Training for the Street

[Uke]

Nice post, Judo Jibboo.

Keeping in mind that kyokushin is a TMA that isn't rooted in weapon skills, its hard to call it an urban combative. Most styles of karate and jujitsu in the past 50 years groomed men to be hardcore hand to hand fighters. Many men until this day believe that the measure of a man's prowess comes from his ability to win empty hand.

Of course karate has weapons, and many practitioners with high skills in using them, but if you take a look at how TMA karate was built, those were not the skills that the curriculum were built around. There are few full contact tournaments that allow weapon combat. The majority are forms competitions. And the high level weapon skills don't come until the student has reached mid-ranged black belt level.

I wrote all the above to say that just because kyokushin is hardcore karate doesn't mean that it is more than what it is. The art of the hand and foot.

Personally, I am an admirer of the founder because of his fierce determination and commitment to his pursuit of mastery. He attained a level of conditioning and mastery that to my knowledge hasn't been duplicated since. He is the bar that you should measure kyokushin by. Oyama didn't need a head shot to win a real fight. He could break your ribs with one blow. He could break your arm if you blocked. He could break a man several ways without ever having to attack the head. I'm sure there are students out there who have approached his level, but I haven't heard of one that actually matched it.

If a kyokushin fighter actually reaches or even approaches the level of the founder, he is a weapon. Yes, he will have some habits that don't mesh well with weapon work which is the reality of urban combatives, much in the same way that former kickboxing legends have developed bad habits in the ring but turn to combatives after their career ends.

But, if a kyokushin fighter has put in the time to condition his body in the manner that Oyama did, the way he hits is very different that what most have felt before. 270 fights against other karateka, wrestlers, boxers, judoka, jujitsu and kung fu fighters, and most ended with JUST ONE punch.

IMO, true kyokushin is Oyama's way of commitment to conditioning the human body to the point where having to pick targets no longer matters. Only connecting cleanly.

I guess my specific question is this: It's an obvious trade-off, so is there a line where it is worth it to give up your arsenal of eye-gouges and groin strikes to gain the benefits of sport training? If not, what kind of drills or other training methods do you employ to be sure you will be able to deploy your dirty fighting?

First I think it should be understood that conditioning is usually a choice. Most RBSD schools don't demand that their students get in top physical shape, but they offer programs that are geared towards that end. Its up to the student to take advantage.

Sport TMA styles are competitive, which demands a higher level of athleticism. This is an obvious advantage, but not on exclusive to sport MA. Its just that competition forces competitors to raise their game, while there are RBSD schools that just enforce a strict balance of conditioning and technique.

I'm not sure I'd call what Oyama did a sport. His level of conditioning was meant to end fights, not compete in them. Seeing some kyokushin schools today doesn't reflect what Oyama did and accomplished.

The idea of one hit/one kill really doesn't apply to most schools anymore.

[WildWest.]

This is a good question Judo Jibboo.

Your sparring training for the street should contain everything that you may use, including all the dirty techniques. How you deploy these techniques safely during training however is the obvious issue here. This is where you may have to pull techniques i.e. jab at the eyes but not strike the eyes, knee in the groin but stop short, strike for the throat but again stop short. All these should be done when the opening becomes available for them.

I understand there will be those that will argue that its bad training to pull anything because you will fight like you train. However it's a moot point because what you are doing when using these dirty techniques in training is you are conditioning the mind to attack vulnerable targets anyway possible when they become available. This should hopefully force the "I have to obey the rules" mentality sport MA's condition their fighters with out the window. It doesn't mean you can't spar/wrestle hard, because you should, but rather helps you understand and appreciate the no rules scenarios that go with combative training.

[Troll Virus]

Ok, so it's a topic that generates a lot of "discussion" around here, "How do you best train for a street encounter?"

You can't !

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

get the point? not so hard really.

lol, yes i do get the point 'cause that's pretty much my thinking on the subject.

[Tom Yum]

Training for the street

Here's my 0.015 pesetas...

1. Train with dudes who like the same MA's you do AND have also been on the street. When you train and hang out with them, they will tell you some of the stuff they've seen. Most of the dangerous stuff isn't the one on one; the level of violence and intent on the street can go further. How do you know if they've been on the street? They won't openly say it, but you can smell it or see it...

2. Spar/grapple under different circumstances. Go for a long, gruelling run then spar. Work two on one, three on one drills. Get the emotional escalation going - the sense of real danger and intent. Find friends who train and are good actors to pick up the psychological heat! Hell, train from inside of your car if your friends are cool enough to participate. The criminal mind is such that they will choose either a target they perceive to be physically, mentally weak or at a vulnerable moment.

3. Train with weapons. You may have to cross-train to get this.

4. Don't hang out on the street. Avoid bad places. As Mr. Miyagi says, "Best way to fight...not be there"

[DickHardman]

inmop the eyegouge/combatives type stuff should be supplemetal to sport training. thats how you can get the best of both worlds. you need a platform/delivery system to better your chances of pulling off those more lethal techniques that cant fuilly be practiced. for example you would use the speed, timing, and accuracy of boxing to be able to parry shots and deliver devastating throat/neck strikes etc. you can use the positioning of jiu jitsus or wrestling to hold a guy down and tear at his eyes or try to break his neck/limb. get the point? not so hard really.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Ok, so it's a topic that generates a lot of "discussion" around here, "How do you best train for a street encounter?"

I was just watching a bunch of Kyokushin clips on youtube and pondering this. Kyokushin has most of the standard limitations for a striking sport, plus no punches to the head since they fight bareknuckle. Training within these rules they probably develop a few bad habits that will cause missed opportunities in a street fight, but on the other hand, Kyokushin fighters (just like boxers, Thai boxers etc.) have incredible power and timing, they're tough as nails, and perhaps most importantly they can manage an adrenaline dump.

I guess my specific question is this: It's an obvious trade-off, so is there a line where it is worth it to give up your arsenal of eye-gouges and groin strikes to gain the benefits of sport training? If not, what kind of drills or other training methods do you employ to be sure you will be able to deploy your dirty fighting? The usual argument for sport fighters is that they train exactly the techniques they will deploy in a fight, they know each technique inside and out. How do you reach that level of proficiency for a groin strike short of picking fights with strangers whose procreation chances you care nothing about?

What about a sport fighter who later undertakes that urban combatives training? Are the habits of a Kyokushin blackbelt so ingrained that it would be harder to teach him to deliver a punch to the head or neck than it would be with someone who had no previous martial arts experience?

It's probably coming off sounding like I'm biased towards the sport side, which I really don't intend. It's likely my ignorance of the urban combatives type training that leaves me not being able to picture effective methods. The best I've seen are those full body armor pads that let you wail on a guy any which way you want, but as far as i know those aren't common equipment for a school.