Mugging in NYC

[Hardball]

It's nearly impossible to post without mentioning the last several years of nonsense that was spouted, there are still people with Brewers "challenge" etc in their siglines so forbidding people to mention him when others still have his name in every post they make is an odd choice.

Gone. Thanks for pointing that out!!

[kingoftheforest]

Uke first and foremost, awesome thread.

Now here's the kick in the ass............you're trying to explain rocket science to monkeys.

You're getting the same response, a lot of confused looks and lots of shit flinging.


But we commend you for your efforts.

[Uke]

I don’t really understand what you mean by "playing tag". I think I didn’t quite grasp your analogy.

That's what most competing is: playing tag. You hit me, then I hit you back. Most times in sport competition the game seldom ends with the first tag or first exchange.

And the only reason that I use "maybe" a lot is because I am merely an amateur that is speculating on all of this. I’m not going to pass my views off as concrete.

I didn't think you were, Dan. I'm simply saying that you found you evidence while watching the Human Weapon show. It served as a unbiased source for you to see and hear the same information I've been giving you to a certain degree.

I thought that learning some decent RBSD would be better at teaching you how to spot, interpret and avoid a hostile situation better than a BJJ or Muay Thai class would. The "maybe" is there because I have never been to a RBSD class and am judging that purely on reading. But is that really an argument that has no legs?

Understood. I respect that you would write "maybe" for that reason, Dan. And what I meant as far as the argument having no legs was that many of the opposing arguments presented weren't based on anything but pure opinion, which gave those points no legs to stand on. It also meant that I was passed debating points that have already been made.

RBSD systems put focus on those aspects of awareness and avoidance, but I have yet to see a competition art that does. Some TMA's do as well, but they were the RBSD arts of their own time, and avoidance and awareness hasn't changed much over the years. In fact they may have been better at avoidance and awareness hundreds of years ago back when people actually had to learn to defend themselves and survive off the land. Competitive sport combat doesn't bother itself with elements outside the ring(weapons, multiple attackers,etc). Their focus is getting their fighter ready to go however many rounds and win under the rules of the event. They are awesome at what they do, but only at what they do.

That's all I meant.

I'm not having a go at you or anything Uke, I'm just continuing the debate :P

That's fine. Good luck with your training, Dan.

[Dan_The_Man]

Do you see what you're doing, Dan? You've already come to the conclusion that RBSD does those things but you're holding on to the possibility that "playing tag" could be a serious and viable method of dealing with imminent death ... because that's what a man waving a knife or gun is. Make no mistakes about that. You are still writing in "maybe" when you have already seemed to understand that there are different tools for different jobs. The "maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs.

I don’t really understand what you mean by "playing tag". I think I didn’t quite grasp your analogy.

And the only reason that I use "maybe" a lot is because I am merely an amateur that is speculating on all of this. I’m not going to pass my views off as concrete.

May be in situations where you our outnumbered and facing weapons your salvation may lie in the other things that a RBSD class may teach you like awareness and prevention etc. May be an RBSD practitioner might have more of a chance to spot the danger and run or diffuse the situation. And if it comes to a fight then as you said you will fall back on your training.

"maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs

I thought that learning some decent RBSD would be better at teaching you how to spot, interpret and avoid a hostile situation better than a BJJ or Muay Thai class would. The "maybe" is there because I have never been to a RBSD class and am judging that purely on reading. But is that really an argument that has no legs?

I'm not having a go at you or anything Uke, I'm just continuing the debate :P

[Uke]

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April '05 issue of GRAPPLING magazine) ............

This still cracks me up.... LOL

PS I now hate Tant01 for stealing the thunder from the Gracie jab I had in my post. I was typing for crying out loud and BAM! ... there it was when I submitted.

[Uke]

Hello again Uke,

As I said I didn't mean that it was too extreme to be a realistic situation, I just meant that surely there are some situations that you cannot escape no matter your training.

May be in situations where you our outnumbered and facing weapons your salvation may lie in the other things that a RBSD class may teach you like awareness and prevention etc. May be an RBSD practitioner might have more of a chance to spot the danger and run or diffuse the situation. And if it comes to a fight then as you said you will fall back on your training.

Do you see what you're doing, Dan? You've already come to the conclusion that RBSD does those things but you're holding on to the possibility that "playing tag" could be a serious and viable method of dealing with imminent death ... because that's what a man waving a knife or gun is. Make no mistakes about that. You are still writing in "maybe" when you have already seemed to understand that there are different tools for different jobs. The "maybe" is just an attempt to keep an argument alive that has no legs.

