i need help please

[TTEscrima]

All of the above is strictly for information purposes, and was designed to show you how silly fighting of this type is. Your best bet is really to take your case to the police, especially the whole reconstructed jaw issue.

Nice addition after the fact, this WAS NOT here before today Mike. You just added it. Had there been a disclaimer it certainly would have been brought up sooner eh?(And I'd have never bother posting in the thread) ROFLMAO.

No sense beating a dead horse, I'm done here.

[jubaji]

TTExcrement, such a champion.

[jubaji]

People boast about teaching the real deal in self-protection, and they talk a blue streak about "doing whatever is necessary." But then they get all squeamish and wishy washy when someone else suggests something truly underhanded or violent. That shows you're full of shit. Plainly and simply, completely full of shit - if you're one of those people who talks about "doing anything and everything necessary." .

He truly is a theory-boy. Probably been trying to grow his own ponytail for years now.

[kingoftheforest]

If you're pissed at TTE leave the rest of us out of it.

The reason I've taken a recent interest is because I find the exposure of hypocrisy fun. People boast about teaching the real deal in self-protection, and they talk a blue streak about "doing whatever is necessary." But then they get all squeamish and wishy washy when someone else suggests something truly underhanded or violent. That shows you're full of shit. Plainly and simply, completely full of shit - if you're one of those people who talks about "doing anything and everything necessary." You cannot have it both ways, doing both "anything and everything necessary" and "not playing dirty." People in your camp have puffed out their chests before and talked about cheating to win and not playing by the rules because "there are no rules in the street." Yet when someone suggests that there truly are no rules and literally "anything" goes, what do we get? Preachers, Lawyers, and the Mythbusters.

I don't give a rat ass Mike what kind of beef you and TTE have right now but I am respectfully going to say this one more time for the benefit of the cheap seats and non season ticket holders....................................................


By no definition in any court, tribunal, inquisition, or under the monkey bars, will you find anyone condoning poisoning of any kind as an act of self defense.

Self defense is a reaction to an immediate threat. You can't poison someone without premeditation and you have never heard anyone from this camp condone or advise anything close to this. I am not going to sit by and ideally watch you place my name on anything remotely close to poisoning as some kind of bullshit self defense move.

If you gotta plan ahead to get one specific person or group of people it is no longer self defense it is premeditated assault. I practice self defense not head hunting or assassination techniques used by eunuchs and women in ancient Egypt.

Thank you kindly.

[Tant01]

For the matter of fact the guy may as well drink the poison himself and take a few Oxycodone with it to enhance his alcahol... Getting all pissy about some pussy bar tender is hardly worth the stress...

[jubaji]

You don't really think the content of that post was KOTF's original work, do you?

You-know-who is lurking and telling his minions what to say, if not dictating to them word for word.

[kingoftheforest]

Your posts itself speaks volumes more than I could

Well, KOTF, for those who have trouble with their reading comprehension, I never specifically said you did condone poisoning, so take a minute, go untwist your panties, and kindly reserve the self-righteousness for someone else. I also don't remember saying "KOTF" at any time, anywhere in that post. You're reading into it, your distorting what was said, and your temper tantrum attempts to get me to edit this particular opinion are going to be fruitless, I promise.

I was not talking about poisoning. I was talking about "doing whatever it takes to win." That includes premeditative measures. In fact, by virtue of the words I chose, it includes "anything it takes to win."

My point was not that you or anyone else in your immediate vicinity has ever advocated poisoning. My point was that at least one member of your immediate training group has postured up on many occasions with the "There are no rules in a real fight" line. That same member has made it clear on too many occasions to list that "Sport Fighters" and their ilk are dangerously irresponsible because they do not consider the realities of a fight in their preparations. Those same people have suggested that all the things that are illegal in the ring are great starting points for what might work in a real fight.

Then along comes Brewer talking pure, admitted smack and TTE gets all religious about how cowardly and immoral it is to fight dirty. As if that weren't enough, now you come in with the whiny two-step complaining that I've unfairly accused you of something I never actually said, and frankly that's tiresome. I've been nice before. I've talked to you one on one before, and you know I am not one to pull my punches or censor my opinions. TTE insinuated that I am a liar and a fraud because I posted that I've juiced people's drinks with Visine before (which is true - I have). He also insinuated the same when he wrongly stated that I went back and edited in a disclaimer. I did no such thing. He's full of shit - completely - and he didn't read my post. Bottom line. He's wrong. He's mistaken. He's full of shit. I don't expect him to admit that, but it's no less true.

Now, onto your getting all unassed that I'd include you in the "some in your camp" statement...

Boar - someone in his camp - has not only said that but proven himself to be a hypocrite on the subject several times. He lambasted me when I said I'd stab an armed man with a pen, even though that's pretty timid by "do whatever it takes" standards. If you aren't tough enough to read honest critiques of what I see as inconsistent attitudes, then put me on ignore and quit reading what I write. Simple as that. But the fact remains (and you have to admit this if you're being honest with yourself), you cannot say "Do whatever it takes to win in a real fight" or "There's no such thing as cheating when it's for real" and then qualify that statement by saying "except all this stuff over here."

You have to be honest enough to say that either you really do have "no rules," meaning it's as okay to poison someone as it is to beat them with a brick in the restroom as it is to jab them in the nose with a closed fist, or you have to admit that you have some lines that you won't cross because you find them distasteful. You cannot maintain that it's okay to do whatever it takes and then call someone a coward for doing what it takes.

