Womens self defense, or MMA grappling?

[jubaji]

I'd equally like to know how women feel about basically being told that they have no alternative but to lay down and let rapists with a weapon have their way, because that's exactly what Jubaji and Sag Lu's say anyone honest with themselves HAS to do. .

Neither one of us said that. You lie AGAIN. This is really becoming a habit with you.
.[/QUOTE]

[treelizard]

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do; that depends entirely on the situation and, as I said the individual's decision. Not only is that a personal issue, we're also talking about a situation that- as a guy- I won't have to deal with personally.

Right on. Just something women have to think about beforehand... In fact the more you think about it beforehand, and about different scenarios, the better able you'll be to deal with it if (god forbid) you wind up in the situation.

[treelizard]

Nicely summed up, and exactly on point.

Have you ever taken a Model Mugging course?

No, I didn't think so.

[treelizard]

Well, I asked one guy to lift me up, and once he did I tried all my fancy moves to try to get out of getting picked up and guess what? They didn't work because the guy had leverage. He knew how to use his body and wasn't responding in the way they train their muggers to. So in this case the element of surprise was in the guys I tried it on (they didn't know what I was going to do) not the "muggers" (who have a set way they're trained to respond so the bullshit moves they show you in the weekend classes will work)

Now if a bad guy wanted to lift me up, do you really think it'd be a fucking surprise to him if I tried to do something to get out of it?

What I want to know is what makes you an expert on women's self-defense? Have you taken a Model Mugging class? Doubtful, because they don't allow men in the room unless they're the "muggers" getting beat up.

And by the way, WSD classes don't teach to "attack someone from out of nowhere with a sucker punch." They are purely SD based. Which means the bad guy KNOWS what move they are trying to do. And no I was not saying "tell me if this move hurts" I wanted to see if it'd be effective against someone with a basic understanding of, say, leverage. And most of them didn't. And I was glad to find out that way rather than on the street.

But go ahead and keep promoting WSD classes to build some false confidence in women until they get themsleves in fucked up situations and learn the hard way. Because that's all those classes do.

Maybe women have used MM to save their lives, but stats show that ANY kind of resistance is effective whether you take a course or not. And I bet there's an equal number of women who thought they were hot shit because they took some bullshit weekend course and ended up hurt or worse. The only difference is that you won't find their testimonials on some flashy website selling the courses you recommend.

If you don't want people to "study for about a week and then go out and get into a fist fight only to remark "That shit doesn't work!" then why the **** would you recommend a WEEKEND course? That's what I want to know.

Don't expect women to go to some weekend course hoping they've engrained the movements enough into their minds so that it will come in handy for them in their time of need. Because it won't.

Work hard with sound methods(and more importantly solid instruction) and you will get results.

Which is exactly why women shouldn't rely on WSD classes.

[TTEscrima]

Look at what you're saying here.

You learned women's self defense, not a competitive sport art. If you even bothered to listen to this video, Melissa flat out tells you that SURPRISE is your greatest tool and asset.

Then, with total disregard for that key piece of information, you went out to "test it" on some MMA guys. How did you manage that? I'm wondering how you got the element of surprise on them.

Did you tell them "Attack me like this" and then tried out your new "moves"? I'm glad you wrote that because its a classic example of what some of you people can't wrap your heads around: SD is not a competitive art where you are going to square off against anyone. It isn't even designed that way but some of you operate on such a linear way of thinking it's impossible for you to understand that the element of surprise is a powerful tool and it creates an opening for you to work.

What TreeLizard did is go to a few seminars in hopes to finding some holy grail of "moves". Further proof of that is found by when she tried it out on MMA fighters. Unless she attacked them out of no where from a sucker punch standpoint there was absolutely no element of surprise. Once she did it that way it isn't even self defense. It became a game of "Let me show you what moves I learned and you tell me if it hurts".

There are hundreds if not thousands of women who have used Model Mugging and similar methods to save their lives and it worked for them. Or rather should I say they worked the method like they were supposed to and wound up achieving their goal of surviving.

Nothing will work for you if you don't work for it, especially if you don't even follow what you were instructed to do. That reminds me of guys who come in and study for about a week and then go out and get into a fist fight only to remark "That shit doesn't work!". I've seen people pull that with every style from karate to jujitsu to kung fu. They want to be Bruce Lee in a week. Those kinds of people have something very much in common with jubaji:

They consider themselves so smart that they think that they can do and talk about a thing with little to no exposure to it and not have to do a physical thing to learn the physical aspects of that thing. Then once they get their ass beat they can't conceive that its because they've overestimated their own grasp of that thing. So in their minds it had to be the fault of the thing itself.

