Training for the Street

[jubaji]

you are DEFINITELY in no position to ever call me or anyone for that matter uneducated.

I'm calling you that.

[jubaji]

If you want to act like an asshole, I'll treat you like one.

In ANY match where there is a BJJ player, as soon as he gets with something cleanly he falls back into the guard position. Whether he pulls his opponent into his guard or just lays there hoping for his opponent to come into his guard doesn't matter.

Second, you're a 19 year old kid who has about a year and a half training in BJJ and even less than that in Krav Maga, so don't come here talking like you know shit because you don't.

Yep, same old shit from the same old pUke...

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

The only real difference between the early UFC's and today's Pride and UFC is that:

1)People are more versed in dealing with the guard.

and

2)They are professional athletes who are in professional athlete shape to give us bouts that won't look as sloppy and the fighters won't simply be hugging 5 minutes into the matches.

These are the only differences? I must disagree, but come on, surely you don't really think that Uke?

[Uke]

This is quite true. The early UFC's showed that when the pressure's on the combatants "lost" their training in their styles and reverted to haymakers and wild brawling.....basically he who made contact first usually won. It does tell you something. Perhaps it tells you that despite all the theoretically practical techniques that you can learn in MA's, if you don't possess timing you don't possess anything.

Very well said!

When you look at most of the old masters, they were all small men. What was it that made them so formidable? They struck first. They struck fast. And they struck with everything they had.

[Uke]

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned after people started to flat out beg him to stop trolling our threads and forums. sadly though, after 6000+ posts of one liners and insults, two or three legit posts really isnt going to change people's perspective of you.

he is still in the same category as matt blake and nutter, even if he himself really wasnt pretending to be those people on a different screen name.

You're not the first person to suggest that, and you're probably right.

[Uke]

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW SOMEONE "PULL GAURD" IN AN MMA MATCH!

My point wasnt that you say BJJ guys take the fight to the ground, or that they would wnat to grapple instead of strike or anything about that,

Its that you need to stop assuming BJJ people instantly pull gaurd, honestly read what im writing here, dont write a fucking story about something else, and about how you dont usually read what I write, grow up, in general BJJ PEOPLE DONT PULL GAURD IN STREET FIGHTS, they dont pull gaurd in mma fights.

I'm not talking about whether they grapple or take it to the ground, im talking PULLING GAURD, a simple act. They dont do it, get it out of your head, and stop spewing it as something they do.

This is coming from someone whos trained Judo, Boxing, and RBSD systems as well as BJJ, its just fucking stupid.

Edit; upon re-reading this I just think that your an uneducated idiot whos spouting his mouth off without knowing what each term implies..

Pulling gaurd is when you go from standing and jump and wrap your legs around the person, or drag them down into your gaurd.

Re-gaining gaurd or something when your already on the ground IS NOT pulling gaurd, and in general its a decent tactic when someone is smashing you. I know if you could magically stand up from mount that would be great, but most of the time you cant, so you regain some form of gaurd and stand up from there.

I honestly hope thats the case and you dont believe that BJJ guys Pull Gaurd (using your newfound actual definition).

First off, I didn't start off by being nasty or unreasonable with you, SamuraiGuy. If you want to act like an asshole, I'll treat you like one.

In ANY match where there is a BJJ player, as soon as he gets with something cleanly he falls back into the guard position. Whether he pulls his opponent into his guard or just lays there hoping for his opponent to come into his guard doesn't matter. The point was that a BJJ fighter is going to get into the position he is most comfortable in once he's overwhelmed or tagged cleanly. Pay attention.

Second, you're a 19 year old kid who has about a year and a half training in BJJ and even less than that in Krav Maga, so don't come here talking like you know shit because you don't. And with you only practicing the rudimentary shit that you do, you are DEFINITELY in no position to ever call me or anyone for that matter uneducated.

[jubaji]

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned .

Oh yeah, I'm terrified...

[Tom Yum]

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. I see you're back to you little dick ways again. At least you're being true to yourself. Only someone with a 1 inch penis could find the time to haunt and harass other men on the internet consistently.

Good luck with that.

Damn, both you guys keep mentioning male privates in your posts.

[Uke]

I certainly don't think that Oyama's goal was to be a proficient sport fighter, but kyokushin today seems very similar to judo in practice, i.e. the sport element is a primary factor in attaining the art's higher goals.

Oyama didn't train to compete in sports, Judo Jibboo. He trained to end any confrontation. Period. Remember, he fought in 270 no rule matches in his career and ended most of them fast with one punch. And that's not counting with the Gracie math either. His level of conditioning, strength and ability crossed the line of fanaticism early on in his life. You won't see training like his today.

[Uke]

Well in the early UFCs i don't think many of those guys had fought anyone outside their respective styles (some looked like they'd never been hit before for that matter). There's something of a rhythm to fights you see within the same style. Karate guys are used to seeing karate reactions to their attacks, same goes for Muay Thai, boxing, and so on. When those reactions weren't presented, alot of training went out the window, and i think that's when you saw people becoming brawlers. I think this has been remedied to a large extent in MMA now as you still see guys with solid foundations in one art who are ready for anything within the boundaries of MMA rules.

The only real difference between the early UFC's and today's Pride and UFC is that:

1)People are more versed in dealing with the guard.

and

2)They are professional athletes who are in professional athlete shape to give us bouts that won't look as sloppy and the fighters won't simply be hugging 5 minutes into the matches.

[WildWest.]

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Seems to most people that in every instance that happened except for BJJ. And the only reason that it was different there was because the flailing and brawling wasn't happening once you tied someone up on the ground. That doesn't mean that it required any more skill. It just means that there aren't two way brawls from the guard. The guard and mount do a good job of smothering punches and hand strikes, but nothing against a blade. Every good BJJ man would prefer to end a fight quickly IF and I mean IF he could. But we see them consistently flop to the guard once they get hit.

