Wounded Afghans say U.S. forces fired on civilians after suicide bomb

[Troll Virus]

Recently..

Afghanistan: Kabul Conference Focuses On Increased Opium Farming
By Ron Synovitz

Despite Afghan government efforts, opium production has reportedly risen in the last year
(AFP)
PRAGUE, August 22, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- The Afghan government today is hosting its second counternarcotics conference in Kabul -- with plans to announce new details about its antidrug efforts.

The meeting comes amid warnings from Western and Afghan officials about record opium cultivation this year -- up by as much as 40 percent over 2005. Much of the increase appears to be in the southern provinces like Helmand, where fierce fighting has prevented the government's poppy eradication efforts from taking hold.

Afghan Counternarcotics Minister Habibullah Qadiri says opium cultivation has likely increased this year, even though three times more poppy fields have been eradicated than last year.

Speaking on the eve of today's antidrug conference in Kabul, Qadiri told reporters that a lack of security in Helmand Province has allowed as much as a threefold increase in poppy cultivation there.

"Narcotics has got to be eradicated from this country or there will never be the peace and stability in the long term." NATO commanderWestern officials and diplomats have told RFE/RL that a report to be published on September 12 by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime will show that more Afghan farmland is being used to grow opium poppies than ever before.

Offering Farmers Alternatives

Mohammad Mosa Hamid, an adviser to Afghanistan's Counternarcotics Ministry, told RFE/RL's Radio Free Afghanistan that he initially was surprised to hear what Western officials are saying.

"We hear some information from here and there [about increased poppy cultivation this year], but we need to wait until we receive the evidence," he said. "And then we can judge whether poppy has been cultivated [at a record level] or not. I hope it hasn't...I do not think that poppy cultivation has increased because we have aid programs distributing seeds for alternative crops."

Hamid explained that the focus of the government's counternarcotics strategy has been to help wean farmers away from growing opium poppies and reiterates that far more poppy fields across Afghanistan have been destroyed this year compared to last year.

"We have been launching such programs this year -- successful programs like providing farmers with alternative livelihoods," he added. "And we have tried to explain to them through other legal ways that the poppy illness is a bad thing. It causes a lot of problems internally and internationally."

The Afghan government has not yet completed its own national survey of the areas being planted with poppies.
The British government, which has a lead role in supporting Afghan counternarcotics programs, also says it wants to wait until the new UN statistics are published before commenting on the report.

Southern Violence Hampers Efforts

But privately, British and U.S. officials in Kabul and London say there is no doubt that poppy cultivation has risen significantly since last year -- possibly by as much as 40 percent.

Notably, they say cultivation did not increase across all of Afghanistan's provinces. Eradication efforts have been successful in some parts of the country. But they say the resurgence of Taliban-related violence in southern Afghanistan this year has prevented eradication efforts from being effective in Helmand and other volatile provinces.

According to some officials, Helmand Province now accounts for more than 40 percent of opium poppy cultivation nationwide.

ISAF forces in the south have not dealt with narcotics for fear of provoking a backlash (epa)Tom Koenigs, the top UN official in Afghanistan, has said that fears of fanning the insurgency have constrained efforts to destroy the poppy crops of impoverished farmers in Helmand. Koenigs said that if foreign troops start destroying poppy fields, the effort will lead to a popular backlash that increases both the number of Taliban fighters and their attacks.

For that reason, officials say, little eradication work has been done by the Afghan government or British soldiers deployed to Helmand this year as part of the expanding NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

The ISAF commander, Lieutenant General David Richards, told RFE/RL's Radio Free Afghanistan that bringing security to remote provincial areas has been a more immediate priority than opium eradication.

Counternarcotics "isn't my principal concern," Richards said. "If we are asked by the government to support an operation to do with narcotics in some way, we will positively look at it. And that is our obligation to them."

Indeed, Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government faced a backlash from farmers in southern Afghanistan last year amid rumors that Western military aircraft were being used to spray poison chemicals on poppy fields.

Lieutenant General Richards said the rumors about foreign troops being deployed to destroy poppy fields are not true.

Confronting Narcotics

"NATO-ISAF is not targeting farmers," he said. "We understand exactly that there must be other ways for them to make a living before we stop them -- if we ever got involved with it -- growing their poppy, because they have to feed their families in some way.


