Wounded Afghans say U.S. forces fired on civilians after suicide bomb

[DickHardman]

inmop, mike b was wrong to say that muslims dont speak out against violence. i wanted to mention this earlier, but i was banned for the last week. mike you say that muslims dont want to speak out/act out against extremists and whatnot, but you are not giving any credit to all the iraqis who get blown up everyday waiting in line to join the police force, or the iraqi army. you arent giving credit to our iraqi brothers who fight side by side next to our own country men in attempting to rid their country of insurgents. you are also not giving any credit to the local iraqi tribe volunteers who now back up coalition troops because coalition troops alone arent enough to fight off all the militatnts and extremists in iraq.

not only that, but i have read many articles about how local iraqis wanted to defend their own homes and cities from insurgents, but had all their weapons taken away by american troops who are not able to provide suffient security for the people they disarmed. and even after that, american troops are still relying on local fighters friendly to coalition troops to back them up during offensives.

you are also not giving any credit to the many iraqis who have been killed and tortured by insurgents for helping out the coalition.

[Uke]

if the Muslims dont speak out when their people commit evil Muslims are bad....If Americans commit evil and an American speaks out the American is bad. Brewers a hypocrite at minimum.

Let's examine that.

We? Are you not an American? Why did they not fight Saddam? Was he not an oppressor of muslims as well? Why do honorable muslims there and elsewhere stand for oppressors and tyrants who pervert the holy Q'uran and allow themselves to be forced to live in poverty and need?

If we substitute "muslims" with Americans, "Q'uran" with Democracy and "poverty and need" with corruption and scandal then ... I guess you have a point!

[BoarSpear]

'Rape' seems to be a HUGE personal issue for you, as you've mentiond it many times before.
I'm truly sorry if this is a personal experience of you or yours.

Boarspear, I'd love to take your points on board, but seeing as you would not afford me the human decency of 'reasonable doubt' in the past, I'm struggling!

If you struggle to remember about 'reasonable doubt', that's when you had me in your sig as a "Whiniest Troll".
Mike, despite your (unbeknownst to me)animosity, attempted to mediate.
Now that I seem to be saying something you can take advantage of, you're all for it.

Not taking one side nor another, but Mike never did that!

Nor did he try and influence members here by posting stuff in their sig, which is what you did to me and now do to Mike.

It makes you more weasel than man and that's dissapointing to me, because I've enjoyed some of your posts, especially on CMA.

You think I'm backing you up? Or that your frickin opinion matters to me? You had me in your sig as "Faggot" ...And YES my daughter was raped...Rape pisses me off, so do people who defend it and help hide it.

As for Mike trying to help, you pmed him and begged him to plead your case because you were concerned I would turn the board against you...Like people listen to me in the first place...you might notice at that time I didnt know Brewer And we got along, once I got to know him that changed, but that was after you were here with Andy Murray and Nutter in tow...

[BoarSpear]

I've counted no less than a half-dozen blatantly anti-US posts by Boar in a week. Whole topics dedicated to stories about how awful our guys are, and how immoral our troops are behaving.

Say hello to the hypocrite, when Iraqi's dont speak out when their side commits atrocities Mike Brewer claims they support the actions and starts threads screaming for a Muslim to complain, he swears the very few people speaking out prove how all the Muslims are supporting the behavior by remaining quiet....yet when I decry the VERY SAME behaviors from Americans, I'm unAmaerican...if the Muslims dont speak out when their people commit evil Muslims are bad....If Americans commit evil and an American speaks out the American is bad. Brewers a hypocrite at minimum.

[Troll Virus]

I've never met anyone so bent on defending rapist and murders. My post are anti rapist and murders but for some reason Mike Brewer thinks all Americans are rapist and Murders....

'Rape' seems to be a HUGE personal issue for you, as you've mentiond it many times before.
I'm truly sorry if this is a personal experience of you or yours.

Boarspear, I'd love to take your points on board, but seeing as you would not afford me the human decency of 'reasonable doubt' in the past, I'm struggling!

