wha is difference betwen street defense and sport combat techniques

[Blue Wave Gym]

please explain this to me
sport combat:
punches
kicks
knees
elbows
submissions
chokes
throws
street defense:
punches
kicks(kicking knee joint)
knees
elbows
submissions(breaking the joint/limb to immobilize)
chokes
throws
open hand strikes
hitting the throat
preassure point attacks
biting,eye couging,finger jab to eye
I really don't see that much difference betwen the two groups
because you could defend yourself with punches,kicks, knee elbows,submissions,chokes,throws
how much do you need to drill the other stuff and do you really need it.What wrong with just beating the crap out of an attacker with the afore mentioned techniques?

[WildWest.]

Technique wise there's not a lot of difference on the surface.

For street defence though, you are recommended by many experts to put aside a handful of your strongest, fastest, and simpliest techniques and become very bloody good at them so that when a fight kicks off you can deliver them quickly, efficiently and with accuracy.
I would personally recommend open hand strikes like straight right/left and a palm hook, an elbow technique, knees and simple low kicks to the knees, thigh, or shin area. These kicks can be done in a stamping motion, Thai kick motion or side kick motion. There's nothing fancy about them, only practicality and they are taught so that you hit your opponent in his vital, "dirty" spots. This also includes adding dirty techniques as well and training to add them to your mindset.
I also like chokes and strangles, and, although maybe getting a little technical, some good takedowns like trips or sweeps. I also like restraint techniques but in a real fight an RBSD class will teach you to go in and fight like a fucking animal until your opponent is finished or until you can get away. So some solid striking skills should definitely be your main arsenal. Sport MA fighters tend to play with their opponents a bit more in order to find their weaknesses and then attack them. In the street you probably don't have the time to do that. Although plenty of sport fighters can, would and do very well on the street.

You also mentioned pressure points. In my opinion they are totally impractical for street fighting because they involve too much fine motor skill and you cannot find the vital spot when you are under attack and someone is trying to punch your head in. They have their place more in restraining someone, but even then they are a bit iffy.

RBSD also teaches a more holistic view of self defence rather than just focussing on techniques. You should learn awareness drills, how the body reacts to the adrenal dump,, how to react under pressure, how to use adrenaline to your advantage or to your opponents disadvantage, how to use their distracting techniques against them, how to keep an opponent at a distance using fencing, how to combat the "shakes", how to hit pre-emptively, how to avoid a fight from kicking off, multiple opponents, dealing with weapons, fighting in normal clothes rather than a gi, using your environment to your advantage etc. I'm sure there's more but this is what I could remember of the top of my head. Sport MA's don't teach much of these.

I hope this helped you. I know what I want to say but tend to ramble a bit. People such as Thai Bri, Boarspear, Mike Brewer, Uke and a few others understand the difference a lot better than me and can probably explain them better too.

[Tant01]

Intent. That is all.

[simplestudent]

In sports, you are held by certain rules. On the street, it's whatever works.

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[Uke]

Intent. That is all.

I would probably say that you are 80% correct. We don't always see eye to eye Tant01, but that right there is short and to the point wisdom.

But its not all intent.

I have to disagree, and I'm a little surprised that you wrote that. If you have an Olympic level judo competitor intent on hurting a guy with a knife, the judo man will most likely suffer a serious injury if not death, unless he runs.

If you put an Olympic Tae Kwon Do competitor who has intentions of hurting the same guy with a knife, the result most likely to play out is the same.

Same with boxing, kickboxing/muay thai.

Same with wrestling/sambo/BJJ.

Now what you said could be true if you made your statement a bit more clear to some people who may not read into it well. Intent, or at least the way the term will be digested in the context of this discussion, is seen as the thoughts, emotions and objective that a man will focus on when engaging an opponent or when being engaged.

Intent, in the way that it supports your statement, means that your skills and conditioning revolve around the way you intend on dealing with force. Meaning that the way a wrestler is taught to deal with force is to wrestle it. The way a judo player is taught to deal with force is to unbalance it and throw it. The way a muay thai fighter is taught to deal with force is to low kick, knee and elbow it.

The way a RBSD practitioner is taught to deal with force is all of those things, but in a direct method intended to bring about an end to any confrontation very quickly. Its dirty and not pretty, but NO sport rules are ingrained into a practitioner's response. And because we are speaking about Urban Warfare and not competitive combat sports, its important to understand that the difference is indeed in intent. The techniques of Urban Warfare reflect vicious intent, which is why many RBSD systems are labeled as "too brutal" or "overkill". The intent is to win at any cost while taking the least amount of damage. And the mindset that goes along with those techniques are equally vicious in intent.

The goal in sport combat is to train hard, watch tapes of your opponent, devise a game plan based on your opponent's strengths and weaknesses, improve your conditioning and plug the holes in your game that you know your opponent will exploit. You know you can get hurt in sport combat, but no one fears the worst although its possible. All competitors know ahead of time what their opponent's intentions are. And all competitors respect the referee's instructions. It should also be mentioned that sport competitors are in professional level shape because of the money the tournaments generate, which frees up all the time they need to train to that level and more importantly STAY at that level.