"We also know that, at the end of the day, narcotics has got to be eradicated from this country or there will never be the peace and stability in the long term," Richards added. "So [counternarcotics efforts are] there. But it is not our immediate agenda. And we have other things that we'd like to do to help people out of their predicament."

Kabul's counternarcotics strategy received international backing in the spring at the London Conference on Afghanistan. That strategy envisions Afghan officials leading the effort with foreign troops providing support only when requested to do so by Kabul.

But the apparent increased cultivation in the south has raised fresh concerns about links between Taliban fighters and Afghan drug lords.

President Karzai also has said that corruption within provincial governments, as well as within the administration in Kabul, has contributed to the problem.

Positive Results, Too

The issues are expected to dominate today's conference in Kabul on Afghanistan's counternarcotics strategy.

New or amended drug laws are anticipated along with the construction of high-security prisons, the creation of special courts for drug barons, and a program to train judges and prosecutors about the narcotics trade.

Some success has resulted from the millions of dollars given by the United States and Britain to help combat Afghanistan's flourishing drug trade.

With the help of a strong governor and police chief, the eastern Nangarhar Province reduced opium output by 96 percent last year. Since March of this year, counternarcotics police have raided 10 opium laboratories throughout the country -- seizing 1,225 kilograms of heroin and nearly 800 kilograms of opium.

[Troll Virus]

While we're all firing out statistics on rape, murder & assault etc.
Can anyone tell me how many people die each year of Heroin overdose?
Can anyone tell me how much of the crimes, including rape, assault burglary and muggings are induced by Opiates.
It'd seem to me that there always were WOMD to be dealt with.
It seems to me that not enough is being done about them.
While China is guilty of production, Afghanistan is kind of handy, cos we're over there anyway.
If the token few troops, giving the rest a bad name have so much free time on their hands, then couldn't we appeal to them to divert their energies into burning every single Poppy field they see?

After the overthrow of the Shah of Iran, the new Iranian regime was much more tolerant of opium production. At the same time, the Soviet-Afghan war led to increased production in the Pakistani-Afghani border regions. Both events led to increased international production of heroin at lower prices in the 1980s.

Traffic is heavy worldwide, with the biggest producer being Afghanistan. According to U.N. sponsored survey, as of 2004, Afghanistan accounted for production of 87 percent of the world's heroin. Opium production in that country has increased rapidly since, reaching an all-time high in 2006. War once again appeared as a facilitator of the trade.

Monday, Aug. 02, 2004
Terrorism's Harvest
By Tim McGirk | Kabul
U.S. forces hot on the trail of Osama bin Laden and the leaders of the Taliban in late 2001 didn't worry much about elderly, pious-looking men like Haji Juma Khan. A towering tribesman from the Baluchistan desert near Pakistan, Khan was picked up that December near Kandahar and taken into U.S. custody. Though known to U.S. and Afghan officials as a drug trafficker, he seemed an insignificant catch. "At the time, the Americans were only interested in catching bin Laden and [Taliban leader] Mullah Omar," says a European counterterrorism expert in Kabul. "Juma Khan walked."

That decision has come back to haunt the U.S. and its allies in Afghanistan. Western intelligence agencies believe that Khan has become the kingpin of a heroin-trafficking enterprise that is a principal source of funding for the Taliban and al-Qaeda terrorists. According to a Western antinarcotics official, since slipping out of Afghanistan after U.S. forces released him, Khan has helped al-Qaeda establish a smuggling network that is peddling Afghan heroin to buyers across the Middle East, Asia and Europe, and in turn is using the drug revenues to purchase weapons and explosives. A Western law-enforcement official in Kabul who is tracking Khan says that after a tip-off in May, agents in Pakistan and Afghanistan turned up evidence that Khan is employing a fleet of cargo ships to move Afghan heroin out of the Pakistani port of Karachi. The official says that on return trips from the Middle East, at least three vessels brought back arms, such as plastic explosives and antitank mines, which were secretly unloaded in Karachi and shipped overland to al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters. Khan is now a marked man. "He's obviously very tightly tied to the Taliban," says Robert Charles, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. Mirwais Yasini, head of the Afghan government's Counter-Narcotics Directorate, says, "There are central linkages among Khan, Mullah Omar and bin Laden."