If you struggle to remember about 'reasonable doubt', that's when you had me in your sig as a "Whiniest Troll".
Mike, despite your (unbeknownst to me)animosity, attempted to mediate.
Now that I seem to be saying something you can take advantage of, you're all for it.

Not taking one side nor another, but Mike never did that!

Nor did he try and influence members here by posting stuff in their sig, which is what you did to me and now do to Mike.

It makes you more weasel than man and that's dissapointing to me, because I've enjoyed some of your posts, especially on CMA.

[BoarSpear]

I'm not seeing posts here from anyone currently serving over there?

The only member I'm aware of from this board who is currently there is Velcroninja, he quit posting over Brewers nonsense awhile ago....aside form that the only person on this board I'm aware of who ever set foot in either current war zone is me...but somehow we get shouted down by the resident experts who I suspect have never been close to either region...... much less combat.

[BoarSpear]

If Boar chooses to seek out and re-post anti-American

I've never met anyone so bent on defending rapist and murders. My post are anti rapist and murders but for some reason Mike Brewer thinks all Americans are rapist and Murders...now I've NEVER said that but Mr Brewer sure chooses to read my post that way....I wonder what his real problem with my pointing out rapist/murders and piss poor leadership is...because damn if he doesn't object strenuously to it being reported, never once does he complain it happened...but damn he screams when it gets reported... really makes you wonder why he is soooo bent on stopping this from being pointed out. I mean really, it's anti American to report the activities of the US Military? Maybe the Us Military is guilty of Un American Actions and its too fucking embarrassing to see it reported...so instead of screaming for the behavior to stop he wants the reporting of it stopped...But I'm Anti-American according to the guy who supports covering up rape and murder.

[Troll Virus]

So if I become a quote whore and simply post other people's opinions, I'm innocent?

If Boar chooses to seek out and re-post anti-American stories and articles, that's his right. But it does not divorce him from criticism. Choosing to quote the people and stories he quotes casts him very clearly in a particular light. That he chooses to quote without answering for his own opinions makes that light even more negative. For instance, I still have not seen him (or you, as his apparent champion) reconcile the statement that "we need to stop casting stones until we get our own house in order" with the apparent lack of concern for the far greater numbers and occurences of offenses here at home. I have not seen any reconciliation for the founding philosophy of "responsible BoarSpear self defense" of fight dirty and don't play by the rules, and the all-too-monotonous rants about how our fighting men are not fighting fair in Iraq. In short, there is a great inconsistency of character in nearly everything he posts. Excuse me....everything he chooses to quote.

I provide my own opinions because I am not afraid to let people know where I stand. I am not interested in building in an excuse by saying, "This is just what some other guy wrote. You don't like it? Go talk to him." No, when I post my opinions, they are just that - mine, and opinions. I've been wrong plenty of times, and I've admitted it freely.

I'm not seeing posts here from anyone currently serving over there?

I've counted no less than a half-dozen blatantly anti-US posts by Boar in a week. Whole topics dedicated to stories about how awful our guys are, and how immoral our troops are behaving. Maybe it's just irresponsible choices in which journalists to quote. Maybe he really feels like casting our guys in a negative light is the way to get politicians to listen. (assuming, of course, that they peruse defend.net with some regularity)

Well , one of the points I was trying to get at before my thread was locked, was the issue of responsibility.
Are the troops responsible, or their officers?
Are the officers responsible, or their intelligence?
Are the intelligence responsible, or the government?
Are the government responsible, or are those who voted for them?

Either way, I think it makes him a detriment to all the guys who are over there doing it right, which is by all accounts a far greater number than the minority he's choosing to spotlight. But I could be wrong. We'll see how the guys who fought well and idd it right get treated as a result of the flood of negative articles and harmelss quotes.

Relying on 'media', from whatever orientation, is no foundation for constructive debate!

[Troll Virus]

Have you ever read any Nietzsche, specifically any of his thoughts on "slave morality"?

