Medival Knight VS Japanese Samauri (sp)

[Hardball]

1) No one called it the unnofficial bible of the Knight 2) could you perhaps explain your position and 3) since any warrior rarely had any time for reading (if they were even literate), I doubt many samurai read the Go Rin No Sho, much less considered it their bible

Dude do you know what unofficial means?

I'm objective; you struck a good point about samauri not having time to read the book of 5 rings. LOL You scored with that one.

[jubaji]

I'm objective; you struck a good point about samauri not having time to read the book of 5 rings. LOL You scored with that one.

Actually that was a bad point.

[Hardball]

Actually that was a bad point.

O.K. then give me an assist and elaborate why it was a bad point.

[jubaji]

O.K. then give me an assist and elaborate why it was a bad point.

Well, because literature and such was pretty important to the Samurai and its not like there was never-ending war that made it impossible to pursue such interests.

[Tant01]

A number of the Samurai were also exceptional calligraphers, poets, and philosophers... illiterate for sure. What need for scrolls had the mighty Samurai?

[MatthewAlphonso]

Well, because literature and such was pretty important to the Samurai and its not like there was never-ending war that made it impossible to pursue such interests.

You're still arguing the ideal of the Samurai when they were trying to enforce themselves as being vital to society in a time when they weren't. Before the Tokugawa shogunate the a majority of Samurai would have been illiterate or would have had little time for anything but practice or prepare for war as the preparation for battle or even battle itself was near never-ending. I mean border raids would have been near constant as would Samurai being deployed to increase security in areas suspected to be targeted for attack.

Yeah well i dont own tights and i dont wanna borrow any of those either.... the SCA wide rulebook FORBIDS hitting hard or trying to injure an opponent. You are not allowed to touch the opponent or his weapon with anything except your weapon....NO real weapons are allowed...i already said i know quite a few barbarians and weapons makers for the SCA....its FAR from full contact...sure you flail at each other, so it isnt coreographed, but it damn sure isnt full contact. or authentic

you don't need tights, I said a cup, I'm sure if you do any amount of martial arts or sparring you own a cup. it does not forbid hitting hard, it forbids hitting with excessive force, there's a difference, you need to hit hard if you expect to be felt beneath a steel can and a half inch or more (usually more). and I tell you from my experience it is full contact. the others rules are merely concessions to safety as should be expected from any public and educational organization. As for authenticity, the level of authenticity will fluctuate event to event and person to person, but most people in general try to make themselves and the things they do as authentic as possible.

[BoarSpear]

you don't need tights, I said a cup, I'm sure if you do any amount of martial arts or sparring you own a cup. it does not forbid hitting hard, it forbids hitting with excessive force, there's a difference, you need to hit hard if you expect to be felt beneath a steel can and a half inch or more (usually more). and I tell you from my experience it is full contact. the others rules are merely concessions to safety as should be expected from any public and educational organization. As for authenticity, the level of authenticity will fluctuate event to event and person to person, but most people in general try to make themselves and the things they do as authentic as possible.

look man im not trying to bash you or the SCA, but be realistic here, ....no strikes or throws are allowed....its fun and entertaining but its NOT full contact or realistic...and it certainly isnt authentic....you yourself said why bother reading the old text...just get in there and see what works, learn from the others....thats not authentic....the same people that teach the SCA sword work also put out the Klingon batlith instructional dvd i suppose thats authentic as well?

Have fun but dont delude yourself or mislead others into believing its better than proper Kendo training.

[MatthewAlphonso]

look man im not trying to bash you or the SCA, but be realistic here, ....no strikes or throws are allowed....its fun and entertaining but its NOT full contact or realistic...and it certainly isnt authentic....you yourself said why bother reading the old text...just get in there and see what works, learn from the others....thats not authentic....the same people that teach the SCA sword work also put out the Klingon batlith instructional dvd i suppose thats authentic as well?

Have fun but dont delude yourself or mislead others into believing its better than proper Kendo training.

I don't see strikes or throws in Kendo either, it's a safety issue. it is fun and entertaining and it is full contact. Every event and every bout I've been in has been full contact. I never said why bother reading the old texts I merely said that I had not read them as I am trying to get a feel for the weapons first because I don't want to get trapped in theory without knowing how to apply it. Since when is learning from others not authentice, ever hear of a squire? man at arms? and where the hell do you get the idea that the same people who teach SCA sword also put out some klingon combat video? even if they did it doesn't make their SCA techniques any more or less authentic. We don't have any elves or starfleet personnel at our events (though a few show up at Pennsic occasionally that's just people leaving their LARP to see what's up).

