Training for the Street

[jubaji]

If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments.


These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man .

Yep, more repetition and stupidity. That's pUke all right.

[Uke]

that wasnt him trying to be civil, it was him desperately trying to start some actual threads in fear of getting banned after people started to flat out beg him to stop trolling our threads and forums. sadly though, after 6000+ posts of one liners and insults, two or three legit posts really isnt going to change people's perspective of you.

he is still in the same category as matt blake and nutter, even if he himself really wasnt pretending to be those people on a different screen name.

Turns out that you were right. Jubaji must have made 10 different topics about arbitrary bullshit in the span of 60 minutes. I guess he must have made his "I'll be a good boy" quota and now he's back to his old bipolar ways.

I've never seen a man stalk and harass other grown men on the internet before. You think jubaji is listed on the Megans Law website? I wouldn't be surprised as this guy is strange. By reading what he writes here I wouldn't be surprised if jubaji had to take the walk of shame and ring every one's doorbell on his block to let them know that he's moved into town.

[Uke]

While i try to collect myself, riddle me this. How does a RBSD/Urban Combatives guy train to avoid falling back into bad brawling when the heat is suddenly turned up?

Well, most people would say that he would simply stab the guy

But the truth is that anyone can fall back into bad brawling if they don't believe in their training. And a student can't and will not believe in his training if he hasn't tested it under extreme pressure.

What you ask is like asking a police officer or army sniper "How do you continue to use tactics even when the heat is turned up?"

Its all in the training. The training has to be alive. It has to have pressure. It has to first teach you the worst case scenarios, and then put you in those scenarios with people who will attack you with real force. You have to know what it is to be hit hard. You have to know what it is to be choked out. You have to know the fear of being accosted by more than one person. You have to know what it is to feel an adrenaline dump. You have to know what its like to throw your best shot and it pay no dividends. But most of all you must learn how not to quit. You have to drill all these scenarios over and over for years until you become desensitized to the fear that these situations bring and become more focused on following through with a course of action.

Its ALL in the training. That's why there are no brawling tactics in RBSD. At least not in mine. Brawling uses up most if not all of your energy in less than 60 seconds. There are no macho boxing exchanges. Its all about the dirty fighter mindset, not the fair fight mindset.

When you think like a fair fighter, you're actually giving you're opponent a chance. Exchanging. Respecting distance and power. When you begin to think like a dirty fighter, you look for every opportunity to tear the life out of the man in front of you. You respect no rules. No distance. No unspoken agreements. You dig deep and get ready to do your worst. You use any and everything to inflict as much damage as you can. And what makes it much worse for the other guy is that you've been training under pressure to do your worst.

When you think like a dirty fighter, judo jibboo, you won't allow yourself to brawl because you'd be giving too much to your opponent. Even if he blindsided you, as long as he doesn't knock you out, you control your emotions and try your best to keep the distance and get inside where you've trained to use your tools.

[DickHardman]

bottom line is, if you arent sparring against fully resisting opponents on a consistent basis and if you arent getting you ass kicked by someone better than you, then you arent really getting any better.

for me, all that combative stuff is just supplemental. you can stand there and pretend to do devastating techniques to eachother like ashida kim if you want, but when it comes time to fight there is now way you are going to be able to use any of those techniques on a guy trying to stomp your face in.

[Uke]

Yes, there are plenty of changes since the beginning that were detrimental as far as realism goes, mostly due in one way or another to making it more "palatable" in general. I have to say that the weight class thing could be argued either way though, putting two guys in a ring with all other things being relatively equal, that highlights the style's attributes. If a 300 pound bjjer fell on top of a boxer and smothered him, that wouldn't really discredit boxing as a preparation for confrontation.

So my disagreement would be that some possitive things have come out of it too ! As the Gracies are so fond of chanting, it proved that your game is not complete if you have not prepared in one way or another for a grappler. As a result fighters have become more aware of threats from outside their own styles. I find that particularly important because i see it as one of the major pitfalls of the martial arts that typically you only get to fight people who have been trained to react the same way you have.

