Flag Burning

[Garland]

Okay, a few more questions...this stuff's great, I'm loving the response I'm getting so far.

What do you guys think about Sen. Orrin Hatch's proposed Bill to Ammend the United States Consitution to prohibit the desecration or burning of the American flag?

What about burning a confederate flag?

Of those of you who find flag burning especially distasteful, why do you think people resort to it, is it a sort of shock tactic, or is there any real symbolic value behind burning an American flag? (aside from when you're supposed to burn it, i.e. when it's damaged or in certain forms of honorable ceremony where it is tradition to light up Old Glory.)

From what I see so far, all of you find burning the flag reprehensible, but nevertheless, a form of free speech protected by the Constitution. What makes it protected speech?

What do you think about the flaunting of the flag lately, could it be a sense of falsely inflated patriotism? Is this the sort of thing that the pro-amendment people could be clinging to, or what, in your opinion, is their motivation?


-again, Thanks.

-G

[Garland]

Also...of those of you that find flag burning offensive, what about the flag as a marketing ploy, or flag designed t-shirts, bed sheets, on products, etc.?

Does the mass proliferation of the flag on consumer products tie into nationalism?

I have no idea, I'm just throwing some thoughts out there.

[Garland]

But Mike how can we get along at recess without rules. Like what words we can and can't say.

How will we live without government telling us what we can do.

you should read the "Grand Inquisitor" chapter of the Dostoyevsky's "Brothers Karamazov".
I think he adresses the problem pretty well. So does Nizsche, a little, in "Master and Slave Morality".

[BoarSpear]

Okay, a few more questions...this stuff's great, I'm loving the response I'm getting so far.

What do you guys think about Sen. Orrin Hatch's proposed Bill to Ammend the United States Consitution to prohibit the desecration or burning of the American flag?

What about burning a confederate flag?

Its B.S. freedom of speech is just that, we dont have to like it (flag burning), anymore than they have to like the ass kicking i give them for it. like it or not its protected as an expressive act...sort of like flipping a cop the finger

Of those of you who find flag burning especially distasteful, why do you think people resort to it, is it a sort of shock tactic, or is there any real symbolic value behind burning an American flag? (aside from when you're supposed to burn it, i.e. when it's damaged or in certain forms of honorable ceremony where it is tradition to light up Old Glory.)

They do it to express disgust with us and our policies...its an act designed to get attention. I have to say the monks who set themselves on fire make a much bigger statement than some yahoo who burns a flag in protest. Impress me go ahead wrap yourself in it ...THEN ignite it

Burning a Confederate flag on the other hand is just plain ignorant...its history people, go ahead burn the flags, the uniforms, the confederate money, it doesent change history. It just shows you want to hide history.

From what I see so far, all of you find burning the flag reprehensible, but nevertheless, a form of free speech protected by the Constitution. What makes it protected speech?

a picture is worth a thousand words. Its a political statement.

What do you think about the flaunting of the flag lately, could it be a sense of falsely inflated patriotism? Is this the sort of thing that the pro-amendment people could be clinging to, or what, in your opinion, is their motivation?
-again, Thanks.

-G

People want to feel connected, like their doing the right thing...gotta show that support for the war and our poor misunderstood president. We cant admit we were wrong now. So wave that flag and Pray or you aint fit to be a citizen....

[BoarSpear]

Also...of those of you that find flag burning offensive, what about the flag as a marketing ploy, or flag designed t-shirts, bed sheets, on products, etc.?

Does the mass proliferation of the flag on consumer products tie into nationalism?

I have no idea, I'm just throwing some thoughts out there.

Does kicking some guys ass for having the American flag patch on the seat of his pants count as my opinion?

[GonzoStyles]

Just Thought id chime in with my two cents;
here in Texas we have the constitutional right to fly our state flag at the same height as the flag of the U.S.A. and we are the only state that has this right, this is due to our brief history as an independent republic (we also have the constitutional right to secede[spell check plz?] and divide into as many as 3 seperate states) out here where I am working (Eagle Pass TX on the border with Mexico) you see the flag of Mexico just as frequently as the American flag. What I am I saying? is that a flag as a symbol must be carefully and respectfully used ( just like Mr.Mike pointed out). The flag brings feelings of pride and honor to those who have served in defence of the ideals it represents, but to use it as a rallying tool for spreading hate or for making money is just as disgraceful as burning it in my eyes. Coming from a racially diverse background as well as from a family that has had a history of getting the short end of the stick from the government gives me mixed thoughts on this issue, Cause I am just as proud of being a Texan as an American, just as proud of my Mexican/Indian heritage as my French and Irish blood.

anyways that just my .02$

[BoarSpear]

How am I missing the point in saying that it's my opinion people should be free to choose? The topic asked for an opinion, and I gave mine. I don't feel it should be a statutory or regulatory concern who says what, believes what, how they demonstrate their belief, etc. I am saying simply that the government, if truly concerned about the separation of church and state (meaning that the state is not allowed to rule in favor of or against religion issues in the first place), then the government should politely excuse themselves from any and all debates on the subject not directly related to the running of the country.