What does all this mean?

It means that whether you're a kyokushin fighter or a BJJ player, you'll fight like you've trained. I'm sure you can try to make some adjustment on the fly, just like Nogueira tries to box guys he can get away with trying it against, and kyokushin fighters may compete in K-1 and hit in the face. But when it all comes down to it, when they get in the thick of it, they'll fall back on the core of what they know.

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

This is quite true. The early UFC's showed that when the pressure's on the combatants "lost" their training in their styles and reverted to haymakers and wild brawling.....basically he who made contact first usually won. It does tell you something. Perhaps it tells you that despite all the theoretically practical techniques that you can learn in MA's, if you don't possess timing you don't possess anything.

[SamuraiGuy]

I don't believe that I bashed anything.

Excuse me if I don't raise my cup to celebrate everything that you and some others here feel is important.

I have acknowledged that every style/system has worth and effectiveness.

If my opinion isn't to your liking, then don't read what I write or respond to it.

Notice ... I don't usually respond to you? Or on the MMA forum? Or to anything that is written by forum members who never write about the arts, and only offer commentary?

My post on this topic was for judo jibboo, not for every MMA zealot who feels the need to raise the flag and discuss what I feel in the context that they feel comfortable doing it.

Its amazing that after all the debates you'd call that example ridiculous when its demonstrated in nearly EVERY MMA match. Whatever dude. But this isn't about MMA. Its about who would make what adjustment if the need came for it. But making an minor adjustment and fighting like a differently trained man are two different things.

A kyokushin fighter suddenly deciding to punch to the face is alot different than a BJJ player suddenly deciding to fight on his feet against a better striker when his training is solely in BJJ. VERY DIFFERENT. The difference is in moving your punch up about a foot as opposed to fighting completely out of your element.

That was the other point.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW SOMEONE "PULL GAURD" IN AN MMA MATCH!

My point wasnt that you say BJJ guys take the fight to the ground, or that they would wnat to grapple instead of strike or anything about that,

Its that you need to stop assuming BJJ people instantly pull gaurd, honestly read what im writing here, dont write a fucking story about something else, and about how you dont usually read what I write, grow up, in general BJJ PEOPLE DONT PULL GAURD IN STREET FIGHTS, they dont pull gaurd in mma fights.

I'm not talking about whether they grapple or take it to the ground, im talking PULLING GAURD, a simple act. They dont do it, get it out of your head, and stop spewing it as something they do.

This is coming from someone whos trained Judo, Boxing, and RBSD systems as well as BJJ, its just fucking stupid.

Edit; upon re-reading this I just think that your an uneducated idiot whos spouting his mouth off without knowing what each term implies..

Pulling gaurd is when you go from standing and jump and wrap your legs around the person, or drag them down into your gaurd.

Re-gaining gaurd or something when your already on the ground IS NOT pulling gaurd, and in general its a decent tactic when someone is smashing you. I know if you could magically stand up from mount that would be great, but most of the time you cant, so you regain some form of gaurd and stand up from there.

I honestly hope thats the case and you dont believe that BJJ guys Pull Gaurd (using your newfound actual definition).

[DickHardman]

as for sport arts being effective or not, here is a picture of usa and thai soldiers learning muay thai in thailand from a master. these soldiers arent training for mma/kickboxing matches either......

"Muay Thai or Thai Boxing is a self-defense technique that was developed and tested in battle by the ancient warriors of Thailand. Today, the Thai military as well as the U.S. SEAL teams and members of the CIA continue to use its effective striking techniques. In addition, it is also the National Sport of Thailand. "

"The Royal Thai Army (including Master Sgt. Satit Sitparsert in the center) shares the hand-to-hand combat art of military-style Muay Thai with soldiers from the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corp as part of Exercise Cobra Gold '97 in Tak, Thailand on May 15, 1997."

http://members.aol.com/Thaiboxing2000/

[DickHardman]

Caught in another lie, jubaji.
Read and see your more civilized side.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showpost.php?p=260901&postcount=7

I don't know what happened, but somehow your neurosis has gotten the better of you again and you're back to using tourette's syndrome to communicate.

Oh well.

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned after people started to flat out beg him to stop trolling our threads and forums. sadly though, after 6000+ posts of one liners and insults, two or three legit posts really isnt going to change people's perspective of you.

he is still in the same category as matt blake and nutter, even if he himself really wasnt pretending to be those people on a different screen name.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Well in the early UFCs i don't think many of those guys had fought anyone outside their respective styles (some looked like they'd never been hit before for that matter). There's something of a rhythm to fights you see within the same style. Karate guys are used to seeing karate reactions to their attacks, same goes for Muay Thai, boxing, and so on. When those reactions weren't presented, alot of training went out the window, and i think that's when you saw people becoming brawlers. I think this has been remedied to a large extent in MMA now as you still see guys with solid foundations in one art who are ready for anything within the boundaries of MMA rules.

Even this isn't a necessary short-coming of all sport arts though, good structuring of the rules can make a huge difference. There is a lot of room for variation in the rhythm of a judo match because aside from a few restrictions on gripping and only being able to lock the elbow, very little that falls under the title "grappling" is prohibited in a judo match. MMA has done this for striking and grappling together. With an eye toward self-defense the rules of a sport match can prevent some bad habits for the street as well, for example, you'll get penalized for fighting bent over in a judo match. Even though it's fine from a grappling point of view, the rule is there because in real life you'd get pummelled by knees.

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Again, I'm not familiar with RBSD training methods, but what I wonder is how much more likely is it for someone to revert to these instinctive brawler responses if all they've ever done is step drills?