Training for the Street

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Nice post, Judo Jibboo.

Keeping in mind that kyokushin is a TMA that isn't rooted in weapon skills, its hard to call it an urban combative. Most styles of karate and jujitsu in the past 50 years groomed men to be hardcore hand to hand fighters. Many men until this day believe that the measure of a man's prowess comes from his ability to win empty hand.

Of course karate has weapons, and many practitioners with high skills in using them, but if you take a look at how TMA karate was built, those were not the skills that the curriculum were built around. There are few full contact tournaments that allow weapon combat. The majority are forms competitions. And the high level weapon skills don't come until the student has reached mid-ranged black belt level.

I wrote all the above to say that just because kyokushin is hardcore karate doesn't mean that it is more than what it is. The art of the hand and foot.

I don't disagree at all. Kyokushin is not an urban combative, which is precisely the contrast I'm getting at, but I must admit that I wasn't even thinking of weapons here. I guess the parellel to something like kyokushin or boxing in the realm of weapons would be something like the Dog Brothers. You certainly wouldn't want to be trading blows like you see them do if it were knives instead of sticks, but that element of realism is exchanged for learning to apply angles of attack and good footwork under pressure.

Personally, I am an admirer of the founder because of his fierce determination and commitment to his pursuit of mastery. He attained a level of conditioning and mastery that to my knowledge hasn't been duplicated since. He is the bar that you should measure kyokushin by. Oyama didn't need a head shot to win a real fight. He could break your ribs with one blow. He could break your arm if you blocked. He could break a man several ways without ever having to attack the head. I'm sure there are students out there who have approached his level, but I haven't heard of one that actually matched it.

If a kyokushin fighter actually reaches or even approaches the level of the founder, he is a weapon. Yes, he will have some habits that don't mesh well with weapon work which is the reality of urban combatives, much in the same way that former kickboxing legends have developed bad habits in the ring but turn to combatives after their career ends.

But, if a kyokushin fighter has put in the time to condition his body in the manner that Oyama did, the way he hits is very different that what most have felt before. 270 fights against other karateka, wrestlers, boxers, judoka, jujitsu and kung fu fighters, and most ended with JUST ONE punch.

IMO, true kyokushin is Oyama's way of commitment to conditioning the human body to the point where having to pick targets no longer matters. Only connecting cleanly.



First I think it should be understood that conditioning is usually a choice. Most RBSD schools don't demand that their students get in top physical shape, but they offer programs that are geared towards that end. Its up to the student to take advantage.

Sport TMA styles are competitive, which demands a higher level of athleticism. This is an obvious advantage, but not on exclusive to sport MA. Its just that competition forces competitors to raise their game, while there are RBSD schools that just enforce a strict balance of conditioning and technique.

I'm not sure I'd call what Oyama did a sport. His level of conditioning was meant to end fights, not compete in them. Seeing some kyokushin schools today doesn't reflect what Oyama did and accomplished.

The idea of one hit/one kill really doesn't apply to most schools anymore.

I certainly don't think that Oyama's goal was to be a proficient sport fighter, but kyokushin today seems very similar to judo in practice, i.e. the sport element is a primary factor in attaining the art's higher goals.

I don't mean to get too focused on kyokushin though, boxing, judo, muay thai etc. would make equally good examples.

[jubaji]

Read and see your more civilized side.

I gave you a chance, but here you are back to your old ways of just repeating the same tired dogma again.

[Uke]

Yes, with "others" worth having a dialog with. You do not rise to that standard, pUke.

Caught in another lie, jubaji.
Read and see your more civilized side.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showpost.php?p=260901&postcount=7

I don't know what happened, but somehow your neurosis has gotten the better of you again and you're back to using tourette's syndrome to communicate.

Oh well.

[jubaji]

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. .

Yes, with "others" worth having a dialog with. You do not rise to that standard, pUke.

[Uke]

= pUke is aware of his physical inferiority and wants to think that walking around with a knife he's never used somehow negates his personal shortcomings.

Okay. I've been gone for a little while. Last I remember you were actually trying to have dialogue with others. I see you're back to you little dick ways again. At least you're being true to yourself. Only someone with a 1 inch penis could find the time to haunt and harass other men on the internet consistently.

Good luck with that.

[Blue Wave Gym]

my two cents

since I started do ma I've laways had a will this help in a street fight frame of reference hence my sometimes dissapointment with tma.I've been a fighter as well as a bouncer and been into altercation as a private citizen as well. I think I would fight a person the same way in the ring or street sure the ta tics might be slighlty different if elbows or face punching weren't allowed in a competition.I don't think what technique you use is as important as how you use it i.e. mentalit and that is where a fighter has an edge he is accostomed to people trying to ko him. A cop or bouncer would have good practicle experience but they are limit to escalation of ofrce issues. In mma or mt/kickboxing I would use punches elbows knees and kicks the same in the street. punches/elbows to the face/jaw knees to the body and low kicks. if it went ot the ground I would try to slam the guy into something or the ground then ground and pound. I would try to avoid going to the cement at all costs lol.

[jubaji]

blocks and responses that aren't as effective in a society where guns and blades are the trump cards.

= pUke is aware of his physical inferiority and wants to think that walking around with a knife he's never used somehow negates his personal shortcomings.

[slayer31]

train for the streets and adapt them to the ring if need be.

[Uke]

I don't believe that I bashed anything.