Fighters cross-train and have a much bigger box of tools at their disposal during a fight.

Yeesh, i dunno, the differences seem so significant i guess i wasn't prepared to answer this question In general the fighters are smarter, more well rounded, and more dynamic, beyond that i'll have to get back to you.

You've got to be kidding, right? Either there is some humor that I'm missing or maybe you're not understanding my point, which would surprise me. If you must be relatively the same size as the man you're fighting to be effective, then what you're learning is predicated upon fixed and fabricated environments. Period. If a 120lbs man couldn't defeat a 220lbs man using "system A" no matter how long and hard he trained, then "system A" isn't meant for combat. Its meant for competition where the 120lbs man can be successful fighting other 120lbs men.

Creating weight classes in events that are supposed to simulate reality sends the message that you'll always be fighting someone your size in the street. Let's see how some of the best little guys do against some of the best big guys.

Creating a breed of professional athletes also lends a bullshit factor when you speak in terms of how effective a system would be for street defense. They're professional athletes!!! If you see a pro Muay Thai fighter fight a amateur karate studio student, it would be a lot like Pro's vs Joes. These men don't have to know a whole lot to beat the average man because their conditioning is so superior to the average man that they could simply wrestle an unarmed guy for 3 minutes with no submissions and the average man guy would probably pass out from sheer exhaustion.

So when you see a pro fighter using kickboxing or BJJ, you're seeing it at its highest level. You're not going to look like what you're watching. Your students aren't going to perform like what they've been led to believe you're teaching. If average people go out and street fight with MT or BJJ they'll look a lot more like Roland Payne and Christophe Leninger than Ernesto Hoost and Rigan Machado.

Yes, learning BJJ does plug the hole in your game if you know no newaza. I agree. It was an overlooked aspect of street fighting mostly due to the good sense of those who aren't afraid to wrestle but are afraid to be stabbed. A hole nonetheless though.

As far a crosstraining goes, I'll PM you.

Great talking to you, Judo Jibboo.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

And whoever left me my latest rep (I'm thinkin' Hardman)
1) thanks for the laugh and
2) the answer is very much yes, it would make a top 5 list of my favorite things

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I'm sure he did! There is value in sport competition. There is high level of athleticism and skill involved in sport competitions. Once of my cousin's students is the world karate champion and has been ranked #1 for years, but he can fight too.

Maybe I'm missing your point. Be so kind as to help me understand what it is that you're trying to convey.

Sigh, i'm not sure i know my point myself anymore I think this Oyama stuff was all a clever ploy to throw me off my game

While i try to collect myself, riddle me this. How does a RBSD/Urban Combatives guy train to avoid falling back into bad brawling when the heat is suddenly turned up?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Well I could go on.

The weight limits negate any real evidence of how well a style prepares a fighter because he is fighting a man at or close to his own weight and height.

The introduction of rounds eliminated the continuity of the bouts.

The bouts are far, far more focused on ground wrestling.

More rules have been introduced such as no kicking a man in the head when he's down, no strikes to the groin, etc. (Look at how Gracie vs Shamrock ended).

The fighters are younger and stronger.

The goal of putting style vs style has changed.

The atmosphere has dramatically changed. Fighters are relaxed now because they feel no urgency to win. It used to be that when Big John yelled" Let's get it on", the fighters wanted to immediately get in and get out. Fights weren't lasting 10 minutes(excluding Gracie). Guy came in with their best foot forward and gave their all. You rarely see that now. They pace themselves as if it were a boxing match until it goes to the ground or someone gets rocked.

Some fighters had begun getting in incredible shape very fast. I don't know how thorough these events test for steroids or other enhancers, but they've already caught Josh Barnett once. There are a few out there that fit the criteria still.

But hey, it is what it is. What is it that you disagree about, Judo Jibboo?