You are correct in one regard, Dan. No one has ever stated that modern RBSD creates a bullet proof shield from which you are nearly invulnerable like the Gracies have about BJJ. No one can escape every situation. However that doesn't mean that being well trained won't dramatically improve your odds. Prevention and awareness only go but so far as you should have read in this story.

RBSD is a close quarter expedient solution. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. If it comes down to a fight you've done something wrong or relied on a sport method like muay thai or boxing to bring about a swift end. What happened in this story was a murder attempt, where the so-called victim wound up quickly neutralizing all immediate threats. That isn't a fight in the sense that you think of combat. That was a defensive execution of lethal force. Before any of the muggers could figure out what to do next they were already bleeding on the ground, hoping that help would come to save them.

I watched a very interesting programme on TV. It had a taste of commercial bullshit but had some good points too. It was called Human Weapon. It was basically about a MMA fighter and a wrestler who went round the world trying out martial arts. The most relevant one to this discussion was an episode on Krav Maga. In this episode they had a man attack the MMA guy with a rubber knife attempting to 'stab' him. As Uke said, and I agree, people who train MMA, Muay Thai etc will use this to get out of a physical and hostile situation. This clip confirmed that idea and the MMA guy tried to kickbox his way out of the situation and failed, getting 'stabbed' 11 times.

YouTube - Human Weapon Krav Maga

I've seen all of the Human Weapons, but do you notice how many young people need video clips and such to prove a point? I'm not picking on you, Dan_The_Man. I'm just saying that common sense isn't enough for this visual video generation. They need it to be validated by vid clips and tv shows. I can understand the concept of seeing it in action to put a stamp on it, but then it became a matter of actually requiring a video in order for people to be able to move forward. That's were the folly begins. But yeah ... The KM episode of Human Weapon confirmed what I have been writing.

Have a look for yourself. What it looks like to me is that he tries to keep at a distance with a front kick then when the attacker gets close he clinches! Not the best idea when your facing a guy with a knife but something that surely reflects how his 10 years of MMA training influenced his method of defending against a knife.

You'll execute how you practice. Can't say it enough. Beware of those who try and sell you on the idea that you can be a lion when you've spent your entire life training to be a lamb.

I think it confirms a very good point that Uke seems to continuously express on this forum. That MMA fighters will use their MMA to fight, be it in the ring or faced with a knife wielding attacker. MMA is not designed to equip you with the sufficient knowledge or ability to face those kinds of 'street' situations.

When you speak/write about the facts, they don't ever change. I only seem repetitive because I'm forced to repeat basic and rudimentary principles to those who continuously try to call the aforementioned lamb "lion-like".

And the point about MMA is correct Dan_The_Man, but it doesn't just apply to MMA. It applies to any TMA that refuses to modernize its principles for today's world. People aren't carrying swords, spears or riding horses anymore. Yet there are schools that require students to learn kata and forms that are based on defending against sword and spear attacks, as well as dealing with soldiers on horses.

Many people don't even realize that many of the high flying kicks in tae kwon do come from the Hwarang, who actually had to fight soldiers on horseback. Those techniques were practical back then, but who but fcuking Canadian Mounties are coming at you on horseback nowadays? The art of the Samurai sword greatly influenced kendo and aikido, but even in Japan the sword had been outlawed since the 1800's. The art of the Japanese sword is largely predicated on your commitment to your stroke. That's why aikido practitioners have fits dealing with western boxers, which is the most common method used by muggers.

The point is and has always been that one should live in the times, and in doing so he can live in reality. Those who root themselves in tradition or envelope themselves in the illusion that the police or some other agency will be there to protect us or help us have been sucked into the whole "civilized utopia" propaganda. People get killed by knife and gun shot wounds every single day. The news doesn't report every casualty because if they did, they believe that people would begin arming themselves and training for the very survival that they work so hard to convince us that we supposedly don't have to worry about. Citizens who help other citizens in violent crisis are called vigilantes and locked up. People are put on hold when they call 911. Cops are paid better than school teachers but often times wind up shooting each other. And when they do finally manage to hit a target it winds up being 40 times and the man winds up being unarmed.

Then when you get accosted by three assholes with knives and are left having to use the "politically correct" competition sports you've been practicing for years in hopes of just seeing your wife again ... and you realize then and only then that:

Your coach lied to you about you being able to "take care of yourself". So many coaches exaggerate the effectiveness of what they teach in order to keep people from looking elsewhere for their needs. They fancy themselves "one stop shops".