I'm not deluding myself, I know it's impossible to be completely accurate and completley safe, even the medieval peoples made concessions for safetly at tournament. But I never said it was better than "Proper" Kendo training, I said it was more historically accurate. and I know several SCAdians who went to a kendo class and whupped the class up.

[jubaji]

You're still arguing the ideal of the Samurai when they were trying to enforce themselves as being vital to society in a time when they weren't. Before the Tokugawa shogunate.

Wait a minute. No Samurai could have read the Book of 5 Rings before the Tokugawa era 'cause the thing wasn't written yet!

[Hardball]

Wait a minute. No Samurai could have read the Book of 5 Rings before the Tokugawa era 'cause the thing wasn't written yet!

Miymoto Mushashi had written the rough draft or manuscript in a cave right before his death. Thus it had to have been in circulation since Mushashi died somewhere around the 17th century.

But, what century was the Tokugawa era in? There had to be other "How to Manuals" on Scrolls from previous generation of Samauri.

[Hardball]

[B]A COUPLE OF THE MOST FAMOUS BATTLES IN SAMAURI HISTORY FOLLOW>>>>>>>>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------AKECHI
March 1574 / Mino / Siege
Takeda Katsuyori
VS
Oda Nobunaga

Despite the death of Takeda Shingen in 1573, the Takeda, now led by Katsuyori, continued to make gains against the Oda and Tokugawa. In March 1574 Katsuyori led an army into Mino Province and surrounded Akechi Castle. Nobunaga hastily dispatched a relief force under his eldest son Nobutada and Ikeda Nobuteru but this arrived too late: Akechi's commander had already surrendered. Later that year, Katsuyori would score another victory by taking Takatenjin Castle in Tôtômi Province. This would be the Takeda's high-water mark, which would recede following the Battle of Nagashino in 1575.

ANEGAWA
30 July 1570 / Ômi / Battle

Oda Nobunaga (20,000)/ Tokugawa Ieyasu (8,000)
VS
Asai Nagamasa/Asakura Kagetake [Asakura Yoshikage] (20,000)

This battle, fought in the shallow waters of the Ane River, came about after Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu threatened Odani Castle, the home of Asai Nagamasa. Earlier that same year, Nobunaga, the master of Kyoto since 1568, had felt compelled to march against Asakura Yoshikage of Echizen. The Asai, long-time allies of the Asakura, broke their alliance with the Oda and threatened the Oda army from the rear. A skillful retreat minimized the immediate danger brought about by this surprise development and soon Nobunaga was ready to punish Nagamasa for his treachery. The Oda and their Tokugawa allies marched on Odani Castle, prompting Nagamasa to send for help from Echizen. Asakura Yoshikage sent an army to support him and the combined force marched out to confront Nobunaga in the field. Nobunaga reacted by placing a screen around an Asai fort he had been reducing (Yokoyama) and advancing to the southern bank of the Anegawa. The following morning the battle began, with the Oda and Asai clashing on the right while Tokugawa and Asakura grappled to the left. To the right Nagamasa's men fought very well and the situation there was soon in doubt for the Oda. Meanwhile, theTokugawa men were handling the Asakura roughly and once he felt in a position to do so, Ieyasu sent his men against the flank of the Asai forces. The hard-fighting Asai had no choice but to rereat and the day ended in Nobunaga's favor. Some 1,000 Asai and Asakura men had been killed, as well as a number of commanders. At the same time, Odani was for the time being saved, as Nobunaga withdrew his weary army from the area soon afterwards. A few months later the Asai and Asakura retaliated by defeating an Oda army near Otsu, an action that saw the deaths of Mori Yoshinari and Oda Nobuharu (one of Nobunaga's younger brothers).

