victim mentality...

[treelizard]

Yup, no pictures for you.

[treelizard]

Mike, I think my problem is that you said you were Buddhist, so I keep accidentally putting you in this little box in my mind with other Buddhists who believe everybody is responsible for the actions of others, because it's their own karma. Or something. My apologies.

Anyway, before Tom and I continue to hijack this thread with our little antics, I did want to make one recommendation to anyone who's still reading this and working through these issues themselves... If you feel oppressed or under attack, if you find yourself repeating the same cycle and need some help getting out of it, maybe you've already tried therapy and a bunch of other approaches and none of it's worked and you still need some help, I would totally recommend meeting with WarriorSchool bracelets... And it's free...

[Tom Yum]

Yup, no pictures for you.

Nooooooooo..........

[LoneHusky]

Are you a redhead treelizard?

[treelizard]

Are you a redhead treelizard?

Lizards don't have hair.

[Sagacious Lu]

...you said you were Buddhist, so I keep accidentally putting you in this little box in my mind with other Buddhists who believe everybody is responsible for the actions of others, because it's their own karma. Or something.

I'm not sure why you would say this about Buddhism; there may be individuals that interpret it this way but the way I see it (and in my experience) if ever there was a school of thought that teaches one to take responsibility for themselves it's Buddhism.

I'm not saying that a woman who is abused by some a-hole has allowed it to happen (though many of the women in this situation do just that). I'm saying that how she resists, what she does before, during, and after the fact are all her choices to make.

The statement I'm about to make is flawed because it's too general, I know that each situation is unique so please take my point for what it's worth without castigating me for the obvious exceptions. I realize that some people can't just simply up and leave the bad situation for a variety of reasons; especially in other cultures. That said, in my mind if a woman gets hit by her boyfriend once shame on the boyfriend. If she gets hit a second time it's her fault and shame on her because she let invited it by sticking around. As far as abused women go my experience is limited to having been a concerned friend and a concerned family member, but it seems to me to be a lot like the patterns I see in drug addicts. For whatever reason their need for the other person is so great that they're willing to put up with the beatings, just like a drunk's need for booze is so great they're willing to ruin their liver. Clearly both problems show a sorrowful lack of self-esteem. I'm all for providing shelter/counciling/protection for abused women who want to get out of the situation just like I believe in providing help for those who want to break the cycle of addiction. However, at the same time it is obvious to me that ultimate responsibility for the destructive pattern lies with the individual, and until they do there isn't much that can be done for them.

[Tom Yum]

I'm not sure why you would say this about Buddhism; there may be individuals that interpret it this way but the way I see it (and in my experience) if ever there was a school of thought that teaches one to take responsibility for themselves it's Buddhism.

And Christianity doesn't ??

[Sagacious Lu]

And Christianity doesn't ??

No, for some strange reason they think that some guy that's been dead for 2,000 years is responsible for them

*Sorry, that was a cheap shot*

Seriously though, I was raised Catholic. They taught us that you can read the Bible for yourself (although it isn't actually necessary as long as you have "faith") but that you have to accept the Church's official interpretation of the text. It doesn't matter how keenly you read the book for yourself, or how sincere and well-thought out your interpretation of it is, you aren't allowed to have your own opinion, you have to accept the official one as handed down by the Vatican. Letting someone else read my play book for me isn't my idea of taking responsibility for myself.

[Tom Yum]

I'm not catholic; no offense taken.

You don't have to be a catholic to be a Chrsitian. You just have to accept Jesus as your lord and savior, accept his sacrifice for our sins and follow the God-inspired words of the Bible.

I'm not perfect, but I work at it.

[GQchris]

No, for some strange reason they think that some guy that's been dead for 2,000 years is responsible for them

*Sorry, that was a cheap shot*

Seriously though, I was raised Catholic. They taught us that you can read the Bible for yourself (although it isn't actually necessary as long as you have "faith") but that you have to accept the Church's official interpretation of the text. It doesn't matter how keenly you read the book for yourself, or how sincere and well-thought out your interpretation of it is, you aren't allowed to have your own opinion, you have to accept the official one as handed down by the Vatican. Letting someone else read my play book for me isn't my idea of taking responsibility for myself.