Excuse me if I don't raise my cup to celebrate everything that you and some others here feel is important.

I have acknowledged that every style/system has worth and effectiveness.

If my opinion isn't to your liking, then don't read what I write or respond to it.

Notice ... I don't usually respond to you? Or on the MMA forum? Or to anything that is written by forum members who never write about the arts, and only offer commentary?

My post on this topic was for judo jibboo, not for every MMA zealot who feels the need to raise the flag and discuss what I feel in the context that they feel comfortable doing it.

Its amazing that after all the debates you'd call that example ridiculous when its demonstrated in nearly EVERY MMA match. Whatever dude. But this isn't about MMA. Its about who would make what adjustment if the need came for it. But making an minor adjustment and fighting like a differently trained man are two different things.

A kyokushin fighter suddenly deciding to punch to the face is alot different than a BJJ player suddenly deciding to fight on his feet against a better striker when his training is solely in BJJ. VERY DIFFERENT. The difference is in moving your punch up about a foot as opposed to fighting completely out of your element.

That was the other point.

[SamuraiGuy]

Dude Uke, bash BJJ all you want or whatever,

But get it out of your head that all BJJ people do when faced with a situation is pull gaurd, its just fucking ridiculous, thats like my saying

"All TKD guys do when faced with a fight is to throw a JUMP SPINNING DRAGON FIRE STORM KICK and proceed to get their ass kicked"

or...

"All WW2 guys do is try to poke people in the eyes"

Its just ridiculous, if you take one small aspect of the art and say everyone is going to do it, its just ridiculous. The only BJJ blackbelt I know yells at people when they pull gaurd from standing, or if they pull gaurd in MMA or something when they have the chance to stand in base.

Its just a ridiculous assumption, stop using it.

[DickHardman]

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

lol, here we go again.

[Uke]

Looking back though, when the shit hits the fan like in the first couple of UFC's, karate looked like judo which looked like boxing which looked like kung fu which looked like muay thai which ALL looked like toughman brawling.

What does that tell you?

It says that if a man isn't proficient at what he does, it all looks like the same shit on any given day. In the beginning of NHB events, guys didn't know what to expect. They ran off adrenaline and the idea that they might actually get to kick some ass and win some money doing it. We saw ninjitsu, JKD, karate, kung fu, muay thai, savate, and TKD. These guys all started out using their so-called "styles" but like Mike Tyson said: "Everyone has a plan until they get hit". And how true that is!

Once they saw that their "style" wasn't working for them they abandoned what they'd learned and went back to school-yard brawlin'.

Seems to most people that in every instance that happened except for BJJ. And the only reason that it was different there was because the flailing and brawling wasn't happening once you tied someone up on the ground. That doesn't mean that it required any more skill. It just means that there aren't two way brawls from the guard. The guard and mount do a good job of smothering punches and hand strikes, but nothing against a blade. Every good BJJ man would prefer to end a fight quickly IF and I mean IF he could. But we see them consistently flop to the guard once they get hit.

What does all this mean?

It means that whether you're a kyokushin fighter or a BJJ player, you'll fight like you've trained. I'm sure you can try to make some adjustment on the fly, just like Nogueira tries to box guys he can get away with trying it against, and kyokushin fighters may compete in K-1 and hit in the face. But when it all comes down to it, when they get in the thick of it, they'll fall back on the core of what they know.

I recognize the parallels that this debate has to the "MMA lacking RBSD qualities" debate. It seems that this is drifting towards that direction. Seems that some people still want to give a cow balls and call it a bull. Good luck.

[Uke]

Granted.

However, a kyokushin is more likely to fight a man using unarmed tactics and rules rather than tactics and techniques that apply to the reality of street violence ala weapons. A kyokushin fighter probably would go for the head. He'd do a lot of things in a fight for his life, but he'd also make a lot a mistakes like using traditional blocks and responses that aren't as effective in a society where guns and blades are the trump cards.

So yeah, the kyokushin fighter would try to aim for the head. I'm sure he could make a target adjustment. But could he fight like capoeira fighter with only kyokushin training? Could he fight like WWII combatives expert with only kyokushin training? Would he respond like a BJJ fighter and pull guard with only kyokushin training?

The answer is still no. You are what you are. You may increase the intensity of your attack. You may add targets in which you will attack. But in the end, you will be what you are, and you are what you've trained in. Even if a kyokushin man was as powerful as Oyama, he would still only be what he's trained in. He would be a kyokushin fighter with immense power.

[WildWest.]

I'm sure a Kyokushin trained Karateka would punch to the head if the opportunity presented itself too. Everyone, whether you are in MA's or not, knows that the head is a great target to hit.

[SamuraiGuy]

Just one thing...

The OP asked if we thought that Kyuoushin guys would start attacking the head if they were given the option, or would they forget to do it because its ingrained in them not to.

Of course they would attack the head if it was the most viable option, using an example of another martial art, everyones favorite (especially in the Urban Combatives section) BJJ, when they start training MMA and are allowed to punch to the head on the ground, they punch to the head on the ground, while they may not be doing it the best way or whatever, they take that option because its there, even if its not a part of their original art.

Seems silly to think that anyone wouldnt attack the head because they've been trained to attack other parts of the body. They might know how to attack other parts of the body, but i'm sure if you got into a street fight with a kyoushin guy and left your chin out there, he'd prolly smack it for you.