In RBSD, you have none of those luxuries. You don't know who your opponent will be. Most people don't attack people that they don't think they have a good chance of beating. There are no preparations like viewing films and training to exploit a specific weakness. You just have to be overall vicious, dirty and a quick closer. You don't know your opponent's intentions at all, which is why we assume the worst and there isn't much room for measured responses. And a street attacker isn't going to respect any one's instructions unless they have trumped him and his associates. It should be mentioned that RBSD practitioners are not on a whole as physically fit as sport competitors. The majority have neither the money backing or the time which makes pro level conditioning for average joes unlikely. They cling to weapons because weapons are the most expedient way to end a confrontation, and weapons equalize to a degree the gap in conditioning if your approach is intelligent when using them. But that's a one way door. Olympic level conditioning won't equalize a weapon.

For some reason, people here just don't put emphasis on the fact that facing a guy that looks like Quinton Jackson or Chuck Liddell in the ring is a entirely different ball game than facing them on a dark, city street at 2:00am once the bar has closed. The psychology alone from their appearance, stature and more importantly THE UNKNOWN FACTORS LIKE INTENT AND WEAPONS will give you an immediate adrenaline dump and if you haven't got experience with dealing with that, you can fall to pieces no matter what you've trained in. You don't learn that in sports because that level of fear doesn't exist in a ring or on a mat. You're not fighting for your life. That's another important factor that many refuse to acknowledge.

Proficiency at using weapons and empty hand tactics to defend against weapons is the Berlin Wall that segregates RBSD from sport combat. And while the weapon skills of RBSD may be the same as some FMA's, the approach is and should be different as many but not all FMA styles are predicated and focus on dueling. Going back and forth for extended periods of time with sticks or knives isn't any more practical than brawling empty hand. The point of weapons are to end a fight quickly, so dueling very much defeats that aim.

But overall, as "in a nutshell" answers go, that was a pretty good one, Tant01.

[Tom Yum]

Intent, in the way that it supports your statement, means that your skills and conditioning revolve around the way you intend on dealing with force. Meaning that the way a wrestler is taught to deal with force is to wrestle it. The way a judo player is taught to deal with force is to unbalance it and throw it. The way a muay thai fighter is taught to deal with force is to low kick, knee and elbow it.

The way a RBSD practitioner is taught to deal with force is all of those things, but in a direct method intended to bring about an end to any confrontation very quickly. Its dirty and not pretty, but NO sport rules are ingrained into a practitioner's response. And because we are speaking about Urban Warfare and not competitive combat sports, its important to understand that the difference is indeed in intent.

The techniques of Urban Warfare reflect vicious intent, which is why many RBSD systems are labeled as "too brutal" or "overkill". The intent is to win at any cost while taking the least amount of damage. And the mindset that goes along with those techniques are equally vicious in intent.

Your definition here, while pretty cut and dry, can still get a reaction from different MA folks.

If you can elaborate on the training methods of RBSD it would probably be a bit more receptive.

In a completely different thread, Mike B wrote about a training blade that sends a small shock into its opponent. I think utilizing this kind of technology in a dynamic, spontaneous environment would be a big selling point for your case, versus the fundamentally true but sometimes questionable explanation of "too deadly for the street." Working with the shock knife would show you how potentially vulnerable you are to getting cut.

If you will take some time to spell out your training methods, it will gain alot more respect from MA-ists as a whole.

[Uke]

Your definition here, while pretty cut and dry, can still get a reaction from different MA folks.

If you can elaborate on the training methods of RBSD it would probably be a bit more receptive.

You're probably right, Tom. However, I'm not willing to do that. And the reason is that I have been able to discuss martial arts and training methods thus far without having to advocate anything of my own. I never have, and I'm not going to start now. Its the one thing that no one here can accuse me of violating in an effort to push my ideas, system or business. My system is no secret, and if its worth me writing about, its worth those who wish to learn more to investigate those methods. Plus the fact that I've written about this very topic in much more depth plenty of times on this site. I'm not going to re-write them again because some have forgotten or missed them. I will however post a link to the actual posts that address and elaborate on the issue.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=18800&page=4

Pay attention to posts 46, 54, 59 and 63. Each post goes in depth into a different aspect of combat and reinforces the statements that I've made here.

In a completely different thread, Mike B wrote about a training blade that sends a small shock into its opponent. I think utilizing this kind of technology in a dynamic, spontaneous environment would be a big selling point for your case, versus the fundamentally true but sometimes questionable explanation of "too deadly for the street." Working with the shock knife would show you how potentially vulnerable you are to getting cut.

As far as the shocking knife, its no different than the marker I suggested on the "So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?", and the marker is cheaper. The point is that in RBSD training, the goal is to see the point and stages where you can be harmed. What movements and positions are disadvantageous when it comes to surviving all variables, not just fixed ones.

