Training for the Street

[WildWest.]

I think it's too bad UFC turned pro as it was much more interesting as a bareknuckle slugfest, and more educational. Sure we have good athletes and good fights now but somethings missing.

Interesting posts guys.

[SamuraiGuy]

I can't honestly say that about SamuraiGuy. He's usually just a dumb little kid who needs to defend ideas that he feels that I'm attacking, but he at least contributes.

I missed this originally....

Uke, whenever I have an issue, its usually over a statement you make that is either uninformed (the pulling gaurd thing) I dont care how effective BJJ is, they dont pull gaurd (remember the real definition I gave you) and I wanted you to stop spouting off about that. I'm sure you wouldnt appreciate it if I went around posting that WW2 combatives people, or whichever system/blend/thing you train is, involved you falling to your back. You wouldn't appreciate it cause its not true, just as its not true in BJJ, very few fights (mma or street) involve BJJ oriented people choosing to be on their back, I can think of one MMA fight, thats it. And as we all know, it was a tactic he could use in that fight, I doubt he would do it in a bar. (It's dean lister btw, versus Sakara).

The only other thing I've taken offense to is when you agreed with someone (thus making it as your stance on the issue as well) when they called MMA something along the lines of a brawl, or non-skilled fight, or something like that.

Which it clearly isnt.

Third, I may be a dumb little kid, but I reckon thats better than being a bitter old man. And I cant be that dumb all the time, because I've gotten one or two reps from you in the past, and maybe even one or two, or cant count how many from people you agree with 90% of the time. Most noticeably Boar.

Anyway, I'm gonna go do a 150 burpees, then who knows what other form of challenging body weight exercise, then go to bed. Make sure u polish that knife of yours up real good, who knows, you might need it one day.

[SamuraiGuy]

Second, you're a 19 year old kid who has about a year and a half training in BJJ and even less than that in Krav Maga, so don't come here talking like you know shit because you don't. And with you only practicing the rudimentary shit that you do, you are DEFINITELY in no position to ever call me or anyone for that matter uneducated.

When have I ever posted how long I've trained anything? I've posted that im 19, I've posted that I've trained BJJ, Krav Maga, Judo, Boxing, MMA, Wrestling, and others... but when have I ever posted credentials or time spent doing something.

Where did you get this year and a half figure from? And where did you get the "even less" for Krav Maga from.

Enlighten me.

[jubaji]

keep digging that shit-hole, its really working for you....idiot

I love it when jubabji attempts to act tough.

Where have I done that here?

like he'd ever step foot in front of someone who's wiling to beat him unconscious and talk the shit he talks here.

Another thing that exists only as theory for little pUke.

[Uke]

I love it when jubabji attempts to act tough, like he'd ever step foot in front of someone who's wiling to beat him unconscious and talk the shit he talks here.

Interestingly enough, I noticed that in jubaji's "Young Man's Tale" he didn't talk any shit at all to the guys who were letting him and his friend know they were going to kick his ass, which just goes to show that he's toughguy online, but a pussy in real life. The man slapped the shit out of jubaji, and he stood there saying nothing. Yet you come online and act like a badass towards people who discuss MA.

Yeah ... you're real tough, jubaji. Keep up with the internet bravado. Its working.

[jubaji]

aho

Keep repeating yourself, punk.

[Uke]

Oh my, you are just wonderful.


What a fucking joke. You've only ever said one thing that you just keep repeating, in one form or another, over and over and over ad naseum.

That would be one more thing than you've ever said, pee wee.

[Uke]

Let me be clear in case I've said some conflicting things that are causing confusion: I don't consider high level sport competition to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. Sport competition is a vehicle, just like the drills and scenarios you're talking about training in another post. I happen to consider it a very important vehicle, but nothing more. So, sport competition will not reflect 100% the reality of the street, and should not be expected to.

Agreed. I think too much is being made of the street without actually discussing the differences. The truth is, the segregating factor between what separates street from high level sport competitions are the mindset and movements that address 3 things:

Weapons
Multiple attackers
and being constantly aware of your surroundings

Sports or more specifically sport combat take none of these three factors into consideration when building and molding a fighter. Period. They don't need to. They have fixed rules and environments that do away with the need to address those factors. So no one should expect sport to reflect even 51% reality. 50% is the physical, while the other 50% are the three mentioned factors on top of a survivors mindset vs a sport competitors mindset. They are not the same.

Jigoro Kano had this same idealistic approach to weight class in early Judo competition, there was none! And why not, right? Isn't judo all about being able to beat bigger, stronger guys? Yes. But how do you accomplish that? You've gotta know some tricks that they don't! Throwing a 300 pound thug or even a 300 pound martial artist from another school is very different from throwing a 300 pound fellow judoka.