Yes, there are plenty of changes since the beginning that were detrimental as far as realism goes, mostly due in one way or another to making it more "palatable" in general. I have to say that the weight class thing could be argued either way though, putting two guys in a ring with all other things being relatively equal, that highlights the style's attributes. If a 300 pound bjjer fell on top of a boxer and smothered him, that wouldn't really discredit boxing as a preparation for confrontation.

So my disagreement would be that some possitive things have come out of it too ! As the Gracies are so fond of chanting, it proved that your game is not complete if you have not prepared in one way or another for a grappler. As a result fighters have become more aware of threats from outside their own styles. I find that particularly important because i see it as one of the major pitfalls of the martial arts that typically you only get to fight people who have been trained to react the same way you have.

Fighters cross-train and have a much bigger box of tools at their disposal during a fight.

Yeesh, i dunno, the differences seem so significant i guess i wasn't prepared to answer this question In general the fighters are smarter, more well rounded, and more dynamic, beyond that i'll have to get back to you.

[jubaji]

Guy came in with their best foot forward and gave their all. You rarely see that now.

Unbelievably stupid, even for you.

[jubaji]

Fighters are relaxed now because they feel no urgency to win.

Wrong, and stupid.

[jubaji]

too much bliss!

Well I could go on.

The weight limits negate any real evidence of how well a style prepares a fighter

Wrong. (again)

[Uke]

Uke, look at my words that you quoted yourself in that response, i know Oyama didn't train for sports. I have not used Oyama as an example in support of my argument because he does not have much particular bearing on the discussion. I don't know how he got to be such a central element of the discussion.

On the other hand, he did start the sport competitions in Kyokushin, which originally included punches and elbows to the head which he removed to be able to safely continue fighting at the same high level of intensity, so maybe Oyama did see the value in compromising certain elements in exchange for vigorous sporting competition.

I'm sure he did! There is value in sport competition. There is high level of athleticism and skill involved in sport competitions. Once of my cousin's students is the world karate champion and has been ranked #1 for years, but he can fight too.

Maybe I'm missing your point. Be so kind as to help me understand what it is that you're trying to convey.

[Uke]

I'm calling you that.

You also call yourself a man but we know you use the term loosely, pee wee.

[Uke]

Well I could go on.

The weight limits negate any real evidence of how well a style prepares a fighter because he is fighting a man at or close to his own weight and height.

The introduction of rounds eliminated the continuity of the bouts.

The bouts are far, far more focused on ground wrestling.

More rules have been introduced such as no kicking a man in the head when he's down, no strikes to the groin, etc. (Look at how Gracie vs Shamrock ended).

The fighters are younger and stronger.

The goal of putting style vs style has changed.

The atmosphere has dramatically changed. Fighters are relaxed now because they feel no urgency to win. It used to be that when Big John yelled" Let's get it on", the fighters wanted to immediately get in and get out. Fights weren't lasting 10 minutes(excluding Gracie). Guy came in with their best foot forward and gave their all. You rarely see that now. They pace themselves as if it were a boxing match until it goes to the ground or someone gets rocked.

Some fighters had begun getting in incredible shape very fast. I don't know how thorough these events test for steroids or other enhancers, but they've already caught Josh Barnett once. There are a few out there that fit the criteria still.

But hey, it is what it is. What is it that you disagree about, Judo Jibboo?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Oyama didn't train to compete in sports, Judo Jibboo. He trained to end any confrontation. Period. Remember, he fought in 270 no rule matches in his career and ended most of them fast with one punch. And that's not counting with the Gracie math either. His level of conditioning, strength and ability crossed the line of fanaticism early on in his life. You won't see training like his today.

Uke, look at my words that you quoted yourself in that response, i know Oyama didn't train for sports. I have not used Oyama as an example in support of my argument because he does not have much particular bearing on the discussion. I don't know how he got to be such a central element of the discussion.

On the other hand, he did start the sport competitions in Kyokushin, which originally included punches and elbows to the head which he removed to be able to safely continue fighting at the same high level of intensity, so maybe Oyama did see the value in compromising certain elements in exchange for vigorous sporting competition.