The emergence of Khan's network reflects the challenges the U.S. still faces in Afghanistan. Since ousting the Taliban in December 2001, the U.S. has struggled to hunt down al-Qaeda's leaders, disarm Afghanistan's warlords and shore up President Hamid Karzai against a revived Taliban-led insurgency. The renewed trade in opium has worsened all those problems. A recent World Bank report calculates that more than half of the country's economy is tied up in drugs. The combined income of farmers and in-country traffickers reached $2.23 billion last year?up from $1.3 billion in 2002. Heroin trafficking has long been the main source of funds for many local warlords' private armies, which continue to thwart Karzai's attempts to expand his authority beyond Kabul. But the drug trade is becoming even more dangerous: U.S. and British counterterrorism experts say al-Qaeda and its Taliban allies are increasingly financing operations with opium sales. Antidrug officials in Afghanistan have no hard figures on how much al-Qaeda and the Taliban are earning from drugs, but conservative estimates run into tens of millions of dollars.

Al-Qaeda's foray into drugs dates from the days when the Taliban ruled the country. Though most devout Muslims consider narcotics taboo, bin Laden never directly condemned drug sales. A Western antinarcotics official says that in early 2001 al-Qaeda's financial experts joined forces with Khan and other alleged top Afghan drug traffickers to persuade Taliban leader Omar to ban opium cultivation. The ban was self-serving: it drove up opium prices from $30 per kilogram to nearly $650. That meant huge profits for the Taliban and their trafficker friends who were sitting on large stockpiles when prices soared.

Neither the Taliban nor al-Qaeda actually grows opium poppy. Their involvement is higher up the drug chain, where profits are fatter and so is their cut of the deal. Yasini, the Afghan antidrug czar, says the terrorists receive a share of profits from heroin sales by supplying gunmen to protect labs and convoys. Recent busts have revealed evidence of al-Qaeda's ties to the trade. On New Year's Eve, a U.S. Navy vessel in the Arabian Sea stopped a small fishing boat that was carrying no fish. After a search, says a Western antinarcotics official, "they found several al-Qaeda guys sitting on a bale of drugs." In January, U.S. and Afghan agents raided a drug runner's house in Kabul and found a dozen or so satellite phones. The phones were passed to the CIA station in Kabul, which found they had been used to call numbers linked to suspected terrorists in Turkey, the Balkans and Western Europe. "It was an incredibly sophisticated network," says the official. In March U.S. troops searching a suspected terrorist hideout in Oruzgan province after a firefight found opium with an estimated street value of $15 million.

Antidrug officials say the only way to cut off al-Qaeda's pipeline is to attack it at the source: by destroying the poppy farms themselves. This year, Afghanistan's opium harvest is expected to exceed 3,600 tons?making it the biggest crop since 1999 and enough to produce street heroin worth $36 billion.

For their part, U.S. military commanders have been reluctant to commit the nearly 20,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan to opium eradication, fearing that doing so would divert attention from the hunt for terrorists. Afghan officials say that several times last year U.S. special forces spotted suspicious convoys that appeared to be ferrying opium. Radioing in for orders, the special forces were told to leave the convoy alone and keep hunting for al-Qaeda, the Afghan officials say. A senior Afghan security official says the U.S. military doesn't want to jeopardize the help it receives from local commanders by seizing drug stashes or busting labs controlled by friendly warlords.

But the U.S. is finally starting to pay attention. Its ambassador to Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, has tapped top Drug Enforcement Administration official Harold D. ("Doug") Wankel to lead an intensified drive to nail kingpins, shut down heroin-production labs, eradicate poppy fields and persuade farmers to plant food crops. If the drug cartels aren't stopped, the U.S. fears, they could sow more chaos in Afghanistan, which al-Qaeda and the Taliban could exploit to wrest back power. "We need to make a difference in the next couple of years," says Wankel. Miwa Kato, a Kabul-based officer for the U.N.'s Office on Drugs and Crime, puts it this way: "The opium problem has the capacity to undo everything that's being done here to help the Afghans." Few outcomes would please America's enemies more.

[Blue Wave Gym]

oh and here's one more

every year 100,000 + people die in auto accidents in the U.S. this figure might even be the number of deaths due to d.w.i. anyway I heard this figure a while ago. So let's have some news coverage on that for once.

