Mugging in NYC

[Uke]

Garland

Uke...although I agree with some of your conclusions...I personally think it is sort of cowardly how you've essentially called out Brewer in your first sentence as an example knowing full well he isn't a part of this arguement. Why take potshots at the guy after he got the boot? Is this how you get your final words in on him, when he can't debate his position?

Well you're entitled to your opinion, Garland. Frankly, I never asked you or anyone how they felt about what I wrote about him, nor do I care. And for you to state that it is "cowardly" for me to write what I've written implies that it takes courage to write on an internet forum, which IMO just shows how easily people on this site can be led to lend loyalty and other noble attributes to cyberspace.

Much of what is found in this article refutes many of the statements that Brewer made during his time here. Not that its any of your business, but I chose to mention Brewer, not "call him out"(can such a thing even be done on cyberspace?) because he was looked upon as an RBSD proponent on this site, and he used that position to not-so-cleverly liken MMA's sport approach to RBSD tactics at every opportunity. This article specifically proved my point that once in the fray, a man cannot take time to calculate or plan, as seen by the slain bystander. Brewer argued that point up and down despite being told by several members that he was absolutely wrong. And he was.

And as for this GEM of a statement -> "If you think you're going to wrestle or thai-box a man with a knife and his 2 friends who are also involved, then you're suicidal. "

...um...no...
I'd give them my money, plead and beg for my life...and then if it came to it, I would resolve myself to my fate, Jakie Chan. I sincerely doubt any of the "it's too deadly to practice on another person" WWII RBSD/Cestari/Nelson/Fairbairn refarbished gung-fu tactics would work any better than highly polished against a non-resisting opponent "combat" sport tactics...the result is the same...baring luck, a small miracle, or the wherewithal to get the hell out of dodge, the individual would be dead or in the hospital.

And that's why I love you, bro. You "sincerely" doubt, but you base that doubt on nothing but your own opinions based on severely limited experience. This article is a news article. It's not based on my opinion. It's not based on your opinion. Its based on what actually happened. When you look at the "highly polished" sport-stylings of Lee Murray, Tito Ortiz and Alex Gong, what did it get them???

The result is hardly the same, and as much as you might like to argue the semantics of your theories, the cold hard facts in this news report show that even when stabbed, a well trained RBSD practitioner lives ... and guys who "play" sports die ... or live by mercy, but most times not of their own accord. Every time you hear about a so-called MMA or MT boxer getting into it in the street against someone who really means to hurt them, they wind up dead, unconscious, stabbed or shot. In almost every instance its the same and is the rule, not the exception. We're not talking about two guys throwing punches. We're talking about real intention to cripple or kill ... and that's usually accomplished by using a weapon.

Or... "what would the muay thai guy do after he was stabbed?"
...um...what would you do?
Bleed alot? Not notice immediately and then try to cover up your vitals, and then stumble off and die after the knifer runs off? Freeze up and then go into shock?
How about just keel over if the knife penetrates the spine, the heart, or the main pipelines into the heart? How about losing motor function as the person slices randomly through tendons and ligaments in your upper body and then opens you up?

Clearly you haven't read the article that this entire discussion is based on. The man in this article is a student of one of my teachers. I would have done what he did! What would you have done? Throw muay thai kicks and hope that his friends were so dazzled by your form that they would be unable to join in? When have you been involved in real violence outside of raves or being one of two stoners fighting over the last twinkie? Maurice was sucker-punched with a knife .... and STILL managed to disable his attacker, disable the attacker's friend and chase off the other mugger. Its ashamed that the bystander got killed, but who runs into a knife fight? How would you know what would work in that situation? You wouldn't, but I'm sure you feel comfortable writing about it because even when confronted with hard evidence you still continue to fall back on theory.

Or...you use your ninja-esque reflexes to pull off the split second correct response that allows you to minimize the damage of the initial stab and subdue or kill your assailant. Who ho. Dream on.