KIA: (Asai) Endo Naotsune, Isono Kazumasa (Asakura) Makara Jurôzaemon

ARAI
1516 / Sagami / Siege

Hôjô Sôun
VS
Miura Yoshiatsu

Miura Yoshiatsu and his son Yoshimoto allied with the Ogigayatsu branch of the Uesugi and opposed the Hôjô's activities in Sagami. Yoshiatsu's attempts to reduce the Hôjô's forward forts failed, however, and strife within the Uesugi allowed the Hôjô to turn their full attention on the Miura. in September 1512 Hôjô Sôun was in a position to lay siege to Yoshiatsu at Okazaki Castle, a critical part of the Miura's defense of the Miura Peninsula. Yoshiatsu was forced to quit Okazaki and retreat to Arai, a castle held by his son Yoshimoto. The Hôjô and Miura skirmished near Kamakura on a number of occasions as Sôun reduced the Miura's remaining outer forts, effectivly bottling up Yoshiatsu at Arai. With the Miura reduced to only Arai, Sôun was content to let them 'wither on the vine' for almost three years. Finally, in 1516, Sôun ordered an all-out attack on the starving defenders of the castle and Yoshiatsu and Yoshimoto, after a brave stand, both commited suicide. Yoshimoto is famed for having cut off his own head, an act which, whether true or not, is said to have greatly impressed the Hôjô

KIA: Miura Yoshiatsu, Miura Yoshimoto

2nd AZUKIZAKA
1548 / Mikawa / Battle

Taigen Sessai (Imagawa Yoshimoto)
VS
Oda Nobuhide

The Battle of Azukizaka was a notable event in a long period of hostilities on the Tokai Coast. The Imagawa family, led at this time by Imagawa Yoshimoto, was gradually extending its influence eastward from Suruga. Following an earlier war with the Shiba family, Tôtômi was brought firmly into the Imagawa domain, with its neighbor Mikawa naturally a place of great contention. To the east of Mikawa was owari, and the Oda domain. Oda Nobuhide (father of the famous Nobunaga) was a staunch opponent of the Imagawa, and just as interested in influencing events in Mikawa. Mikawa itself was the home of the Matsudaira family, who found themselves caught between these two forces. By 1548 the Matsudaira had drifted into the Imagawa camp, though hardly without incident, and now stood to join forces with their erstwhile enemies to the west. At this time a certain Toda Yasumitsu betrayed the Matsudaira and declared his support for the Oda. While Yasumitsu's rebellion was quelled, Nobuhide nonetheless led an army of some 4,000 men into Mikawa, his objective being Okazaki - the Matsudaira's capital. The young lord of the Matsudaira, Hirotada, turned to the Imagawa for assistance and agreed to provide his only son as a hostage in return for help from Suruga. The child (the future Tokugawa Ieyasu) was duly dispatched eastward but was intercepted and spirited away by the recently chastised Toda Yasumitsu. Hirotada's son ended up as a hostage of the Oda but if Nobuhide had hoped this would convince Hirotada to change his allegiances, he was to be disappointed. Hirotada brushed off the threats to his son's life (perhaps intuiting that the boy was of more use to Oda alive then dead) and in the end no harm came to him. Meanwhile, Yoshimoto dispatched his talented uncle, the monk-general Taigen Sessai (or Sessai Chorô), with an army to sort things out in Mikawa. Nobuhide himself led an army out of Anjô (a Mikawa castle taken from the Matsudaira) and ran right into Sessai's army. Sessai had selected the ground well, and the engagement began in what was essentially an ambush. The fighting was desperate but in the end Nobuhide was defeated and his army sent on its way back to Owari. Sessai thus avenged an earlier reverse suffered by the Imagawa at the same site six years previously. This battle also proved to be Nobuhide's last, for he died the following year. in the aftermath of his death Sessai was to return and retake Anjô - in the process compelling the Oda to give up Hirotada's son. Sessai himself died in 1555 and the next great encounter between the Oda and Imagawa, at Okehazama in 1560, would have a much different outcome.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

D

DAN NO URA
24 April 1185 / Shimonoseki / Battle

Minamoto Yoshitsune (850 ships)
VS Taira Munemori (500 ships)

Dan no ura was the culmination of the Gempei War (1180-85) and resulted in the complete destruction of the Taira leadership. The battle had been essentially forced on the Taira by their loss of Yashima - their base on Shikoku. Pursued by Minamoto Yoshitsune and isolated by the maneuvers of Minamoto Noriyori on Honshu and northern Kyushu, the Taira were forced to stand and fight. They were more experienced at naval warfare then the Minamoto, but this was offset to a great extent when a number of local warriors brought ships and seasoned Inland Sea sailors for the Minamoto. Though outnumbered in ships (perhaps 850 to 500), the Taira hoped to use the tides to their advantage. In the event, the tides did flow against the Minamoto initially, and allowed the Taira to employ their archers to some effect. In the end, the tide changed and Yoshitsune, aided by the defection of the Taira general Taguchi Shigeyoshi, was able to drive home his attack. The child-emperor Antoku and his mother commited suicide by drowning, followed by most of the Taira samurai - save their leader, Munemori, who was captured and later executed.

