Which style/art/form am I looking for?

[FLMKane]

Since when was wing chun CIRCULAR!?

[PFSofPA]

Many hand movements are indeed circular. I over-generalized.

[TTEscrima]

Overall, I think the glaring difference is that Krav Maga is linear whereas JKD Concepts is more circular from Wing Chun

I've seen quite a bit of this coming from the PFS camp. And to make matters worse, there are instructors out there who claim Mike Brewer taught them WC. Unqualified people giving advice and lessons on systems they clearly don't comprehend is exactly how arts get bad reputations or become useless. WC isn't even close to circular and yet PFS guys are continuing to tell people it is, worse they believe the rest of their system became circular by practicing an art that's essentially linear, THAT can't be good for their understanding of the rest of Vunaks curriculum either.

[Garland]

TTE...what's your agenda? What's your angle, man? Or are you just here to fling shit on people and institutions while being insolated from attacks on whatever credentials you may have from your position of anonymity?

I have no NEED to step in on anyone's defense, certainly not Mike Brewer, Paul Vunak, or the JKD Concepts camp... I just want to know why you are getting personal. Consider it professional curiosity on my part.

[TTEscrima]

TTE...what's your agenda? What's your angle, man? Or are you just here to fling shit on people and institutions while being insolated from attacks on whatever credentials you may have from your position of anonymity?

I have no NEED to step in on anyone's defense, certainly not Mike Brewer, Paul Vunak, or the JKD Concepts camp... I just want to know why you are getting personal. Consider it professional curiosity on my part.

When people who claim to be instructors give out bad info about arts I teach, I take it personal. I've met and trained with Paul, I used to bring some of my WC class along to his class and we brought him to our school a few times. I don't recall Paul ever calling WC circular or claiming to be able to certify people to teach WC, but I've now seen several PFS people (2 on this board) giving out false info about WC. Add to this, I've got links to websites where people claim to be WC Sifu's taught by Mike Brewer (Mike threatened to ban Boar if he brought it up on the forum after he contacted him in private).

The same Mike Brewer who consistently slammed WC as useless, (yet he certified people in it) and further, he refused to moderate the CMA forum because he claimed he didn't know enough about the CMA's (apparently he knew enough to teach them to others who now claim Sifu status).

I don't mind people training whatever, but when you steal a few concepts and then dismiss everything you didn't steal as useless, well that's BS.
When you then proclaim yourself and your students Sifu's of an art you can't even do the forms for or properly explain it's concepts and theories you need to be called on it. I studied with Paul alongside Boar for a number of years, Paul never exhibited the disrespect for the systems he drew from like I'm seeing from people who claim to have studied under him. I've never heard Paul claim to be a WC Sifu and I know damn well Brewer isn't one from our lineage, yet somehow he now has people claiming Sifu under him? Yeah, people with questionable credentials teaching others to teach the arts I teach piss me off. Hearing a second PFS guy on this forum give out completely incorrect assessments of WC is really starting to make me wonder. Anyone who says WC is anywhere near circular clearly hasn't got a clue about what they're talking about, when this forum is being used to put out incorrect information by a reputable group (PFS) it's time to throw the BS flag and comment on it. I'm not the one putting out incorrect info while teaching under a different flag, I'm just the one calling BS on those doing so. MY professional curiosity is aroused as to WHY the PFS people are going out of their way to misrepresent what WC is. Either it's an intentional misrepresentation or they clearly don't understand the art, either way perhaps they ought to stop using something they either don't respect or understand to describe what they do in their art.

[PFSofPA]

Never said anything about being a WC instructor, just that some of the movements are circular. They are.

[Garland]

Well...that certainly sounds like a meritorious gripe. I would certainly like to see what the pending discussion is...

Mr. Brewer seems to be pretty up-front about things...why don't you pose these questions to him instead of dragging his name through the mud?

I don't know...I just think it would be really cool if we could have all you senior martial arts experts together and glean some insight from cooperation...isn't that type of collaboration part of what this whole board thing is about...not as a vehicle to point fingers or stagnate.

Just a thought from a 23 year old kid sometime martial arts enthusiast who you people owe nothing to.

I just expect more out of you guys. C'mon.

[TTEscrima]

Never said anything about being a WC instructor,

No, you didn't claim to be a WC instructor.

But you are the second PFS instructor on here to call WC circular, and it isn't. Does it contain one or two techniques where the wrist rolls in a circle? YES, does that constitute WC as a circular art? No, not any more than any other art. WC is based on defending the centerline in a direct as possible fashion. Its major components are cross blocks (linear), Palm up blocks, (linear, turning the hand over hardly justifies it as circular), Bong Sau, folding the arm to raise the elbow isn't circular either. Certainly the footwork isn't circular, so exactly what part of WC causes you to define WC as the source of JKD's circular component?

[TTEscrima]

Mr. Brewer seems to be pretty up-front about things...why don't you pose these questions to him instead of dragging his name through the mud?

I tried that, he threatened to ban me too. My screen name made him flip out and I explained it was my initials and an art I practice combined, but it was also an ode to the fact I was aware of his teachings, he said he'd ban me if I brought that up too, so he didn't leave a public option and all the while he used his position here to deride WC while teaching it.