[7r14ngL3Ch0k3]

You were'nt paying attention, nor are you. I AM Andy Murray.
As stated recently, I joined this forum a long time before those trolls and probably before you.

Lmao, just because your join date says "2002" doesnt mean you didnt have gimmick accounts of "andy murray", "nutter", "jones", etc.

How on earth do you get to know people on a forum though?
I've met over 50 people from MA forums, and they never resemble their online personas at first glance.

[Troll Virus]

You think I'm backing you up? Or that your frickin opinion matters to me?

Neither

You had me in your sig as "Faggot"

Don't recall that I did, but everyone here remembers me being in your own sig, way before and long after whatever slight it is you deem to have imagined on your person.

...And YES my daughter was raped...Rape pisses me off, so do people who defend it and help hide it.

Which, instead of dealing with it rationally, you lash out at all and sundry, like you're the only person on the planet who's had a hard time.

As for Mike trying to help, you pmed him and begged him to plead your case because you were concerned I would turn the board against you

OK, now, you're desperate.
If Mike doesn't have copies of those PM's, then I give staff here full permission to access them and paste them onto the main board.
I simply tried to make peace with you, feeling missunderstood, but you were simply not big enough to do that.
I didn't realise at the time of asking that you and Mike had issues, but to be fair to Mike, from what I gather, he tried anyway.
Whoe the **** are you that I should Kow Tow to you anyway?

...Like people listen to me in the first place...you might notice at that time I didnt know Brewer And we got along, once I got to know him that changed, but that was after you were here with Andy Murray and Nutter in tow...

You were'nt paying attention, nor are you. I AM Andy Murray.
As stated recently, I joined this forum a long time before those trolls and probably before you.
How on earth do you get to know people on a forum though?
I've met over 50 people from MA forums, and they never resemble their online personas at first glance.

[Troll Virus]

lol, hadn't heard that one myself, but i can say with a fair degree of confidence that he's not talking about booze.

Oh for sure, booze plus any number of substances.

Not sure i follow the distinction you're making. Are you saying if a third party is making the judgement and they say you're not as bad as the worst, then you're ok? Still doesn't sound good to me.

That's a matter of perspective.

Assuming that to be true for a moment's discussion, how do you feel about that? How would you feel if your home town was occupied by a force comprised of men no more intelligent, merciful, or morally upright than yourself?

That'd seem like any other wednesday afternoon to me.

On what authority would they hold the power to take your life? How could you relate to them if whenever there was a dispute they had the option of saying "Well this is getting boring, we don't want to debate with you over philosophy anymore, do as we say or we shoot"?

On WHAT authority indeed?

How is an invasion different from a mugging? Well, maybe i should amend the statement, because depending on which side you're on the two may appear highly analogous. The difference isn't so much in the scenarios as it is in which side are you on. Are you invading/attacking or being invaded/defending.

It's well known that the VICTOR writes the history.
Rights and wrongs are another matter entirely.
The question is; do you rely on someone elses morality, or your own?

[Tom Yum]

Results.

Alright, this personal attack stuff across both lines isn't making any progress.

Let's focus on real results, people.

U.S. Soldiers and Marines are coming back home with mental if not physical damage. From what we read in press releases, see in television and hear in radio broadcasts - alot of their medical treatment is substandard. Working conditions in the VA sound substandard too.

They are welcomed back by their families, but received by an indifferent society after risking life and limb for the Commander in Chief.

In some cases, society is hostile toward these men and women. And this is very clear on other message boards or post-boards that are more anonymous than ours. When they try to share their experiences, they get blank stares or shrugged off indiference.

If anything, the soldiering profession needs a booster shot in the arm. Not only in terms of salary and benefits (like medical) but image too. WSJ writer for the military, Thomas Ricks points out the military is something that everyone else's kid does. He also points out that our country's psyche is growing farther and farther apart from the military, all while we get closer and closer to our next major global conflict.

I've heard this confirmed by several veterans now entering the civillian job market too. Most people don't have any idea of what our men and women in armed services may have to go through; I know I don't...

If the veterans and concerned members on defend.net are going to be part of the solution and not part of the problem, we're going to have to drop the personal attacks, come up with real solutions and send them rolling up to our state and national representatives.