Umm ... aside from the "ninja-esque reflex", that's exactly what happened. You must have been high as a kite when you typed this because usually you don't appear this lost when the facts are present.

Realistically, isn't a knifing is going to be defensive and involve wild slashing, or aggressive and be crashing in and thrusting a'la sewing machine...or a single stab from somebody who isn't fully committed to ending you and which may *poof* appear out of thin air when a stranger bumps into you? I mean...you're about REALITY right? Like SURVIVOR?

Realistically Garland, a knifing happens just like it did in this incident. I have to say that it becomes more and more clear that you didn't read the news story in the first post. Either that, or you're challenging the facts in the newspaper because you're feeling quite a bit insecure about the time you've spent training in what your instructor assured you would work in any situation on the mean streets of Salt Lake City.

You want to train for THOSE scenarios...track and field...or falling down and bleeding.

The proof is in the pudding, not in your witty musings. There was a group doing the mugging, not just one person. His chances of out-running them were slim. Furthermore he didn't even get a chance to assess the situation. They were aggressive. They were armed. And they clearly had killer intentions as seen when they started off by knifing him in the abdomen. For all your talk about what would work, you've NEVER been in a situation like that. If we read about you in the paper having been in this situation your name would appear in two places in that day's edition: First in the news story. Then in the obituaries.

Don't kid yourself. You're absolutely right about you not having any other options except for giving them your money, pleading and begging for your life...and then if it came to it, you would resolve yourself to your own fate. If someone relied on thaiboxing and BJJ, that's about all they could do. The funny thing is that while you think that the "mighty and wise Garland!" can find a way out of this situation by diffusing it or complying ... the muggers started off by stabbing the man before words were exchanged. They had every intention of killing him. All your pleas, running tactics and compliance would all have to come after you'd already been stabbed.

Get it, spanky?

You asked what would I do? I would do what Maurice did. I would do what we were trained to do. I would survive. I wouldn't try to tae-bo my way out with "highly polished combat sport tactics" like you suggested. And thank you, Garland. It always makes me laugh when a Billy Blanks wannabe pretends that he can outrun criminals who usually, if nothing else, are fast on their feet from years of being chased by police or other violent criminals.

Yeah, you do that. Get stabbed in your gut or anywhere else for that matter and still manage to outrun three or four guys that have already surrounded you and have every intention of hurting you.

And you had the nerve to liken me to "ninja-esque" bullsh!t. hahaha

The problem with calling scenario training "reality" is that it's...bullshit.

You are in an environment and in a designated time with set rules and responses to a predesigned situation... you're not behind any reactionary gap, cognitively you are aware of what is going on, and you are in the correct psychological mindset. You don't have to decide NOT to engage a real person with real repercussions...and it's not a surprise.

It's about as real as an MMA match, only it's supporters have the extra pretense.

And I wouldn't have even posted on this particular thread but the hypocrisy drew me out...
narrowminded much, guy?

Well, as you can read in the news story, everything that you say that RBSD training doesn't do ... it did for the man in this story. He didn't have to decide NOT to engage a real person as he killed the bystander who ran into range. He wasn't immediately aware of what was going on, but he was able to ascertain it split seconds before he got stabbed and was able to move and not take the stab center abdomen. He was able to draw, defend, neutralize and engage multiple attackers. He, as I always say ... was able to execute like he practiced. He didn't use BJJ. He didn't use muay thai. He didn't use fancy flourishes with his knife. And there's a reason for that which you may never know because you're clearly held captive by your academic love for martial arts instead of being concerned why its a necessary evil in the first place.

The hypocrisy lies only in the fact that you know so little but pat yourself on the back so often for feeling like you are intimate with realities that you've never known. And then to speak with authority about situations and training that you've never experienced is beyond narrow mindedness. Its down right hubris mixed with an equal helping of ignorance.