KIA: Taira Tomomori, Taira Noritsune, Taira Norimori, Taira Tsunemori, Taira Sukemori, Taira Arimori, Taira Yukimori, ect...


G

[Hardball]

Recommended Reading/Sources
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Berry, Mary Elizabeth. The Culture of Civil War in Kyôto Berkely, CA.: University of California Press, 1994



Berry, Mary Elizabeth. Hideyoshi Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1982 [Very useful; Mary E. Berry is one of the best authors on medieval Japan]



Bottemly, I. & A. P. Hopson Arms and Armor of the Samurai Crescent 1991



Bryant, Anthony Sekigahara 1600 Osprey Military 1995 [An interesting description of the Sekigahara Campaign graced with excellant maps]



Cooper, Michael They Came To Japan University of California 1981



Elison, George Deus Destroyed Harvard 1991 [A fascinating work by one of the top names in the field]



Ellison, George and Bardwell L. Smith, eds. Warlords, Artists, and Commoners Honolulu: The University Press of Hawaii, 1982



Hall, John Whitney. Government and Local Power in Japan, 500 - 1700 New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1966



Hall, John Whitney. Japan from Prehistory to Modern Times New York: Delacorte Press, 1970



Hall, John Whitney and Toyoda Takeshi. Japan in the Muromachi Age Berkely: University of California Press, 1977



Hall, John Whitney, Nagahara Keiji and Kozo Yamamura, eds. Japan Before Tokugawa Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1981 [A highly valuable book - a must-have for the serious student]



Hall, John W. and Marius B. Jansen (ed.) Studies in the Institutional History of Early Modern Japan Princeton 1968



Hane, Mikiso. Japan, a Historical Survey New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1972



Hane, Mikiso. Modern Japan, a Historical Survey Colorado: Westview Press, 1992



Latourette, Kenneth Scott. The History of Japan New York: MacMillan Co., 1968



Leonard, Jonathan Norton. Early Japan New Jersey: Time-Life Books, 1974 of The Great Ages of Man



Lu, David John. Sources of Japanese History USA: McGraw-Hill Inc., 1974 [A priceless reference for the english-speaking student]



McCullough, Helen C. The Tale of the Heike Stanford 1988



Mass, Jeffery P. (ed.) Court and Bakufu in Japan Stanford 1995



Mass, Jeffery P. and William B. Hauser (ed.) The Bakufu in Japanese History Stanford 1985 [Another 'must-have' for the serious student]



Mosher, Gouverneur Kyoto: A Contemplative Guide Tuttle 1964



Nish, Ian. A Short History of Japan New York: Frederick A. Praeger, Inc., 1968



Parker, Geoffrey. The Millitary Revolution, 2nd Ed. New York, NY: Cambridge University Press, 1996 [An excellent book on military history in general, focusing on European military history in particular, but with references to Oda Nobunaga and Hideyoshi as well]



Perry, Commodore M. C. Narrative of the Expedition to the China Seas and Japan Dover Publications, 2000 [A recent reprint of the original 1856 text - fascinating]



Reischauer, Edwin O. The Japanese Today USA: Harvard University Press, 1988



Reischauer, Edwin O. Japan, The Story of a Nation, 4th Ed. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., 1990



Reps, Paul. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones Rutland, Vermont: Doubleday, 1989 [Excellent Zen stories, with some interesting historical samurai references]



Sadler, A. L. The Maker of Modern Japan Tuttle 1989 [A classic that continues to stand the test of time]



Sansom, George. A History of Japan to 1334 California: Stanford University Press, 1999 [The better of Sansom's works]



Sansom, George. A History of Japan, 1334 - 1615 California: Stanford University Press, 1996 [An entertaining read, if dated and at times inaccurate]