I vote that we create two defend.net departments for doing such

Geopolitical planning, strategy and public affairs
Headed by none other than Mike Brewer.

Ground tactics, warriorhood and quality control
Boar's in charge here.

The two departments are to be brokered by Tim Mousel, assisted by Gregimotis (in other words, you guys break up the fights between both departments and come up with fair solutions for said disputes).

[BoarSpear]

And Boar, your attack on XF just proves how stubborn you are when it comes to admitting you're dead wrong.

You don't know anything about him or what he's done, who he's talked to, or where he's been. Last I checked, you didn't have to be in the military to have an opinion. If you did, all those journalists you're so fond of quoting are as full of it as anyone. Reporters are not soldiers, but you report their stories like gospel, and stand by them all as "informing the public." When's the last time you questioned them on where they served?

Besides, you don't have to go to war to see how people get treated here at home, and frankly, the soldiers aren't the ones mistreating vets. So XF has more right to speak as to the consequences of your irresponsible behavior than you or even I do. He wasn't talking about what happens at war, but what happens here at home because of the very kinds of things you are doing and posting. As a civilian and an American, I believe he has all the qualifications he needs to speak on that.

How does it feel to be a part of the problem?

XF attacked me AS a vet, so I just asked from what experience he spoke? Otherwise he cant comment on me as anyone with anything EXCEPT a perspective of an outsider when it comes to warfighting.

You know how you all preach on this site how people who havent had mma ring experience lack any knowledge of fighting? Well people who aint EVER even been in the Military might wanna consider that little thought before they question/attack people who have been in war zones personally. oh but wait combat zone experience isnt a fair analogy for reality I bet.

[BoarSpear]

Boar, the fact that basic reading comprehension is beyond you means ...



As Boar's continued mental impairment,

It's just a shame it's me saying it and not some dope-smoking white haired gong-fu master biker. Maybe then you wouldn't have so much trouble separating the person from the idea. Maybe then, you'd listen.

As it stands, I imagine you'll just try to pick and quote why this means I'm prejudiced against dope-smoking bikers.

I think your inability to post without attacking me directly shows your lack of anything but a preprogrammed response from your Psychological Operations Training and HANDBOOK. Psyops is his job for you civilians. Interesting since in the Military Tactics Forum in the thread asking who was in the service or a Vet, Mike Brewer replied thats he has been in the Army 1999-PRESENT.

Mike B - US Army, 1999-Present

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=226488

...seems to me he's still earning that paycheck...DENY, EVADE, COUNTER ACCUSE. outright lie, if all else fails blame someone else for your failings. Always attack the character of the enemy, dehumanize and belittle...yeah thats your style, alright.

So to sum it up, I live in America and as a Vet I damn sure have the right to express my opinions of Wars in places I served and have family and friends/students currently serving.


Don't like my post? I don't care, I don't like you...So you said you didn't want to talk to me, so don't. I don't intend to address you unless addressed BY you.

Sup to YOU how long the senseless attacks and arguments go on.

[DickHardman]

BAGHDAD, March 2 — The sheik stared at the cake that the hotel workers had brought up to his room as a gift. Across the red gelatinlike surface was written, “God protect you from the enemies and keep you for the Iraqi people.”

God is indeed his guardian, said the sheik, Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi. So were the three burly Iraqi men standing outside the door of his suite here in the Mansour Hotel, and the five others by the elevators at the end of the hall. They had walkie-talkies, Kalashnikov rifles and camouflage vests stuffed with ammunition clips.

The sheik needs as much protection as loyalty and prayers can bring, not to mention money. He is the public face of the Sunni Arab tribes in lawless Anbar Province who have turned against the Sunni jihadists of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, many of whom belong to other, sometimes more militant Iraqi tribes.

“I swear to God, if we have good weapons, if we have good vehicles, if we have good support, I can fight Al Qaeda all the way to Afghanistan,” he said recently as he sat smoking in a dark jacket and brown robes while meeting with a sheik from another Sunni tribe in his hotel room.

Sheik Abdul Sattar, a wiry 35-year-old with a thin goatee who comes from the provincial capital, Ramadi, is the most outspoken Sunni tribal figure in the country who is fighting, at least for now, on the side of the Shiite-led Iraqi government and the American military.