Your dominance in competition doesn't mean squat when your ass is on the line, because the only way you know how to nullify his efforts is by dragging him to the ground and looking for submission attempts. His two friends will have something to say about that. This doesn't just apply to MMA/BJJ guys. It also applies across the board to traditional martial artists, who also revert back to toughmen once they get hit.

All your sparring and endurance training won't stop the adrenaline rush from exhausting you within a minute or two.

And in the end, when people reflect on how it was explained to them that what they practice does not equip them to end an altercation quickly like the one in the news story, they can no longer pretend that they didn't know better.

[Tant01]

Yeah but Helio says....

......

....I think it confirms a very good point that Uke seems to continuously express on this forum. That MMA fighters will use their MMA to fight, be it in the ring or faced with a knife wielding attacker. MMA is not designed to equip you with the sufficient knowledge or ability to face those kinds of 'street' situations.

"If someone points a gun at you, of course, you will be scared. But jiu-jutsu gives me the equivalent of a bullet proof shield. It protects me from head to toe, plus it gives me the ability to take a gun away."


Helio Gracie. via Doug Jeffrey. (From the April '05 issue of GRAPPLING magazine) ............

This still cracks me up.... LOL

[Dan_The_Man]

How is it too much of an extreme situation when it happened? Did you notice that this is a newspaper report?

Hello again Uke,

As I said I didn't mean that it was too extreme to be a realistic situation, I just meant that surely there are some situations that you cannot escape no matter your training.

May be in situations where you our outnumbered and facing weapons your salvation may lie in the other things that a RBSD class may teach you like awareness and prevention etc. May be an RBSD practitioner might have more of a chance to spot the danger and run or diffuse the situation. And if it comes to a fight then as you said you will fall back on your training.

I watched a very interesting programme on TV. It had a taste of commercial bullshit but had some good points too. It was called Human Weapon. It was basically about a MMA fighter and a wrestler who went round the world trying out martial arts. The most relevant one to this discussion was an episode on Krav Maga. In this episode they had a man attack the MMA guy with a rubber knife attempting to 'stab' him. As Uke said, and I agree, people who train MMA, Muay Thai etc will use their training to get out of a physical and hostile situation. This clip confirmed that idea and the MMA guy tried to kickbox his way out of the situation and failed, getting 'stabbed' 11 times.

YouTube - Human Weapon Krav Maga

Have a look for yourself. What it looks like to me is that he tries to keep at a distance with a front kick then when the attacker gets close he clinches! Not the best idea when your facing a guy with a knife but something that surely reflects how his 10 years of MMA training influenced his method of defending against a knife.

I think it confirms a very good point that Uke seems to continuously express on this forum. That MMA fighters will use their MMA to fight, be it in the ring or faced with a knife wielding attacker. MMA is not designed to equip you with the sufficient knowledge or ability to face those kinds of 'street' situations.

[TTEscrima]

And honestly, the same people you claim like me seem to see value in your friendship.

Guilty as charged, I think you two (you and Tanto1) bring more diversity and experience to the forum than the other 7 members combined. Neither of you advocate suplexing knife wielding attackers, getting drunk once you get your CCW, carrying road flares to throw into cars for SD or poisoning customers of places you work all of which HAVE been advocated here by other members. It clearly pisses people off to have the truth pointed out but when it isn't the board becomes for entertainment instead of the discussion for martial arts and that's exactly the excuse those posters have used when called on their bad advice.

It's nearly impossible to post without mentioning the last several years of nonsense that was spouted, there are still people with Brewers "challenge" etc in their siglines so forbidding people to mention him when others still have his name in every post they make is an odd choice. I realize you'd all like to forget all the BS and embarrassing posts made while he was a mod but allowing people to give him credit while forbidding others to point out the flaws in his stories and advice is self defeating.

[Tant01]

Eh? Not so much a "threat".... chill...

Wait a minute ....

Brewer isn't a mod anymore. So I'm not mod bashing. Why the warning? How is me discussing the things he has said and consistently done in any way a violation? And quite frankly Tant01, I was equally as candid when Brewer was still here as a mod and he never himself warned me or gave me a violation because he knew that no matter how much smack we talked we were in the end just two guys who disagreed.

..... I'm doing anything that everybody else is and has been doing for years.

I'm OK with that.

Be cool ....

Exactly... you know? I'm all "Eh?" like I give a crap? Don't blow it out of proportion. It seems like your refrence to brewer is what ruffled G man's feathers.

Some folks around here like that guy too.

I figure if we can all at least agree to hate Jubaji, we're good! LMAO

[Uke]

SOME folks seem to like you here Uke. Frankly I've avoided banning you because of it. Brewer is gone. You should be happy but you KEEP disparaging him every chance you get.