These kinds of things happen all the time in NYC. The only reason that this particular instance was newsworthy was because the victim won, the muggers needed to be saved and a bystander died ... but make no mistake this kind of sh!t happens everyday. Victims who are RBSD practitioners win everyday in NYC. They just don't usually stick around to fill out the paperwork.

Thanks for stopping by

[Dan_The_Man]

What would a thai boxer do once the knife was produced and the distance was closed? What would he do once he was surrounded? Of course the honest answer is he would either freeze up because his ring training never prepared him for this, or he would simply begin kickboxing because that's what he knows how to do.

Love it! Great thread.

I do have to say here, what would anyone do? Maybe 3 (plus knives) vs 1 is too much of an extreme situation. I don't mean that it never happens but I agree with what Garland says, wouldn't luck play such a huge factor in a situation like this? The deciding factor even?

How would you equip yourself for a 3+ (with knives) vs 1 situation? I’m genuinely interested to know. Is RBSD enough?

[Uke]

Uke, i find your posts interesting, im not sure we are as closed minded as you think. I know what you mean by intensity, raw violence etc. I dont see thai boxing etc as limiting this ability.

Anyway, the program i saw, no one fought with fists it was all shooting. I dont really think anyone had fist fights in that area, or knife fights much. It was all shootings. We saw dead body after dead body as people were shot and they turned up with the police shortly after.
THe gang members they interviewed only talked about guns. it was like a warzone and hard to believe that can exist in a developed country.
The only thing that would be any use around there would be to be able to shoot well.

Well the story in this thread involves a stabbing, and this story is not unique.

I don't think everyone is closed minded Ghost, but if you read throughout this forum you'll see an abundance of closed-mindedness. Have you ever read the BJJ effectiveness topic I created? It turned into a full out flame war over me putting a distinction into place. People here like to pretend that whatever they're doing at the moment is the "greatest thing ever" and all encompassing instead of recognizing that there is a tool for every job. You wouldn't try to hammer a nail in with a shovel although I'm sure it could be done. Most of the people(but not all) here don't want any part of that. They only want cheerleading for the flavor of the month.

You never answered my question, ghost. "What would a muay thai boxer have done once he was stabbed?"

The man in this story went into fight or flight mode and his training took over. He trained just like I described to you in the "jujitsu" thread, ghost. I know this because I know exactly where he learned, what he used and the man who taught it to him.

Fact is every RSBD contains a good degree of boxing, thai boxing and BJJ. But ideally you would have more than this alone.

Krav Maga and that is taught in a fairly similar way to a thai boxing lesson.

My point in our previous discussion was that no modern RBSD approaches a self defense situation like a thai boxing lesson. None that are noteworthy. If they teach that way then the students practice that way, which means they will attempt to execute like a thai boxer during an altercation.

Which leads us back to the question:

"What would a muay thai boxer have done once he was stabbed?"

We don't even have to use the element of injury to discuss what I'm getting at. What would a thai boxer do once the knife was produced and the distance was closed? What would he do once he was surrounded? Of course the honest answer is he would either freeze up because his ring training never prepared him for this, or he would simply begin kickboxing because that's what he knows how to do.

I can pose this question to judoka, karateka, arnisadors, wrestlers, BJJ players, boxers, MMA fighters, and any other non-modern RBSD practitioner and the answer would play out the same. Arnisadors would have the best chance of the group because he has experience with weapons and disarms, but once again we must factor in that most FMA isn't based on concise tactics, and they sure as hell aren't teaching their students how to gutterfight.

This goes back to my earlier point about being careful when choosing your base art. Why would you chose an art that puts you at a disadvantage in these types of situations as a base for these exact type of situations? Its makes no sense.

Everyone these days wants to be a mad scientist and mix and match parts to create their own frankenstein method, but the problem is that the people who try this often times have never mastered ANY range, and are constantly working from assumptions because of that fact. NHB competition has given a lot of people the idea that mastering a range is for suckers because the smart man dabbles. That's crap, and people who think that way usually wind up dead in situations like the one in this news story.