I don't know...I just think it would be really cool if we could have all you senior martial arts experts together and glean some insight from cooperation...isn't that type of collaboration part of what this whole board thing is about...not as a vehicle to point fingers or stagnate.

Bad info is bad info Bro, it hurts both arts when one badmouths another. Discussion of the benefits of an art without slamming its deficiencies is one thing, lord knows every art has deficiencies but it seems the deficiencies of the CMA's are all people want to talk about. Or in this case it's someone attributing a component of their style to a CMA style incorrectly adding another incorrect piece of info to the CMA dog piling.

You don't see me in the JKD, MT or MMA forums comparing them to the CMA's or telling people to practice them like the CMA's, but it's the norm for everyone from those forums to come in here and give advice or commentary regardless of it's correctness.

Just a thought from a 23 year old kid sometime martial arts enthusiast who you people owe nothing to.

I just expect more out of you guys. C'mon.

I'd love an actual discussion that didn't involve, claims of mystical BS or someone demanding "full contact" videos against a "fully resisting" opponent, however, until hell freezes over I'll just have to be content to point out the incorrect assertions.

[Garland]

Okay...so lets see if Mike bans you or if he challenges these accusations out in the open. I'll be seriously surprised if he bans you...this is a little too much drama for me to step into, but I sincerely hope there has been a misunderstanding and that you two can eventually become civil with each other or come to some sort of understanding.

I respect Mr. Brewer very much, and I also respect Boar and his whole camp... I don't know you...but you've so far answered all of my questions and been fairly respectful to me, so in return I offer you the same. I would definitely like to see some of this get resolved in a positive fashion (And it COULD be if EVERYONE would follow their own advice and stash their egos and vendettas in order to TALK) because right now this is ugly...your accusations of Brewer if untrue are slander, and if they are true, it means that he is abusing his position on this forum to shelter himself and he misrepresented himself to students. Bad ju ju all around.

[PFSofPA]

last three paragraphs:
William Lai - Wing Chun Kung Fu - Hidden Power of Sil Lim Tau by Chu Shong Tin

[TTEscrima]

Okay...so lets see if Mike bans you or if he challenges these accusations out in the open. I'll be seriously surprised if he bans you...this is a little too much drama for me to step into, but I sincerely hope there has been a misunderstanding and that you two can eventually become civil with each other or come to some sort of understanding.

It's my understanding Mike and all his posts have been removed from this board along with his moderator status. Anyone whose been reading knows how hard he derided WC in the WC threads, people quoted him in some cases and those are still around.

Here's a quote and a link to one instructor who credits learning his WC from Sifu Brewer while Mike was in Colorado springs (where the majority of his anti WC posting was done before he moved).

"Mr. Welker augmented his studies in the Filipino Arts under the tutelage of Sifu Mike Brewer of Colorado Springs. Under Sifu Brewer, Scott Welker added to his repertoire a myriad of styles like Panatukan (Filipino Boxing), LAMECO Escrima, Wing Chun and Jun Fun Kickboxing."

CCHA Instructors

I respect Mr. Brewer very much, and I also respect Boar and his whole camp... I don't know you...but you've so far answered all of my questions and been fairly respectful to me, so in return I offer you the same. I would definitely like to see some of this get resolved in a positive fashion (And it COULD be if EVERYONE would follow their own advice and stash their egos and vendettas in order to TALK) because right now this is ugly...your accusations of Brewer if untrue are slander, and if they are true, it means that he is abusing his position on this forum to shelter himself and he misrepresented himself to students. Bad ju ju all around.

I tried not to bring Brewer (since he and his posts have been removed) up but since this was the second PFS instructor giving out incorrect WC commentary I couldn't very well mention it without naming the people involved and the history of the discussions. Plain and simple from the link you can see an instructor crediting his WC credentials to SIFU Mike Brewer from Colorado Springs, and yet Brewer's derision of WC and claims of not knowing CMA's and thus not moderating the CMA forums were common knowledge.

[Garland]

...well...this certainly came as a shock to me. I haven't frequented the forums for quite some time, and I rarely ever go into the CMA forum.

All of Mike's posts were removed? Mike was banned???





Deleting all of his posts seems to be a little much...especially because many and most of them were great. I certainly hope they are accessable to somebody, because if they've simply been permanently wiped from the earth, that was throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Lame.

This whole situation sucks.

What a shame, the rapport and wise words, and everything...and then...nada.

I don't know what to think.... !

[jubaji]

TTE...what's your agenda? What's your angle, man? Or are you just here to fling shit on people and institutions while being insolated from attacks on whatever credentials you may have from your position of anonymity?

It's obviously because he's an insecure little mary on a lifelong mission to convince himself of something he doesn't believe.

[Garland]

God...this is depressing. Not even Jubaji's colorful slams are having an effect. I don't know who to be pissed off at. Mike should be held accountable...and that whole thing feels like a betrayle in some odd way...but did the forum really have to go so far as to deleting EVERY post he'd EVER made? God...I hope it wasn't excessive that had to be the ax man...that would've been hard. Shit!

This blows!