He has met three times with Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki since announcing his campaign in September, and there is talk that the sheik has received large amounts of money from the Iraqi government or the Americans. His face has been shown in anti-insurgent commercials on the government-run Iraqiya television network.

But Sheik Abdul Sattar, as he is known to Iraqis and American commanders, complains that he does not get nearly enough financial or military support. “We don’t have enough weapons, cars, uniforms,” he said.

Part of the sheik’s mission is rooted in the tribal law of revenge. His father was killed by Al Qaeda in 2004 for opposing its kind of fundamentalism. Two brothers were abducted and never heard from again, and a third brother was shot dead, he said. He has survived three car bombs outside the home he shares with his wife and five children.

Residents in parts of Anbar say the split in the Sunni insurgency is widening, with moderate tribal leaders and nationalist guerrillas pitted against fundamentalist warriors and rival tribes. That has led to a sharp increase in Sunni-on-Sunni violence across Anbar, especially in the past week, deepening the chaos of Iraq’s civil war.

Al Qaeda remains a major force, and the relentless violence from all sides has turned the province into a failed region, according to a classified Marine intelligence assessment that was leaked to reporters last year.

As part of a broad review of options in Iraq, President Bush is looking at whether to give greater support to Sunni Arab tribal leaders who have grown disillusioned with the radical arm of the insurgency. It is a strategy long urged by officials in Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia and now vigorously backed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

The effort would have echoes of the American military’s promotion of South Vietnamese “village militias” during the Vietnam War, which some American counterinsurgency experts say was a relative success.

Sheik Abdul Sattar and the Anbar Salvation Council, the group of 25 tribes that the sheik said he had helped pull together to fight Al Qaeda, would be central to any such move by the Americans.

The sheik said he and his allies, who also call themselves the Anbar Awakening, had recruited 6,000 fighters from the tribes into the Anbar police, helped appoint a new provincial police chief and formed a 2,500-member “emergency brigade” answering to him.

A United States Army civil affairs officer in Ramadi, Capt. Travis L. Patriquin, said in an e-mail message shortly before he was killed by a roadside bomb in Ramadi in December that the tribal fighters in the Iraqi police constituted “the first successful, large force of men we’ve had since the start of the war.”

The captain wrote of Sheik Abdul Sattar, “He is the most effective local leader in Ramadi I believe the coalition has worked with since they arrived in Anbar in 2003.”

Once the Anbar Salvation Council began its recruitment efforts, more than 300 people a month signed up to join the Iraqi police, up from just 30 in May, Captain Patriquin said. American commanders have armed the recruits with weapons, munitions and vehicles provided by the Iraqi Interior Ministry. The Americans have also taken the recruits to academies in Jordan or Baghdad for schooling and given them a week of specialized combat training at an American base in Ramadi.

The plan has risks. The Americans and governing Shiite parties could be building up a Sunni militia that will eventually turn against them, as one such group, the Falluja Brigade, did in 2004 after the Marines handed it control of Falluja.

Some moderate Sunni sheiks in Anbar have said that for purposes of survival, they might be forced to ally themselves with Al Qaeda if the American military and, in particular, the Shiite-led Iraqi government did not provide them with more money and weapons, given the powerful presence of Al Qaeda in the province.

Sheik Abdul Sattar speaks of the Iraqi government with ambivalence, praising its stated goals while criticizing its ties to Shiite militias and its ignorance of the power of the tribes.

“They’re not cooperative, and they don’t want security,” he said. “This is true of all the political blocs.”

He has been to Baghdad twice to ask senior Iraqi officials for financial backing and equipment. He has met with the prime minister and with Jawad al-Bolani, the interior minister. But he said Iraqi leaders here were reluctant to give him what he needed to fight Al Qaeda.

An adviser to the Iraqi cabinet on tribal affairs, Sheik Minahi Minshid Hussein al-Shammari, said the government had responded to Sheik Abdul Sattar’s requests “within a limited capacity,” because “this is what the government can give.”

“The government extends a hand to anyone who wants to cooperate,” he added.

The formation of the group in September shocked many Sunni Arabs. It was the most public stand anyone in Anbar had taken against Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, which was founded by the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. In November, Sheik Harith al-Dhari, the leader of the Muslim Scholars Association, a hard-line Sunni religious group that calls itself the “legitimate resistance,” denounced the Anbar Salvation Council in a television interview, saying, “They don’t represent the Anbar tribes, and they are a group of criminals and thugs.”

