Christians vs Atheist?

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Uh...no. Not a religion.
Any other philosophy too? So hard determinism is a religion? existentialism too? I believe in cognitive dissonance...does that mean I'm a member of a whole host of religions? NOPE. WRONG.

HOW is it wrong. is it the lack of ceremony and ritual that makes hard determinism not a religion? this is what seems to be put forth by dictionary definitions, that only the formalization distinguishes a "religion" from a plain ole "belief system". do you buy into this? how do you define religion, and how does your definition of philosophy differ? like i said, i'm genuinely curious and i'm not pushing for one answer or another, but whenever i ask this question i get the kind of response you just gave me, plugging the ears and singing "LALALA NOOOOOOO LALALA NOT LISTENING!"

cognitive dissonance is no more valid an argument than to say christianity is not a religion because it contains many influences from other religions and philosophies.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

those people dont believe in god. they may claim they do, but anyone who murders, rapes, and molests others is quite far away from god. i dont care what they claim to believe in, they are FAR from being true believers in god. had these fools had any real faith they would have feared the punishment of bringing harm to other people.

i think you're just giving humans too much credit my friend. of course belief in a single creator should inspire shame at the actions of some of these believers. but actions and beliefs don't always line up. how many christian gluttons and adulterers do you know/know of?

[BoarSpear]

those people dont believe in god. they may claim they do, but anyone who murders, rapes, and molests others is quite far away from god. i dont care what they claim to believe in, they are FAR from being true believers in god. had these fools had any real faith they would have feared the punishment of bringing harm to other people.

So what about our leaders, aren't they Christian? Lies and war under false pretense that cause millions of deaths...isn't Bush afraid of hell?

[DickHardman]

So what about our leaders, aren't they Christian? Lies and war under false pretense that cause millions of deaths...isn't Bush afraid of hell?

they say they are christian, they say they believe in god, but their actions speak otherwise. leads me to believe that they too are far away from god.

the extremist muslims out there also claim to believe in god and claim all the violence they carry out is because they believe in god, yet the entire doctrine they claim to belive in states that everything they are doing is forbidden. so are they truly muslims and true believers of god or far from it?

just because people claim to be something, it doesnt mean they are.

[DickHardman]

how many christian gluttons and adulterers do you know/know of?

plenty. but i also know of many christians who strive to help others, volunteer at homeless shelters, and genuinely strive to do good things.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

plenty. but i also know of many christians who strive to help others, volunteer at homeless shelters, and genuinely strive to do good things.

absolutely, there are alot of the latter types in my own family. i'm sorry, i didn't mean to pick on christians, seems that happens often enough without me, it was just an easy example. but examples can be found in every belief system. my point was only that you can believe in god and still do things that are in direct conflict with your beliefs

[DickHardman]

my point was only that you can believe in god and still do things that are in direct conflict with your beliefs

i understand that, but i also want to point out that many people may claim to believe in god but really do not. so if someone who claims to believe god or a particular religion goes and kills some people, how is that gods fault or the fault of the religion that most likely forbids these kinds of acts? isnt it because of the people not listening to their religions? yeah people were massacred during the inquisition. however, i highly doubt that jesus christ ever said that was ok. same for these muslim extremists, muhammad explicitly states that crimes involving the spilled blood of others will be the very first crimes god is going to deal with on the day of judgment, yet these extremists have no problem blowing people away, leaving rivers of blood running through baghdad. are they true muslims??? no sir.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

i understand that, but i also want to point out that many people may claim to believe in god but really do not. so if someone who claims to believe god or a particular religion goes and kills some people, how is that gods fault or the fault of the religion that most likely forbids these kinds of acts? isnt it because of the people not listening to their religions? yeah people were massacred during the inquisition. however, i highly doubt that jesus christ ever said that was ok. same for these muslim extremists, muhammad explicitly states that crimes involving the spilled blood of others will be the very first crimes god is going to deal with on the day of judgment, yet these extremists have no problem blowing people away, leaving rivers of blood running through baghdad. are they true muslims??? no sir.

well, i will at least agree that it is ultimately individuals who are to blame, not religion.