The reason you're so uncomfortable with all of this is that I've just shown you a major hole in your fighting philosophy and training. You thought you had it all figured out and that you really were training for "whatever it takes." But that's just not true, is it? Apparently, there are several things that you're not okay with.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for TTE (and you too KOTF, if you think it's necessary to jump in and insert yourself everytime I mention TTE's "camp") to sit down and make a list of all the things you don't really think are "okay." Jot them all down. You know - like the MMA people did. That way, you'll have your own set of rules to abide by in real fights, complete with the exclusions and prohibitions your particular "sport" requires. I think that process might be healthy. Might shed some light on why other arts advocate some things and not others, and why it's so dangerous for you to go around banging on the "They aren't really training for reality because they have rules" drum all the damned time.

...........................whatever

[kingoftheforest]

But mom I want some cookies

Yeah sorry my post made you throw a hissy fit.

[DJColdfusion]

Ok . . . I don't see a problem with the whole visine thing. If you have no other avenue to resolve the situation then would it be better to give the guy a sick tummy or to use your extensive urban combative/escrima skills and wait for the guy do act on his threats (even beyond breaking your jaw) so that you can pull out one of the half-dozen or so knives that you have hidden among various orifices and stab the guy a few times?

I choose the sour tummy.

[chillaplata]

Agreed. I still think he ought to keep a heavy stick (like a cop's nightstick or riot baton) and a chemical spray (assuming that's legal in Australia) behind the bar and use them if he needs to. The krav instructors ought to be able to help him learn to use the stick.

[kingoftheforest]

Premeditated murder is not self defense

There is always the thought also that if no one else has tried to help you or stop these guys from harassing you that maybe nobody there likes you anyway and it could be a good idea to go away.

But since nobody likes you I guess and you already look like a bitch, poisoning some of them won't hurt your rep.


So if you have no morale compunctions about confusing attempted murder with self defense like some people don't seem to have. Go ahead and use ant poison.
Then when you're doing jail time maybe you can find a way to poison the guys who are ass raping you.

If you didn't respond in an immediate manner whilst being attacked than anything you do from here on out is not self defense by definition and therefore is just petty revenge. If you aren't man enough to stand up for yourself face to face with your assailant then you need to go someplace else till the new town bully runs you off.

There are no rules for self defense but there are rules for not being a chicken shit asshole.

[Tant01]

......

....
There are no rules for self defense but there are rules for not being a chicken shit asshole.

Actually... There are rules for "self defence". In order for the use of force to be JUSTIFIED in the eyes of the court you must be in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death...

Your actions need to seem REASONABLE for the circumstances to a Jury of your peers.

Otherwise it is a criminal act.

[kingoftheforest]

Lifting the fog of absurdity

Actually... There are rules for "self defence". In order for the use of force to be JUSTIFIED in the eyes of the court you must be in IMMEDIATE danger of serious bodily injury or death...

Your actions need to seem REASONABLE for the circumstances to a Jury of your peers.

Otherwise it is a criminal act.

Hmmm that kinda defines spiking someone's drink with anything a criminal act and kicking some dude in the nuts who just swung a pool cue at your head self defense.

Thanks Tant that clears things up nicely.

[Tom Yum]

There is always the thought also that if no one else has tried to help you or stop these guys from harassing you that maybe nobody there likes you anyway and it could be a good idea to go away..

That's always a possibility.

Elaborating from Mike's earlier statements - when it comes to employment, people would rather perserve their own situation than take a risk to watch someone else's back at most jobs, especially considering the nature of a part-time bar job, high turnover at some establishments, competition over tips and casual relations.

Keep in mind, its a gang of several individuals (are they fellow employees? or patrons?) at this guys job that are picking on him.

It doesn't seem like one, two or three guys.

If you didn't respond in an immediate manner whilst being attacked than anything you do from here on out is not self defense by definition and therefore is just petty revenge. If you aren't man enough to stand up for yourself face to face with your assailant then you need to go someplace else till the new town bully runs you off.

Good stuff, KOTF.

[chillaplata]

The law of course varies by state, but generally a person has the right to use such nondeadly force as reasonably seems necessary to protect himself from an imminent use of unlawful force on himself. There is generally no duty to retreat before using nondeadly force in self defense. To justify the use of deadly force to defend yourself, you need to be threatened with imminent death or great bodily harm, and you may also have a duty to retreat. Lastly, if you were the one that started the fight (in the physical sense, i.e. you swung first), you generally cannot plead self-defense unless you tried to withdraw from the fight or your adversary tried to escalate it by pulling a deadly weapon.

So if someone swings a pool cue at your head, you would probably be legally justified in kicking him in the nuts. It's difficult to see how spiking someone's drink, on the other hand, could ever satisfy the legal standard for justifiable self defense. Let's say a Serbian kickboxer comes into your bar and starts talking trash. You know, from previous experience, that he may very well assault you before the night's over. You still are not facing an IMMINENT threat of force in the eyes of the law, so you are not legally justified in slipping Visine into his margarita (even assuming that Visine is not a deadly poison so that there is no risk he will actually die).

Now, you may luck out and get some sympathy from the cops, the DA or the jury. But you can't count on that. So if you are going to try the Visine trick, you might also want to make a habit of giving out lots of free drinks to the local cops, and maybe making an extra donation to the PBA...

Edit: if the OP is still reading this thread, I should note that I have no idea what self-defense laws are like in Oz...the foregoing obviously isn't intended as legal advice...