Sheik Abdul Sattar said his tribe, the Rishawi, which accounts for a tenth of the 400,000 residents of Ramadi, had always tried to make peace with the Americans in Anbar. That was one reason his father was killed while attending a funeral more than two years ago, he said. Al Qaeda had begun killing sheiks and clerics, even selling videos of the crimes.

“They became people who didn’t distinguish between right and wrong, and that’s when we believed these people were terrorists,” he said.

Recent violence in Anbar has underscored the brutality of the fighting among the Sunnis there.

Two soccer players in Ramadi had been shot dead in front of teammates by masked gunmen who had accused them of having ties to the Anbar Salvation Council. On Thursday, a car bomb in Falluja killed at least seven people in a policeman’s wedding party, while intense fighting broke out in Amariyat, a community to the south where residents say tribes aligned with Al Qaeda have been battling nationalist insurgent groups.

A car bomb next to a Ramadi mosque killed 15 people on Monday, and a truck bomb exploded in Habbaniya on Feb. 24, killing at least 31 people and wounding dozens, outside a Sunni mosque where the imam had been preaching resistance to Al Qaeda.

In their clashes with Al Qaeda, the sheik’s tribal fighters have captured about 80 militants and put them into a “prison” in Ramadi, the sheik said.

Saudis and Syrians were among them, he said. The Saudis, under interrogation, said they had been recruited in their home country by being shown anti-American propaganda, including images of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, the sheik said. Then they were shipped off to Syria to enter Iraq.

The sheik has little love for the Syrian government. One morning as he ate breakfast in his hotel room, a television program about the assassination of the Lebanese cabinet member Pierre Gemayel on Nov. 21 came on. “This is all Syria’s doing,” he said. “Syria is doing bad things.”

Just as nefarious is Iran, with its ties to the Shiite militias, Sheik Abdul Sattar said.

“In my personal opinion, and in the opinion of most of the wise men of Anbar, if the American forces leave right now, there will be civil war and the area will fall into total chaos,” he said. “If we complete the police and the army, if we make them strong enough, it’ll be possible for the American forces to leave and go home, and they’ll be friends of the Iraqis.”

The evening call to prayer echoed through the streets of Baghdad as he ended the talk. Darkness had fallen. The sheik got up to show two foreign visitors from his room, warning them that no one could ensure their safety at that hour.

Four of his men were shot dead while driving through the capital the previous day, he said, and they surely would not be the last.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070303/ZNYT03/703030625/1006/SPORTS

[BoarSpear]

Interesting post Dick, except that Sunni's in Iraq are not the best solution to Afghanistan. Just givin' you shit Bro....like I've never sidetracked a thread.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Can't say I have, but one quote of his that sticks in my head is "there can be no art without intoxication"

lol, hadn't heard that one myself, but i can say with a fair degree of confidence that he's not talking about booze.

Not quite.
It means "you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys by an outside parties definition".

Not sure i follow the distinction you're making. Are you saying if a third party is making the judgement and they say you're not as bad as the worst, then you're ok? Still doesn't sound good to me.

The most powerful military forces in the world are largely made up of average men.

Assuming that to be true for a moment's discussion, how do you feel about that? How would you feel if your home town was occupied by a force comprised of men no more intelligent, merciful, or morally upright than yourself? On what authority would they hold the power to take your life? How could you relate to them if whenever there was a dispute they had the option of saying "Well this is getting boring, we don't want to debate with you over philosophy anymore, do as we say or we shoot"?

How so?

How is an invasion different from a mugging? Well, maybe i should amend the statement, because depending on which side you're on the two may appear highly analogous. The difference isn't so much in the scenarios as it is in which side are you on. Are you invading/attacking or being invaded/defending.

Let me ask this: do you think the "rules of engagement" are intended more for the invaders or for the invaded? More for the strong or for the weak?

is it not obvious when dirty tactics are acceptable and when they are not? I'll get into it if you want, but it'll be a long post

What unwavering standards of goodness did we establish exactly?

Good question, can't say there's a good answer. Sad, huh?