We often say that there is no such thing as effortless self defense, but there are those who think that the martial arts are magic tricks and once you pay for a lesson you should be able to perform with precision with a wave of a wand.

Work hard with sound methods(and more importantly solid instruction) and you will get results.

Nicely summed up, and exactly on point.

[Uke]

I took Model Mugging classes. In fact I took several. Then I went and tested out everything I learned against guys who trained MMA and only about 10% of it worked against real resistance. They helped me find modifications that, with practice, were higher percentage moves.

Model Mugging is crap.

Look at what you're saying here.

You learned women's self defense, not a competitive sport art. If you even bothered to listen to this video, Melissa flat out tells you that SURPRISE is your greatest tool and asset.

Then, with total disregard for that key piece of information, you went out to "test it" on some MMA guys. How did you manage that? I'm wondering how you got the element of surprise on them.

Did you tell them "Attack me like this" and then tried out your new "moves"? I'm glad you wrote that because its a classic example of what some of you people can't wrap your heads around: SD is not a competitive art where you are going to square off against anyone. It isn't even designed that way but some of you operate on such a linear way of thinking it's impossible for you to understand that the element of surprise is a powerful tool and it creates an opening for you to work.

What TreeLizard did is go to a few seminars in hopes to finding some holy grail of "moves". Further proof of that is found by when she tried it out on MMA fighters. Unless she attacked them out of no where from a sucker punch standpoint there was absolutely no element of surprise. Once she did it that way it isn't even self defense. It became a game of "Let me show you what moves I learned and you tell me if it hurts".

There are hundreds if not thousands of women who have used Model Mugging and similar methods to save their lives and it worked for them. Or rather should I say they worked the method like they were supposed to and wound up achieving their goal of surviving.

Nothing will work for you if you don't work for it, especially if you don't even follow what you were instructed to do. That reminds me of guys who come in and study for about a week and then go out and get into a fist fight only to remark "That shit doesn't work!". I've seen people pull that with every style from karate to jujitsu to kung fu. They want to be Bruce Lee in a week. Those kinds of people have something very much in common with jubaji:

They consider themselves so smart that they think that they can do and talk about a thing with little to no exposure to it and not have to do a physical thing to learn the physical aspects of that thing. Then once they get their ass beat they can't conceive that its because they've overestimated their own grasp of that thing. So in their minds it had to be the fault of the thing itself.

We often say that there is no such thing as effortless self defense, but there are those who think that the martial arts are magic tricks and once you pay for a lesson you should be able to perform with precision with a wave of a wand.

Work hard with sound methods(and more importantly solid instruction) and you will get results.

[Uke]

Here we go again. Note he didn't say they had to decide if they're willing to possibly risk their life by fighting back, he said they had to decide if it was worth their life to fight back, once again Sag LU wants all women to know if you resist you will die.





And now he's reassuring you most of the time if you cooperate with the nice rapist he will let you go when he's through using you.

Things that make you go hmmmm

Nice perspective and great reply, TTE.

[Uke]

It seems rare for men to be sodomized in civilized countries but it happens. Esp in prison...

That's hilarious ... Maybe that's why some guys here believe that nothing will work. Inside it was the shiv or the booty ... and the booty lost no matter how much tae-bo they tried. That's just nasty.

No real man would choose that path. Ewwwwwwwww.

[TTEscrima]

I like her style!

... but more interested in who she learned from. It's not unlike stuff Peyton has been teaching for the last twenty five years or so...

Simulated CQC is big fun. Can you imagine the trauma if she weren't holding back?

Now... give her a knife and watch out.

I'm pretty sure she credits Peyton's material, for waking her up and getting her out of the dojo/ring mentality and into reality based training.

Here's a recent intro piece done on her:

Melissa Soalt aka Dr. Ruthless

A widely respected women's self defense trainer,melissa_soalt former psychotherapist, and Black Belt Hall of Fame recipient- in 2008 Melissa won the coveted Black Belt Industry Award for BEST Women's Self Defense. Since 1986 she has taught thousands of women how to protect themselves from danger and summon their primal instincts to fight back and survive. Melissa also fended off her own attacks: while on her maiden voyage into the world she was assaulted numerous times. A decade later, after years of training in Aikido, she foiled a would-be attack in a terrifying encounter with a stalker / rapist.