Leave Brewer out of your posts, eh? (I'm asking nice...)

Thank you.

~Tant01

Wait a minute ....

Brewer isn't a mod anymore. So I'm not mod bashing. Why the warning? How is me discussing the things he has said and consistently done in any way a violation? And quite frankly Tant01, I was equally as candid when Brewer was still here as a mod and he never himself warned me or gave me a violation because he knew that no matter how much smack we talked we were in the end just two guys who disagreed.

So why are you taking my thoughts about him even more personally than he did? I'm not being disruptive and the posts where I mention him ALL have to do with martial arts.

What's the deal?

And honestly, the same people you claim like me seem to see value in your friendship. I have moved passed my issues with you, but if at every turn you're going to start waving the banning flag at me, just make it happen. Posting here ain't that important to me and it would be worth it to be banned if I'm going to be singled out every time I write something that doesn't sit well with you.

You asked nicely. I respect that, but I'm not willing to have a special set of rules applied to me and my posts when you and I both know that just about everyone here(all 8 of them) writes whatever they feel like as long as they don't threaten or get irate.

In my above posts I was neither threatening or irate. So although you were civil in requesting that I refrain from mentioning Brewer, I feel that its unreasonable to ask that of me when I am not stating anything that isn't true and accurate. Hell, you were here for all of what I mentioned! The posts that would serve as proof would be here too if they weren't erased.

So like I said ... if I'm going to have some banning threat looming over my time spent here then its just going to play out that way. If I'm banned, it will be because you let your personal feelings interfere with your job, not because I'm doing anything that everybody else is and has been doing for years.

I'm OK with that.

Be cool ....

[Tant01]

Still mod bashing? LOL

Here we find Garland pulling yet another Brewer move and arguing a point that was never in contention. ....

SOME folks seem to like you here Uke. Frankly I've avoided banning you because of it. Brewer is gone. You should be happy but you KEEP disparaging him every chance you get.

Leave Brewer out of your posts, eh? (I'm asking nice...)

Thank you.

~Tant01

[Uke]

The problem with calling scenario training "reality" is that it's...bullshit.

You are in an environment and in a designated time with set rules and responses to a predesigned situation... you're not behind any reactionary gap, cognitively you are aware of what is going on, and you are in the correct psychological mindset. You don't have to decide NOT to engage a real person with real repercussions...and it's not a surprise.

It's about as real as an MMA match, only it's supporters have the extra pretense.

Here we find Garland pulling yet another Brewer move and arguing a point that was never in contention. I'll clear up this last bit of bullsh!t here because I missed this in the first reply.

No one, at least not me, ever stated that modern RBSD systems successfully recreate every single element found in street combat. No has done that, and quite frankly no one has to. The discussion is about what systems address elements found in the street. This discussion is about which systems adhere to and operate under specific RBSD concepts and principles. "Reality based" is a term used to show where the emphasis in training is placed. Nothing more.

Everything started out as a TMA. How modern RBSD got to where it is today was by seasoned and experienced men choosing, tailoring and discarding the techniques that didn't fit in with RBSD maxims. All techniques come from some system, but the approach to using the remaining CQC techniques that weren't discarded is different from all TMA's.

The idea of dueling and competing goes against RBSD's very core principle. Yet dueling and competing are the very essence of sport arts like Muay Thai/kickboxing, boxing, wrestling and the majority of FMA's. The rules found in those disciplines make it possible for the practitioners to compete and still maintain their fighting form.

Otherwise guess what?

We learned from the first couple of UFC's that without those rules and weight classes every practitioner looks like a toughman that resorts to brawling. Only the guys who went immediately to the ground were able to maintain their fighting form when faced with full on aggression. That's how it was then, and that's exactly how it is now. Except we know that going to the ground in the street is a fool's errand, don't we?

I'm not going to waste any more time disputing statements that I never made.

[Uke]

Dan_The_Man

Love it! Great thread.

I do have to say here, what would anyone do? Maybe 3 (plus knives) vs 1 is too much of an extreme situation. I don't mean that it never happens but I agree with what Garland says, wouldn't luck play such a huge factor in a situation like this? The deciding factor even?

How would you equip yourself for a 3+ (with knives) vs 1 situation? I’m genuinely interested to know. Is RBSD enough?

How is it too much of an extreme situation when it happened? Did you notice that this is a newspaper report?

How can I explain to you what I would do against three armed men? It would require me to speculate like Garland did throughout his entire post. Asking me that is like asking me to tell you a bed time story. I don't participate in that kind of conjecture.