It's the same in MMA. They all know and train to defend each other's tricks. It's why you hear "MMA" being spoken of like it's a style itself now. I don't know much about the history of the early UFC, but i would place my bet that the introduction of weight classes occured as a result of the shift away from style vs. style format. I know it's a hard thing for some martial artists to hear, but if all other things are equal then the guy with a 50 pound weight advantage is going to win. To beat bigger, stronger people you have to have some tricks up your sleeve, which is pretty much percluded by the current format of MMA.

Very seldom do you see a unique "trick" in NHB competition, Judo Jibboo. The fighters are becoming cookie cutter clones of each other and that's why the fights are as competitive as they are. They all thai box until the get in close enough to grapple. Then someone either gets rocked, or someone scores a takedown. That's the MMA mold that these events have created. There used to be more diversity in styles and background. Now most of the young guys are coming up from MMA gyms that teach them from jump street to fight in the MMA format. Its not that they found a set of techniques that "works", because other styles work also. They just invented a new ring style that makes the fights more competitive and pleasing to watch. That's seem to be what you were saying above. When you fight someone from your own school, its more competitive because you train the same. It will look more organized and skilled because its more of a chess match. But when you face other people who's skills and habits you are unfamiliar with, it looks sloppier and less of a chess match, and more of a melee to gain a superior position. And that's why its the unconventional NHB fighters that rule the events like Crocop, Fedor and Nogueira. They have base skills in other styles from which to draw from. And they've mastered those base skills. They didn't just crash course them like the cookie cutters. Jack of all trades/master of none.

Yeah, but this isn't a pro Muay Thai fighter against an amatuer karate studio student, it's pros against pros. As long as they're trained to the same level it still should be an accurate representation. It's kinda like if you've ever watched AAA ball. It's about as fun to watch as pro ball usually, cause they're all on the same level. On average, the pro Thai boxer vs. pro karateka is going to look similar to the amatuer Thai boxer vs. amatuer karateka.

It won't be an accurate representation. If I took two guys who have novice boxing skills, meaning a solid year of training and gave them gloves and put them in the ring, you would not get an accurate representation of what boxing offers. That's a fact. 9 times out of 10 both their footwork would be shitty, there would be little to no slipping. They would have an undeveloped sense of timing and distance. Their stances would be probably the only thing that they'd have half way decent at that point. The same would go for guys in pro shape at that point in training, except for the fact that they wouldn't fatigue half as fast, and its fatigue that leads to sloppiness. They'd be able to at least focus for longer periods of time to maintain good form and take directions because in pro level shape, your mind and body are BOTH stronger.

When people see combat sport arts performed at that level, they assume that if they take some lessons that they will be equally formidable as the men that they see on television. What they don't realize is that unless they're trained to the conditioning level of those men, their techniques won't be very effective at all. That's why the first UFC's made the switch from Joe's to Pro's. The fighting looked less sloppy using Pro's. The matches went on longer because the Pro fighters didn't exhaust as fast. They kept better form and technique because they weren't wheezing and panting. They became bout fighters, or men who fought for multiple rounds instead of who got incapacitated fastest.

[jubaji]

If you look at just 2% of the posts that I write, there's more education in those posts than in everything written combined.

Oh my, you are just wonderful.


What a fucking joke. You've only ever said one thing that you just keep repeating, in one form or another, over and over and over ad naseum.

[jubaji]

Are you still alive, Sagacious Lu? What rock did you crawl out from? You appear out of nowhere after zero contributions to beat your chest, and then you return to whatever dark hole you came from satisfied that you ran you mouth a little bit.

You just love to tell everyone their "contributions" aren't up to your standards, which is hilarious.

[Uke]

You've just demonstrated that you're willing to shoot your mouth off about "pulling guard" even though you have no idea what the term means. Not only that, you're so caught up sniffing your own poo that you don't realize that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no point in trying to have a meaningful conversation with you because you're too ignorant and too arrogant for it to be worth the time.
That's a year and half more valid training than you have you undeducated jack ass

Are you still alive, Sagacious Lu? What rock did you crawl out from? You appear out of nowhere after zero contributions to beat your chest and stick your head further up jubaji's ass, and then you return to whatever dark hole you came from satisfied that you ran you mouth a little bit.

I can count on one hand the number of posts that you and jubaji have written that show any knowledge or insight to martial arts and still have 3 fingers left over. I can't honestly say that about SamuraiGuy. He's usually just a dumb little kid who needs to defend ideas that he feels that I'm attacking, but he at least contributes.

If you look at just 2% of the posts that I write, there's more education in those posts than in everything you and your little dick companion jubaji have written combined. SamuraiGuy can tell you that.

While Uke's thread was highly controversial, I didnt agree with everything in it, people yelled, flamed, I'm sure somewhere out there someone cried (omoplata?) that thread is gonna teach you alot more than 85% of the shit on this forum.