The founder and former owner of Model Mugging of Boston, Inc., in 1986, Melissa brought Model Mugging's scenario-based, adrenaline-state training method (which employs the use of fully armored mock attackers) to the East Coast. Under her dynamic and professional leadership it emerged as one of the most successful self defense schools nationwide with specialized trainings for women, teens and men. Melissa's on-site seminars have been conducted at such notable institutions as Harvard, Polaroid, Hewlett Packard, Reebok, UPS, Procter and Gamble and the Miami Herald. Her no-nonsense methods draw from full-force and “applied self defense” systems, close quarters combat and a host of dirty tricks.


Here's a quote about the subject at hand:

"Studies have finally dispelled the myth that you cannot protect yourself and that resistance will only make things worse. This erroneous claim has been replaced with new found data showing that immediate and aggressive responses, including fighting back, are effective. Conversely, pleading, reasoning or appealing to a rapists humanity is not. In fact, the latter is ìalmost universally futile, notes Dr. Judith Herman, a foremost authority on trauma and author of the best-selling book Trauma and Recovery.

"By not resisting rape, women may be putting themselves at greater risk", says Sarah Ullman, an assistant professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Of course, fighting carries risks as though being raped, beaten or worse doesn't constitute injury but Ullmans research on resistance strategies concluded that a womans level of physical injury is mainly determined by the offenders use of violence and initial blows struck, not because she fought back.

Having choices and defense skills may also be critical in the aftermath. The women who fought to the best of their abilities were not only more likely to be successful in thwarting the rape attempt, but less likely to suffer severe distress symptoms, Herman wrote. By contrast, women who submitted without a struggle were more likely to be highly self-critical and depressed in the aftermath. There are more good reasons why you need to learn how to counterattack, but before getting to essential strategies, you need to appreciate the nature of fear."

Black Belt Magazine

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It's also worth mentioning that the only woman to escape Ted Bundy, did so because she fought back.

[Tant01]

Good stuff Uke...

.....
...

Anyway, even females can fight back when there is a weapon or a stronger person attacking them. The real blasphemy here is the defeatist attitude that some people spread and the time they spend trying to convince others that there is no other alternative but running and luck.



This woman(Melissa Solat aka "Dr. Ruthless") is probably the most well known and respected proponent of women's self defense in America. ...........

....

I like her style!

... but more interested in who she learned from. It's not unlike stuff Peyton has been teaching for the last twenty five years or so...

Simulated CQC is big fun. Can you imagine the trauma if she weren't holding back?

Now... give her a knife and watch out.

[Tant01]

Or not...

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do; that depends entirely on the situation and, as I said the individual's decision. Not only is that a personal issue, we're also talking about a situation that- as a guy- I won't have to deal with personally.

It seems rare for men to be sodomized in civilized countries but it happens. Esp in prison...

[Sagacious Lu]

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do; that depends entirely on the situation and, as I said the individual's decision. Not only is that a personal issue, we're also talking about a situation that- as a guy- I won't have to deal with personally.

[Hardball]

I took Model Mugging classes. In fact I took several. Then I went and tested out everything I learned against guys who trained MMA and only about 10% of it worked against real resistance. They helped me find modifications that, with practice, were higher percentage moves.

Model Mugging is crap.

Thanks for chiming in and helping us get back on topic. I'm sure there are other woman who are lurking in this thread. We want to hear from you, don't think that you can't contribute. We are here to learn both as practioners and instructors.

[TTEscrima]

No, but I am saying that if they're facing a rapist with a weapon they have to decide whether it's worth their life to fight back.

Here we go again. Note he didn't say they had to decide if they're willing to possibly risk their life by fighting back, he said they had to decide if it was worth their life to fight back, once again Sag LU wants all women to know if you resist you will die.

Most rapes aren't also murders...

And now he's reassuring you most of the time if you cooperate with the nice rapist he will let you go when he's through using you.

Things that make you go hmmmm

[kingoftheforest]

Most rapes aren't also murders...

While it is a personal choice I agree the most there kinda kills the argument both ways.

Most of the time if you fight back you have a chance (especially with prior training).

Most of the time even if you are brutally raped and beaten, at least you are alive to relive the event over and over in your mind, but you're alive.

So the real question anyone who follows logic has to ask their self is....

Do I want to live the rest of my life knowing what it's like to be raped,and wondering what I could have done?

or

Do I want to defend myself and only live with the experience of almost being raped?


Not being sarcastic this is just what I have gotten out of the last few exchanges.