If I saw it coming, I would have many more options like running, talking them down or a preemptive attack once I was sure it was going to happen.

However, if they just swarmed me and I had to defend myself like it happened in this story, I would fall back on my training. That's all ANYONE could do. Any who tells you that they would do this and then do that is a clown who subscribes to fiction. The man in this story didn't have time to think. All he could do is react based upon the years he spent drilling the RBSD concepts and movement into his being. Luck, or rather probability plays a role in life period, but solid training stacks the odds in your favor because you are prepared. Was it luck when the man drew his weapon? Was it luck when it closed the distance and wounded the stabber? Was it luck that once the other mugger saw all this happen, he still could not prevent the victim from wounding him as well? The only luck that occurred in that situation was when the last mugger saw both of his friends fall he was lucky enough to get away before it was his turn. That and the bad luck the bystander had when he ran in without identifying himself.

The story speaks for itself, Dan_The_Man. And the reason I'm being confronted by Garland's doubt and hostility is because the Billy Blanks of the world know that what they have invested their time in, which is basically muay thai and BJJ, wouldn't give them a fighting chance to save their own ass in a situation that wasn't a fair fight. Hey .. they rock in the ring, there's no doubt ... but they roll over in the street. No doubt there either.

You're only as good as your own training, and if you've spent years learning how to surfboard to accomplish your real goal of swimming the English Channel, then don't be surprised if you find yourself in Davey Jones' triangle choke.

You don't train to compete when your goal is to get out of there alive.

Competing only seems as formidable as it does because both participants have agreed upon a set of rules and understand that they have several rounds to get the job done. But if you know anything about street altercations, few if any last longer than a minute, whether weapons are involved or not. Weight classes play a huge role, because when you see NHB competition like the original UFC's without weight classes, the matches were violent and fast paced. That was the only way the smaller guys could win, and that dynamic is no different in the streets.

The exception to that statement would be the Gracie mentality, where 20 of your entourage members make a circle and let you and one other person fight until one can't fight anymore. That is not street fighting. That's a group of guys making rules in the streets because of their sheer numbers to do so. One man with a gun could change that dynamic quickly despite there being 20 Gracies ready to fight with him.

In a world whose major exposure to MA has been kickboxing, judo, karate, BJJ and MMA, I'm not surprised that you seem disbelieving that there are systems tailor made for dealing specifically with street violence. How can you believe in something you've only seen on Youtube and other videos?

And even in those short clips, do you really think you're seeing an accurate representation of a system? You'll see lots of sensationalism when it comes to arts like tae kwon do(high and flying kicks), muay thai(flying knees, and low kicks whose impact makes loud thuds ), FMA(fancy stick and machete flourishes and dancing), kung fu(wushu type acrobatics), BJJ(flying arm bars and sacrifice throws that land you in the mount), and many, many more.

Those are highlights that don't focus on how seldom you actually get to use those maneuvers outside of sparring. They show "eye candy" so that you will believe that an art is capable of doing something that it clearly isn't known for doing. In this case, ending an armed confrontation with three men.

Would you feel comfortable using muay thai against a man with a knife?

Would you feel comfortable using a shoot in order to use BJJ against a man with a knife?

Would you feel comfortable using the fancy flourishes you learn in escrima class against a man who has three friends? Keep in mind this incident took place in the winter in NYC, which means that they all have on thick winter coats ... and your first strike better be your best strike or it could be your last strike.

If you've been practicing muay thai, BJJ and FMA as three different systems to be able to say that you are "well rounded", you are most likely going to choke if you found yourself being mugged because in the traditional sport settings that those three are taught there are no street tactics. There are no street concepts. There is no fear management. There is no emphasis placed on survival. The lessons, content and concepts that segregate RBSD from sports don't exist in those gyms.

You'll be stuck turning up the intensity of your sport combat, which simply means that you'll throw more kicks and more punches. You'll begin throwing them as hard as you can in hopes of landing a big shot. It means that you'll do exactly what you've been training to do in the manner that you've trained. Sport concepts are to pace yourself, control the distance and look for openings, but even those go out the door once your ass is bleeding and you've got to do something quick.

Its ashamed that young practitioners get their ideas about the street on YouTube and magazines.

That's not so much about you, Dan_The_Man, as it is just an observation about young practitioners on this and many other sites. Some of them here aren't so young either.

Go look into what you and I have been discussing privately and after much practice you'll begin to see that one thing is very much not the other.

[TTEscrima]

Outstanding.