[Ghost]

Uke, i find your posts interesting, im not sure we are as closed minded as you think. I know what you mean by intensity, raw violence etc. I dont see thai boxing etc as limiting this ability.

Anyway, the program i saw, no one fought with fists it was all shooting. I dont really think anyone had fist fights in that area, or knife fights much. It was all shootings. We saw dead body after dead body as people were shot and they turned up with the police shortly after.
THe gang members they interviewed only talked about guns. it was like a warzone and hard to believe that can exist in a developed country.
The only thing that would be any use around there would be to be able to shoot well.

[TTEscrima]

NICE post!! Can't wait to see some of the replies you're going to get, and I can't believe you left suplexing people off your list of options.

[Uke]

oh man we had this program in the uk about crime in philly, they followed the police there and interviewed loads of gang members that were hanging out on street corners.

it looked nuts, it was like a warzone, wht the hell is going on.

Those are the kinds of situations that RBSD are supposed to equip a man to deal with. Many people think that shoving matches and the occasional drunken fist fight at a local bar where most everybody knows each other is real and intense violence.

The footage you saw is probably mild, because cameramen usually aren't willing to stick around filming when the real sh!t hits the fan. Gangs are usually the worst kind of violence because there doesn't have to be a reason for violence to abruptly manifest itself. There doesn't have to be specific targets. There doesn't have to be enemy. The reason why police have such a hard time dealing with gangs is because often times there is no method to their madness, and therefore they are hard to predict and profiling methods aren't as effective as they usually would be.

Its almost as bad in any area where you'll find gangs and drugs, which is just about any place. Drugs are all over the world. Even rich yuppies are getting high. The difference is that they don't usually have to get violent because they can flip the bill for their own habit. Those who can't mostly turn to crime(robbery, theft). If you think you're going to wrestle or thai-box with a man with a knife then you are crazy. If you think you're going to wrestle or thai-box a man with a knife and his 2 friends who are also involved, then you're suicidal.

Combat since the beginning of time has always been a method of winning or surviving. Since then combat was refined into art-forms where the goal was always to win as fast as possible with doing as little as possible. Weapons are the fastest way to win or lose, and friends just stack the odds. Seems that gangs and muggers understand this simple concept and that's why they are so effective when they attack. Weapons and numbers is an easy enough formula.

Then you have the guys that refine TMA/RBSD into sport arts. The guys who do this and accept that what they do is for competition are fine. There are however the breed that like to pretend that by giving and taking some shots in a ring equates to street violence. They lull themselves into believing that by rolling on the BJJ mat they will encounter the same level of violence and intent found during a mugging.

The reason I posted this article was so that some of you could see how a real mugging unfolds. Muggings usually ends up MUCH worse than this one did, but this man just happened to have some ability and wasn't a typical victim. Typical meaning either one who let's it happen to him, or one who thinks that because he's won some competitions that his ring fighting approach will be enough once a man with a blade has already closed the distance.

In the instance of this story, the defender didn't even get a chance to see the knife coming. What would a muay thai boxer have done once he was stabbed other than begin launching kicks and knees? Was the fact that the MT boxer got stabbed going to grant him one hit KO power and enable him to then begin knocking all of the assailants out? Once you've been stabbed you've literally got minutes before its possible that the lights go out. How are you, using muay thai, going to free up enough opportunity to call for help? Are you going to thai box while talking on your cell phone?

In situations like this one, you don't have three minute rounds to play around. You don't have room to shuffle. And once you are hurt, what are you going to do? I'm interested in knowing what those who think that sparring and muay thai are real RBSD would then do. What would you do in those crucial seconds?

Clinch and begin kneeing?
Throw a barrage of punches?
Throw low leg kicks?