Can't say I have, but one quote of his that sticks in my head is "there can be no art without intoxication"

here's the point, the logic you're following looks outside yourself to first define what is "evil". "good" then comes about as that which is opposed to evil. basically this means you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys. this is "slave morality".

Not quite.
It means "you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys by an outside parties definition".

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men.

The most powerful military forces in the world are largely made up of average men.

If you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different.

How so?

If we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there.

What unwavering standards of goodness did we establish exactly?

If we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

Indeed.

[Tom Yum]

Boar's logic is the logic of the ancient Greeks. you look at yourself to determine what is good. that standard you come up with is not held in relation to what other's do. it is absolute. no matter how many planes they fly into our buildings, it's still wrong to rape, it's still wrong to drive down 5 miles of highway shooting bystanders because you're scared, it's still wrong to steal f***ing candy from babies.

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men. if you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different. if we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there. if we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

Good stuff, Jibbo.

[BoarSpear]

Have you ever read any Nietzsche, specifically any of his thoughts on "slave morality"? you can find the text of On the Genealogy of Morals for free online. Check out the first essay "Good and Bad," "Good and Evil". it's a good bit of light reading, as Nietzsche goes

here's the point, the logic you're following looks outside yourself to first define what is "evil". "good" then comes about as that which is opposed to evil. basically this means you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys. this is "slave morality".

Boar's logic is the logic of the ancient Greeks. you look at yourself to determine what is good. that standard you come up with is not held in relation to what other's do. it is absolute. no matter how many planes they fly into our buildings, it's still wrong to rape, it's still wrong to drive down 5 miles of highway shooting bystanders because you're scared, it's still wrong to steal f***ing candy from babies.

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men. if you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different. if we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there. if we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

Incredible post Sir!!

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

Great post, Judo Jibboo.

Thank you sir

http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/Niet...genealogy1.htm and here's the essay i'm talking about if anyone's interested. i own the book so i don't know how great this specific translation is but i'm sure it'll at least get the ideas across.

[Uke]

Have you ever read any Nietzsche, specifically any of his thoughts on "slave morality"? you can find the text of On the Genealogy of Morals for free online. Check out the first essay "Good and Bad," "Good and Evil". it's a good bit of light reading, as Nietzsche goes

here's the point, the logic you're following looks outside yourself to first define what is "evil". "good" then comes about as that which is opposed to evil. basically this means you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys. this is "slave morality".

Boar's logic is the logic of the ancient Greeks. you look at yourself to determine what is good. that standard you come up with is not held in relation to what other's do. it is absolute. no matter how many planes they fly into our buildings, it's still wrong to rape, it's still wrong to drive down 5 miles of highway shooting bystanders because you're scared, it's still wrong to steal f***ing candy from babies.

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men. if you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different. if we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there. if we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

Great post, Judo Jibboo.

[The_Judo_Jibboo]

I don't blame the people who report rapists, I blame terrorists who crash planes into buildings and despotic dictators who rape and murder their own people,

Have you ever read any Nietzsche, specifically any of his thoughts on "slave morality"? you can find the text of On the Genealogy of Morals for free online. Check out the first essay "Good and Bad," "Good and Evil". it's a good bit of light reading, as Nietzsche goes

here's the point, the logic you're following looks outside yourself to first define what is "evil". "good" then comes about as that which is opposed to evil. basically this means you're ok as long as you're less evil than the evil guys. this is "slave morality".

Boar's logic is the logic of the ancient Greeks. you look at yourself to determine what is good. that standard you come up with is not held in relation to what other's do. it is absolute. no matter how many planes they fly into our buildings, it's still wrong to rape, it's still wrong to drive down 5 miles of highway shooting bystanders because you're scared, it's still wrong to steal f***ing candy from babies.

The most powerful military in the world must hold itself to higher standards than average men. if you're attacked in a dark alley by three men with weapons, it's ok to fight dirty. by all means kick, scratch, bite, grab a handful of nuts and twist. but a war, an invasion, is different. if we can't accomplish in Iraq what we want to accomplish while at the same time never compromising the unwavering standards of goodness we have established for ourselves, we have no business there. if we compromise, there is no outcome but violence forever.