Sato, Hiroaki. Legends of the Samurai Woodstock, New York: The Overlook Press, 1995



Shiba, Ryotaro The Last Shogun: The Life of Tokugawa Yoshinobu Kodansha 1998 [A great read definatly worth checking out]



Totman, Conrad. Tokugawa Ieyasu, SHÔGUN Union City, California: Heian International Inc., 1990



Tsunoda, Ryusaku, Wm. Theodore De Bary, Donald Keene. Sources of Japanese Tradition New York: Columbia University Press, 1965



Turnbull, Stephen. The Samurai - A Military History Japan Library, 1996



Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Warfare Arms and Armour Press, 1996



Turnbull, Stephen. Samurai Warlords Blandford, 1992



Turnbull, Stephen Samurai Warriors Blandford 1987



Tyler, Royall (ed.) Japanese Noh Dramas Penguin 1992



Varley, H. Paul. The Ônin War New York: Columbia University Press, 1967 [THE source in English for info on the Ônin War - unfortunately it is no longer in print, but is available from a few online booksellers - if you are willing to pay the price]



Yamamoto Tsunetomo The Hagakure Kodansha 1983



Yoshikawa, Eiji. Taikô USA: Kodansha International, Ltd., 1992




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Japanese Sources



Abebayashi, Ichirô Sengokushi Shinbun Tokyo, Japan: Nihon Bugeisha, Inc., 1996



Bessatsu Rekishi Tokuhon #3, Nihonshi Jinbutsu Fushigi Jiten Japan: Shin Jinbutsu Ôrai Co., 1999



Bessatsu Rekishi Tokuhon #85, Sengoku no Kassen Japan: Shin Jinbutsu Ôrai Co., 1998 [An extensive examination of 59 battles of the Sengoku era, with maps and a full-color section of battle scrolls and panels of Sekigahara, Nagashino, and others.]



Bessatsu Rekishi Tokuhon #91, Jôezu o Yomu Japan: Shin Jinbutsu Ôrai Co., 1998 [Full color and black & white reproductions of contemporary maps of over 50 famous japanese castles, paired with present day photos of the same locations taken by airplane.]




Kuwata, Tadachika Sengoku Bushô Kurôbanashi Japan: Chiteki Ikikata Bunko, 1991



Kuwata, Tadachika Sengoku no Bushô Sanjûnin Tokyo, Japan: Koizumi Seihon, Inc., 1996



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #1, Oda Nobunaga Japan: Gakken, 1996



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #5, Takeda Shingen Japan: Gakken, 1999



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #6, FuuRinKaZan Japan: Gakken, 1999



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #8, Uesugi Kenshin Japan: Gakken, 1999



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #49, Môri Senki Japan: Gakken, 1997 [A comprehensive examination of the Môri clan focusing on the 16th century, but including lots of information on the history of the clan as well, to its beginings in the 14th century. Also has sections detailing the Ôuchi and Amako clans. Included with this is a fold-out map of western Japan detailing the battles of Môri Motonari, with a 19th century map of Kôriyama castle on the back.]



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #50, Sengoku no Kassen Taizen (Part I) Japan: Gakken, 1997



Rekishi Gunzô Shirizu #51, Sengoku no Kassen Taizen (Part II) Japan: Gakken, 1997



Shimaoka, Akira Toyotomi Hideyoshi Tokyo, Japan: Narumidô, Inc., 1995



Owada, Tetsuo Nihon no Rekishi, Kassen Omoshiro Hanashi Japan: Chiteki Ikikata Bunko, 1997

[BoarSpear]

Awesome Read!!

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/ancient.html

long read but a great one ...fuel for the fire so to speak and can open several new doors of discussion....early kata....pressure points.....women warriors...secret techniques transmitted by word of mouth only

[Hardball]

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/ancient.html


long read but a great one ...fuel for the fire so to speak and can open several new doors of discussion....early kata....pressure points.....women warriors...secret techniques transmitted by word of mouth only

How did you find it or did you just stumble across it? I'll have to read it later since you already said it was long.

[Sagacious Lu]

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/ancient.html


long read but a great one ...fuel for the fire so to speak and can open several new doors of discussion....early kata....pressure points.....women warriors...secret techniques transmitted by word of mouth only

This is interesting; I'll have to finish reading it when I have some extra time.