[jubaji]

WHAT? ARE YOU RETARDED?! What about the Inquisition, the Crusades, and just about every other fucked up thing done by Christianity...covering up molestations and rapes...?

Ah, but whereas all of those are things directly in violation of the faith involved (completely the opposite of what the faith demands), those instances where people have died because they were not atheist involved no violation of atheism at all. Human beings will always fail. Do you therefore advocate following a call to live a better way than most do, or to have no moral compass whatsoever?

[jubaji]

Yeah, I am....

Well, you don't get to have it both ways. If you insist on that, then I must demand that you recognize the political nature of so-called religious violence in direct violation of the faiths involved. I'll take the same cover as you; they weren't religious, they were political.

[jubaji]

So what about our leaders, aren't they Christian? Lies and war under false pretense that cause millions of deaths...isn't Bush afraid of hell?

Political bullshit from Boring. Remember when you were so humiliatingly wrong about the 'secret' members of the Electoral College? Were you lying? Or were you wrong, misinformed, and mistaken? Your poor attempts at playing with words to suit your radical political agenda are risible.

[Garland]

HOW is it wrong. is it the lack of ceremony and ritual that makes hard determinism not a religion? this is what seems to be put forth by dictionary definitions, that only the formalization distinguishes a "religion" from a plain ole "belief system". do you buy into this? how do you define religion, and how does your definition of philosophy differ? like i said, i'm genuinely curious and i'm not pushing for one answer or another, but whenever i ask this question i get the kind of response you just gave me, plugging the ears and singing "LALALA NOOOOOOO LALALA NOT LISTENING!"

cognitive dissonance is no more valid an argument than to say christianity is not a religion because it contains many influences from other religions and philosophies.

A philosophy or theorum is much different from an organized religion, or even a person's belief structure. A philosophy, say existentialism, has basic tenents and beliefs associated with it that do, in deed, attempt to explain the same abstract concepts that religion attempts to tackle. The difference is in the dogma, the rules, the pretense, the ceremony, etc etc etc.

Cognitive Dissonance as a theorum has no identifiable ties to religion, it can be used to describe religious beliefs and things that challenge them, but other than that, is not influenced by religion.

[Garland]

Well, you don't get to have it both ways. If you insist on that, then I must demand that you recognize the political nature of so-called religious violence in direct violation of the faiths involved. I'll take the same cover as you; they weren't religious, they were political.

Excuse me? Reclaim the HOLYLAND? Kill the INFIDELS? Punish the HERETICS? Stone the ADULTERESS? Ever read the book of Joshua? Rape, murder, loot and pillage in the name of Yaweh?

[Garland]

Ah, but whereas all of those are things directly in violation of the faith involved (completely the opposite of what the faith demands), those instances where people have died because they were not atheist involved no violation of atheism at all. Human beings will always fail. Do you therefore advocate following a call to live a better way than most do, or to have no moral compass whatsoever?

No moral compass whatsoever.

Directly in violation of the faith involved? Ok, let's put that to the test-

Catholic doctrine states that the human component of the church may be faslifiable, but the word of God is divine, and therefore infallible. The pope is God's spokesperson on Earth, and therefore, as a mouthpeice of God, is infalible.

Explain the Crusades, the Inquisition, and Pope Pius looking the other way during the Holocaust using that doctrine. All had the stamp of approval by the papacy, and therefore is done with God's consent.

[jubaji]

Excuse me? Reclaim the HOLYLAND? Kill the INFIDELS? ?

You're excused. The point of the Crusades was to 'protect' the sites holy to Christians in the middle east, not to kill all the Muslims. Was it wrong? Long story, but it was (a) not an attempt to kill those who were not Christian and, to the extent it resulted in innocent deaths no matter what their faith (b) in violation of Christian doctrine. It certainly doesn't serve anyone's interests to ignore or deny that it happened though, or to try and talk around both the political and religious aspects of it because it suits someone's agenda.