[DickHardman]

With Al Qaeda still remaining a major force in Iraq – according to a classified Marine intelligence assessment that was leaked to reporters last year – President Bush is now considering whether to give greater support to Sunni Arab tribal leaders who have grown disillusioned with the radical arm of the insurgency. It is a strategy long urged by many Saudi Arabian officials, now backed by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and one that will, seemingly, provide long-awaited tenable results.

Abdul Sattar Buzaigh al-Rishawi is the public face of the Sunni Arab tribes in lawless Anbar Province who have turned against the Sunni jihadists of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia. He is also, at least for now, fighting on the side of the Shiite-led Iraqi government and the American military and appears committed toward eradicating fundamentalists in Iraq.

“I swear to God, if we have good weapons, if we have good vehicles, if we have good support, I can fight Al Qaeda all the way to Afghanistan,” he said recently. But, Sheik Abdul Sattar, as he is known to Iraqis and American commanders, complains that he doesn’t receive the kind of financial support he needs.

If America were to implement a strategy supporting Sunni Arab tribal leaders, Sheik Abdul Sattar and the Anbar Salvation Council, the group of 25 tribes that the sheik said he had helped pull together to fight Al Qaeda, would be central to any such move.

The sheik said he and his allies, who also call themselves the Anbar Awakening, had recruited 6,000 fighters from the tribes into the Anbar police, helped appoint a new provincial police chief and formed a 2,500-member “emergency brigade” answering to him. Furthermore, Capt. Travis L. Patriquin, a United States Army civil affairs officer in Ramadi, said that tribal fighters in the Iraqi police constituted “the first successful, large force of men we’ve had since the start of the war.” Of Sheik Abdul Sattar he wrote, “He is the most effective local leader in Ramadi I believe the coalition has worked with since they arrived in Anbar in 2003.” Some counterinsurgency experts have even likened the strategy to that of the “village militias” used during the Vietnam War, which a number have called a relative success.

Of course, the plan does have its risks. One need only recall the Falluja Brigade, which eventually turned against the coalition after the Marines handed over Falluja.

Still, Sheik Abdul Sattar’s commitment seems real. He speaks of the Iraqi government with ambivalence and praises its stated goals. He has met three times with Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki. His face has been shown in anti-insurgent commercials on the government-run Iraqiya television network.

Beating the insurgency, for Sheik Abdul Sattar, though, requires a continued American commitment. Only after “we complete the police and the army, if we make them strong enough, it’ll be possible for the American forces to leave and go home, and they’ll be friends of the Iraqis,” he said.

http://www.tothecenter.com/news.php?readmore=1184

[BoarSpear]

yeah if I didn't know better, reading boars stuff would be enough to turn me against all military people. Wonder why people don't treat vets with the respect the deserve? Here's why.

So which armed service were you a member of XF?
You ever been to a VA hospital? Do you TALK to vets? Freakin go spend an afternoon at ANY VA hospital....you'll hear one hell of a lot of people who sound just like me....and you'll find ZERO people who are happy with ANY part of current events in the Military or veterans affairs....so perhaps ignorance really is bliss eh? Do you know why the VFW died damn near out? Because the vets from WW2 wouldnt have a fukkin thing to do with the vietnam vets....So before you comment on a veterans viewpoint, you might wanna have an idea what you're talking about.

[BoarSpear]

inmop, mike b was wrong to say that muslims dont speak out against violence. i wanted to mention this earlier, but i was banned for the last week. mike you say that muslims dont want to speak out/act out against extremists and whatnot, but you are not giving any credit to all the iraqis who get blown up everyday waiting in line to join the police force, or the iraqi army. you arent giving credit to our iraqi brothers who fight side by side next to our own country men in attempting to rid their country of insurgents. you are also not giving any credit to the local iraqi tribe volunteers who now back up coalition troops because coalition troops alone arent enough to fight off all the militatnts and extremists in iraq.

not only that, but i have read many articles about how local iraqis wanted to defend their own homes and cities from insurgents, but had all their weapons taken away by american troops who are not able to provide suffient security for the people they disarmed. and even after that, american troops are still relying on local fighters friendly to coalition troops to back them up during offensives.

you are also not giving any credit to the many iraqis who have been killed and tortured by insurgents for helping out the coalition.

Well said.