If you will take some time to spell out your training methods, it will gain alot more respect from MA-ists as a whole.

Honestly Tom, I'm not looking for any respect from this site as there is little to be found here period. Anyone knoweldgeable about the RBSD/UC field already knows about my system. I'm not really interested in trying to popularize what I do as opposed to just exchanging ideas, training methods and learning about new systems and teachers.

If you're sincere about learning or more specifically rehashing facts and points about this subject, I suggest that you re-read those posts as they represent the sum of what I have to say on the subject. I've written little bits here and there since writing those posts, but nothing as in depth because it wasn't necessary.

[Tant01]

INTENT is also a legal term...

I would probably say that you are 80% correct. We don't always see eye to eye Tant01, but that right there is short and to the point wisdom.

But its not all intent.

I have to disagree, and I'm a little surprised that you wrote that. If you have an Olympic level judo competitor intent on hurting a guy with a knife, the judo man will most likely suffer a serious injury if not death, unless he runs.

.....
Proficiency at using weapons and empty hand tactics to defend against weapons is the Berlin Wall that segregates RBSD from sport combat. And while the weapon skills of RBSD may be the same as some FMA's, the approach is and should be different as many but not all FMA styles are predicated and focus on dueling. Going back and forth for extended periods of time with sticks or knives isn't any more practical than brawling empty hand. The point of weapons are to end a fight quickly, so dueling very much defeats that aim.

But overall, as "in a nutshell" answers go, that was a pretty good one, Tant01.

Funny you should type such a lenghty reply to my short comment. Especially considering (and we both know..) I could care less what you think of my response to this TIRED topic.


To elaborate I might add that "intent" is the foundation of your techniques. If your INTENT is to "fight" in the ARENA your techniques will be limited to empty hand "combat"

[Uke]

Especially considering (and we both know..) I could care less what you think of my response to this TIRED topic.

Yeah I know, right? I was thinking the same thing as I typed that response. I'm just too much a man to care about what you think to let it stop me from commenting on something that makes good sense.

Unfortunately that's rare around these parts.

[Uke]

On another note, what topic isn't tired? I mean, what hasn't been discussed to death here?

Most of my writing here and on other forums like this is to work through my own thoughts so that I can articulately explain what's what, the why's and the how's. I can't speak for you guys who come here to simply rep each other and and flex internet toughguy muscles, but I come here to not only get new perspectives on MA, but also express myself in new ways that makes my training and ideas about it easier to teach and convey.

What some here don't understand is that the world is full of teachers that can do it, but can't explain and force their students to "imitate" their movements and take their word for things that they shouldn't have to. And if you can't explain it, you probably shouldn't be teaching it.

The net is an excellent place to exchange and refine your own ideas and encounter and digest new ones. Its a place where you have to leave your physical training behind and use your brain to describe concepts, details and most difficult of all ... movements. That's why I'm here.

I could care less what you think of my response to this TIRED topic.

Don't let me keep you from the fast pace and intense energy of the Indonesian Forum. Nothing there is tired. You can tell by the flood of posts.

Good luck with that.

[jubaji]

Marker Master!!!

I have to disagree, and I'm a little surprised that you wrote that. If you have an Olympic level judo competitor intent on hurting a guy with a knife, the judo man will most likely suffer a serious injury if not death, unless he runs.

If you put an Olympic Tae Kwon Do competitor who has intentions of hurting the same guy with a knife, the result most likely to play out is the same.

Same with boxing, kickboxing/muay thai.

Same with wrestling/sambo/BJJ.

All of which is to say that if you take some scrub (let's call him 'pUke' just for example) with none of the physical skills referenced above and give him a knife that he has never used, he can then walk around with a false sense of security because he's fooled himself into thinking that he has now negated all of his personal and physical shortcomings.

Where have we heard that before?

[Thai Bri]

Lets consider a different past time for a moment - swimming. Lets discuss the differences between the sport variation and the water safety variation.

Imagine two guys on the Titanic.

One is a sports swimming champion. He can power out Olympic times at the front crawl, breast stroke, back stroke and butterfly. He is also a championship diver! When that ship hit that iceberg he performed a beautiful swallw dive and away he went.... until the cold killed him.

The other guy is a life guard. Yes, he can swim pretty well too, but nowhere near as well as our sportsman. But get this. He knows how to make his trousers into a buoyancy aid.... he also knows where the lifebelts are and how to lower the lifeboats.

Which guy would you rather be?

[Tant01]

Wake UP call?

..... I'm just too much a man ....)

Uh huh.... Some day... Maybe?

Until then you just keep right on dreaming...

[jubaji]

So the real message here is that in a SD situation you should always take off your trousers... and make them into a bouancy aid.....

and... um.... hit the guy with your bouancy trousers....and then...

swim...away...?

[Thai Bri]

Yes. Precisely. Either that or get into a boat.