I dont agree with Uke on everything, I dont have to like him, doesnt mean I shouldnt respect his view, and try to learn something from him, because I'm sure I can.

And even without SamuraiGuy stating that, if you and pee wee had something of value to say you wouldn't always have to be disrespectful to mask the fact that you don't know shit. And you don't.

I've been here for 3 years and jubaji has been doing the same shit to various people. I can't take it personally because he's a fucking idiot wherever he goes and to whoever he speaks to. Sagacious Lu isn't much different. He's just not as witty as jubaji, and that's sad.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

You've got to be kidding, right? Either there is some humor that I'm missing or maybe you're not understanding my point, which would surprise me. If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments. Period. If a 120lbs man couldn't defeat a 220lbs man using "system A" no matter how long and hard he trained, then "system A" isn't meant for combat. Its meant for competition where the 120lbs man can be successful fighting other 120lbs men.
Creating weight classes in events that are supposed to simulate reality sends the message that you'll always be fighting someone your size in the street. Let's see how some of the best little guys do against some of the best big guys.

Let me be clear in case I've said some conflicting things that are causing confusion: I don't consider high level sport competition to be the pinnacle of martial arts training. Sport competition is a vehicle, just like the drills and scenarios you're talking about training in another post. I happen to consider it a very important vehicle, but nothing more. So, sport competition will not reflect 100% the reality of the street, and should not be expected to.

Jigoro Kano had this same idealistic approach to weight class in early Judo competition, there was none! And why not, right? Isn't judo all about being able to beat bigger, stronger guys? Yes. But how do you accomplish that? You've gotta know some tricks that they don't! Throwing a 300 pound thug or even a 300 pound martial artist from another school is very different from throwing a 300 pound fellow judoka.

It's the same in MMA. They all know and train to defend each other's tricks. It's why you hear "MMA" being spoken of like it's a style itself now. I don't know much about the history of the early UFC, but i would place my bet that the introduction of weight classes occured as a result of the shift away from style vs. style format. I know it's a hard thing for some martial artists to hear, but if all other things are equal then the guy with a 50 pound weight advantage is going to win. To beat bigger, stronger people you have to have some tricks up your sleeve, which is pretty much percluded by the current format of MMA.

Creating a breed of professional athletes also lends a bullshit factor when you speak in terms of how effective a system would be for street defense. They're professional athletes!!! If you see a pro Muay Thai fighter fight a amateur karate studio student, it would be a lot like Pro's vs Joes. These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man that they could simply wrestle an unarmed guy for 3 minutes with no submissions and the average man guy would probably pass out from sheer exhaustion.
So when you see a pro fighter using kickboxing or BJJ, you're seeing it at its highest level. You're not going to look like what you're watching. Your students aren't going to perform like what they've been led to believe you're teaching. If average people go out and street fight with MT or BJJ they'll look a lot more like Roland Payne and Christophe Leninger than Ernesto Hoost and Rigan Machado.

Yeah, but this isn't a pro Muay Thai fighter against an amatuer karate studio student, it's pros against pros. As long as they're trained to the same level it still should be an accurate representation. It's kinda like if you've ever watched AAA ball. It's about as fun to watch as pro ball usually, cause they're all on the same level. On average, the pro Thai boxer vs. pro karateka is going to look similar to the amatuer Thai boxer vs. amatuer karateka.

[Sagacious Lu]

In ANY match where there is a BJJ player, as soon as he gets with something cleanly he falls back into the guard position. Whether he pulls his opponent into his guard or just lays there hoping for his opponent to come into his guard doesn't matter. The point was that a BJJ fighter is going to get into the position he is most comfortable in once he's overwhelmed or tagged cleanly.

You've just demonstrated that you're willing to shoot your mouth off about "pulling guard" even though you have no idea what the term means. Not only that, you're so caught up sniffing your own poo that you don't realize that you don't know what you're talking about. There's no point in trying to have a meaningful conversation with you because you're too ignorant and too arrogant for it to be worth the time.

Second, you're a 19 year old kid who has about a year and a half training in BJJ and even less than that in Krav Maga, so don't come here talking like you know shit because you don't. And with you only practicing the rudimentary shit that you do, you are DEFINITELY in no position to ever call me or anyone for that matter uneducated.

That's a year and half more valid training than you have you undeducated jack ass

[jubaji]

Its all about the dirty fighter mindset, not the fair fight mindset. When you begin to think like a dirty fighter, you look for every opportunity to tear the life out of the man in front of you. You respect no rules. No distance. No unspoken agreements. You dig deep and get ready to do your worst. You use any and everything to inflict as much damage as you can. And what makes it much worse for the other guy is that you've been training under pressure to do your worst.

So dramatic! Once again pUke shows that "its all about" theoretical training with rubber knives and bad acting role play exercises.

[jubaji]

Well, most people would say that he would simply stab the guy .

How many people have you stabbed, pUke?