Some of you might will say that you're aware of the "hole in your game" that Muay Thai creates and will name some FMA to say you'll "round out" that way. Most of you don't even realize that the majority of FMA's teach fancy flourishes and classical forms for tradition's sake. Most FMA won't teach you how to deal with full on aggression like the kind found in this situation. The majority teach by dueling, or trading aggression back and forth like in fencing. There are some FMA schools that have modernized training to address urban combat, but the majority adhere to tradition and dueling.

So while you think you're "rounding out" your skills by crosstraining, all you're doing is learning to compete from a different range.

I'm sure there are some here who still think he would have been fine using BJJ.

[Uke]

This is a perfect example of what I was telling Brewer: You don't have time to think or even blink once the proverbial sh!t has hit the fan. So many people who "play" kickboxing and BJJ in the dojo think that you have time to pussy-foot around, take off your jacket and calculate moves ahead like chess. What happens when the confrontation starts off with a knife to your gut? Too bad for the bystander.

This is also a perfect article for those who believe that multiple attackers don't exist and that street altercations very rarely involve weapons. - Uke

HERO'S 'SAMARITAN' SLAY

MAN KILLED IN MUGGING MELEE EYED AS INNOCENT

By PHILIP MESSING, JOHN DOYLE and DOUGLAS MONTERO


TOUGH COOKIE: Maurice Parks, who was knifed in the stomach, is tended to by medical personnel after fighting off muggers and stabbing two people, including one possible good Samaritan who died.

January 12, 2008

A muscle-bound jujitsu black belt who stabbed two men as he fended off a group of muggers yesterday may have killed an innocent man in the battle, police sources said

Flonarza Byas, 27, an accountant, may have been trying to help 39-year-old subway conductor Maurice Parks, who was attacked shortly before midnight Thursday on St. Nicholas Avenue and West 139th Street in Harlem while walking home from work, the sources said.

It's unclear what happened, but Parks apparently stabbed Byas and killed him as he struggled to fight off the attackers. Parks also stabbed one of the alleged muggers and left him hospitalized.

The apparent mix-up left Byas' family devastated.

"More than likely he just walked out of nowhere and saw something going on and moved in to help," said Byas' brother Jeovanni. "That is his nature."

The assault began when the muggers clobbered Parks - a 180-pound fitness fanatic - in the head with a blunt object.

One of the men then stabbed him in the stomach with a curved knife in an apparent bid to take his bag, cops said.

But Parks didn't give up easily. Despite his injuries, he pulled his own knife and battled back.

"I'm glad he did what he did, otherwise he'd be dead," said his mom, Mona Parks, 57. "It's sad that it happened. I'm glad my son is in a physically fit condition and that he knew how to defend himself."

Parks, who was recovering at Harlem Hospital, is a dad of three and 15-year transit veteran who works as a backup conductor on the Nos. 2, 4 and 5 lines. Strong, muscular and dreadlocked, he has studied battle tactics since he was a child.

"They picked on the wrong guy," said Khalif Yisrael, 42, a fellow student at Harlem's Kumite-ryu School of Survival, where Parks studies jujitsu for self-defense. "They didn't know what they were getting into."

While Parks' family and friends were relieved he survived the attack, Byas' family was devastated by the killing.

"He was very respectful, a very nice person," said Maryse Phillpotts, the mother of Byas's fiancée, Stephanie Diaz. She did not believe he would ever have been involved in a mugging.

"I don't know why this happened to him," she said. "He had a nice future ahead of him."

Diaz said that Byas was a CPA who recently worked as an accountant at a Midtown wig business, and was returning from a new job at a tax company at the time of his death.

Cops had initially identified Byas as a mugging suspect, though sources said they were later backing off that assessment. Police did say Byas had been ticketed for trespassing in a park just hours before his death.

Of the other three alleged participants in the brawl, one is still on the loose, one was stabbed and hospitalized and one is a teen who has been taken into custody.

The injured suspect was identified as Hector Cruz, who was recovering at Harlem Hospital.

Cops arrested Leandro Ventura, 15, for a role in the attack.