Sagacious, I feel your pain dude, I am a recovering catholic, and everything I was taught as a catholic was b.s.; I don't wanna bash catholicism, but I don't have anything positive to say about it, throw out everything you learned as a catholic... since I left catholicism I have grown so much... peace to you.

[treelizard]

re: Buddhism, it does indeed teach people to take responsibility for themselves, but they are also responsible for others, because it's their own karma. In fact they are responsible for everything they experience, not just their reactions to it.

Re your very flawed example: the difference between booze and abusers is that booze is inanimate. .......................

Where I take exception is when ALL the responsibility is placed on the victim (yes I'm using that word consciously) as if it's not a two-way thing.

Domestic violence is a crime by the perpetrator. Survivors have many options to get help and get away from the situation, including but not limited to breaking ties with the perpetrator, getting heavily armed and trained, making better choices, getting therapy, changing their entire mindset, the list goes on and on.

The abuser is fully responsible for his/her abusive behavior. Period. Whether the survivor works towards changing his/her life or not.

[Sagacious Lu]

You don't have to be a catholic.

I haven't been one for ten+ years

throw out everything you learned as a catholic...

I wouldn't want to do that. One of my favorite Bible stories, which I read in CCD class is the one in which Jesus washed Mary Magadalene's feet. To me it speaks volumes about the humility and respect that everyone deserves to be treated with, especially those that society looks down on for whatever reason. Everyone else passed judgement on Mary and felt superior to her, but Jesus taught otherwise. I may not be a Catholic but I will always draw inspiration from that Bible passage, among others.

[Tom Yum]

The abuser is fully responsible for his/her abusive behavior. Period. Whether the survivor works towards changing his/her life or not.

The cycle others are talking about breaking are applied to situations where someone seeks abusive types again and again.

[treelizard]

The cycle others are talking about breaking are applied to situations where someone seeks abusive types again and again.

I know. I just have to wonder why people (myself included) spend more time focusing on that than they do on the abuser in the first place. Why is that? For me I guess it's because I've worked directly with survivors and in Taoism they say you can impact the microcosm (or yourself) before you can affect the macrocosm (other people's behavior.)

Oh and as far as Catholicism... Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. My friends that went to Catholic school tell me that they were taught by interesting, dynamic women who were independent thinkers, who never taught "your face is your fortune," who demonstrated their faith in their lives, faith that was deeply personal.

I have a lot of respect for St. Teresa of Avila and St. Hildegard of Bingen, the original wild women... and St. Joan of course. In contemporary times, I am also a big fan of Clarissa Pinkola Estes. And Sister Joan Chittister (not because she's a liberal, but because of her commentary on the Church.)

Oh, and I pretended I was a Mary Knoll sister when some guy was bothering me in El Salvador. He went away. Thank God for Catholicism.

[Sagacious Lu]

Domestic violence is a crime by the perpetrator. Survivors have many options to get help and get away from the situation, including but not limited to breaking ties with the perpetrator, getting heavily armed and trained, making better choices, getting therapy, changing their entire mindset, the list goes on and on.

The abuser is fully responsible for his/her abusive behavior. Period. Whether the survivor works towards changing his/her life or not.

So than what's the difference between a victim and a person who stays in an abusive relationship because they just want to? I don't see how you can consider a person who voluntarily stays in an abusive relationship for 20 years a victim They have consciously chosen that way of life and if it was so horrible they could have done something about it at any time. It's not up to me to say it's right or wrong, if that's what someone wants to do with their life far be it from me to pass judgement. Everyone deals with ass-holes in life, how you deal with them makes all the difference. Hey, lots of people rely on crutches to get them through the day and in the end they're all likely to bring you bad things. One thing I know for sure though, some people make the same self-destructive decisions day after day, year after year and when someone chooses not to learn from their mistakes they have only themselves to blame for what they get.