[Uke]

I don't think our country is unscrupulous; I love my country and I would fight to defend it. Personally I do not see the war in Iraq as an urgent military action; it seems more strategic. I'm sure Bush has reasons for engaging the war - what they are is becoming less and less obvious from his original intent. And as far as I can tell from press releases, he did not follow the advice of his generals. Again, a reason why one would hope future Presidents come from stronger military backgrounds.

If we are to judge by inhumane acts, our country ranks at the top. There has been a long history of slavery throughout the world, and very few have treated their slaves and inhumanely as the Americans. The slave trade is the obvious mark on this nation so I won't focus on that. Let's not forget the Salem Witch Trials, giving the small pox blankets to the indians, the manifest destiny, the Klan, the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, Jim Crow, introducing cocaine on a large scale to poor black communities, and all the raping, killing, torturing and subjugation that came along with those events. And that's just to name a few.

As far as Bush goes, he's given his reasons for war. None of which we've accomplished. But this isn't about that. This is about one man feeling as though another man's opinion is somehow less noble than his own. He does a pretty good job of shelling out bias that feeds his agenda as well.

Boar comes from a long-line of military men, it seems. I suppose it makes sense that his family can compare their experiences and war politics with the commander in chief at the time, since he ultimately decides when and where we go to war - so it makes sense that he look at our current President, since this is his war.

I don't know to what extent our troops would be murderers or rapists, but when I hear stories about Marines or Soldiers firing into groups of people, its probably because some terrorist sh!t bag is using them as anonymous cover to fire off a weapon or an explosive at our men.

You don't know, but you're more than comfortable enough to drum up suppositions? I'm not surprised. Its on this very same forum that people told me that they know that a mugger won't have trained as extensively as they have. Soldiers can't be low lifes anymore than a mugger can be a trained killer.

The civillians that die were never intended as the targets, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. I can see how the media would want to capitalize on this, since afterall, the media is a business and you either make money or go out of business. And a story titled "Iraqi Civillians Killed by US Soliders" will sell more papers among a liberal and anti-war subsription base, rather than a story titled "Soldiers Return Fire."

I have many friends who have been there and have said that if a friend dies next to you and all you feel is anger, its not hard to let off a barrage of ammo at anything that moves at that point because your grief overwhelms you. Its not just in Iraq. That a reality of war everywhere. If you think that hasn't happened dozens of times there in the span of time that we've occupied that region, then you are very naive.

This is not a war like U.S./EU vs. Germany & Japan. The enemy is not clearly defined by uniform and fighting for their nation; they are fighting for an extremist cause - they wish death on infidel non-believers.

They wish death on believers as well as is apparent when they kill among themselves. That "death to the infidels" deal has been done to death. The Al Qaeda is not the spokesperson for Iraq, or for Islam. That bullshit just makes it easier for us to do terrible things there because its easier to kill when you believe every person there hates you for not being different.

Could you imagine that Al Qaeda was only 10,000 strong? How could we justify doing what we've done? Look at what the American Media has done. They've dug up an old past about Iraq and Saddam to justify the unjustifiable: We invaded Iraq without and I quote "UN approval which made our subsequent invasion explicitly illegal under the UN Charter, under international law as agreed to by the U.S. through treaty (and hence also illegal under U.S. law), and under war crimes conventions that describe such aggressive war as the “supreme crime.”

That's the same thing that the American Media does when the American police shoot unarmed citizens 43 times. They dig up some old dirt about the victims that has nothing to do with the situation at hand to make the masses think that they were pieces of garbage and were probably engaged in some activity that warranted it. What the American Media did in Iraq was no different. A spin job is a spin job. Is there any wonder why Bush and Conde are looking to pass legislature that would exonerate the Bush administration when talks of bringing them up on war crimes started buzzing?

Really, I could care less to discuss politics here. I really only came to write my first post on this topic and only that.