In a nutshell, Boar, I am saying that it is up to people to recognize that their freedoms do not overlap those of others. You may hate a flag burner as much as I do. You may be offended that a schoolkid wants to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. You may feel like the extreme right-wing Christians are running us into the ground as a nation. But it doesn't mean you have any right at all to tell them they can't. You DO have the right to debate them, to protest their actions, to assemble and make your side heard, and to try to win the public support to your own cause, but your right to your opinion does not grant you the freedom from being offended by others.

I agree with you (as I said a bunch of times before) that nobody should be obligated to say anything they don't firmly and of their own volition believe. What I am saying is that they should be allowed to if they choose. And if I'm wrong? So what? My right to believe it and talk openly about it are part of the guarantee we're talking about.
.

I think if we were in the same room we would agree faster Mike, you cant get the tones and inflections on the net. I dont mind them saying the pledge. I minded the christians (in the government) slipping in "under god" in the first place.

I have no problem with prayer in school so long as the pagan gets his time, the muslim gets his and the agnostic can reflect while the athiest gets a smoke break while the Christians talk to god. Equality and freedom for all not just those who happen to "KNOW" they are in the "RIGHT" religion

Bush did say "WE dont torture" But how he said it doesnt matter, its all a lie. I went to S.E.R.E school dont tell me waterboarding isnt torture Plenty of the things done there pass for torture, and we do that to each other for training. We also all know how hard hazing gets in the military, again among friends...now please dont insult my intellegence and tell me we are nicer to our enemies than we are each other

"We do not torture and therefore we're working with Congress to make sure that as we go forward, we make it more possible to do our job," Bush said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051107/ts_nm/bush_torture_dc_5

As for the willie peter, if im not mistaken its considered a chemical weapon by international law. The pictures available on the net cleary show dead civilians in thier beds essentially carmalized while their clothes survived...The stories and pictures now surfacing show it was more than illumination rounds that accidentally got a few people.

Im not saying dont fight hard, but stop doing shit like this that makes us look bad and creates more terrorist!! We supposedly went in to Iraq because they might have had chemical weapons...We on the other hand used them...granted their technically an incendiary but thats a loophole...guess what though, its still illegal to use them on civilian populations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4417024.stm

[cam427]

I had an experience that backs up what Mike is saying about choice.

When I joined the army I was asked if I believed in God. When I said no I was given an athiest version of the oath to make when being sworn in. That is true freedom. I had the chioce on how to make the oath depending on my personal beliefs.

On the other hand as soon as you allow religion in schools you will have religious zealots trying to force it on the kids. Here in Ireland (Where church and state are almost the same thing) my kids get asked every monday who went to church and are treated badly because they did not.

There is nothing like religion to take away your freedom and I believe that the reason Australia is so free (in every way) is because religion has almost no hold over anything.

Cam

[Tom Yum]

Boarspear made an interesting point about having In God We Trust on our money and it does stir emotions. If you look at money and what it is capable of, its a tool at best or a means of exchange.

I am a Christian and what bothers me about the In God We Trust phrase is that bills are exchanged for so many reasons that do not put trust in God.

We all do it, Christian or not.

That's a sobering thought that I'll ponder on.

[Garland]

I am a Christian and what bothers me about the In God We Trust phrase is that bills are exchanged for so many reasons that do not put trust in God.

Truth of the matter is, money IS god, and we place our trust in it.

[treelizard]

I am a Christian and what bothers me about the In God We Trust phrase is that bills are exchanged for so many reasons that do not put trust in God.

I figure you have to trust in God to use our currency since it's not backed up by gold anymore...

[BoarSpear]

I figure you have to trust in God to use our currency since it's not backed up by gold anymore...

BWAHAHAHAHA............

that was funny, till i thought about it.

[BoarSpear]

We're venturing seriously off topic here, but isn't it mind-numbing the things we do in the name of little scraps of paper with pictures of dead guys on it?

Im not so sure you can separate money, the words on it, the things we do with it, and flag burning. Without people who would turn their fanatical beliefs into your laws, while selling the the country out from underneath us for MONEY from "special interest groups" people wouldnt be so inclined to burn the American flag.

When was the last time someone burned a Swedish flag for instance?

After all isnt WHY people burn the flag part of the dynamic?

Obviously they dont like us, but why dont they like us?

[PFC_Kurtz_John]

Right out burning the Flag is wrong. The Flag stand for our great nation. To burn or desacrate the Flag is to spit in the face of every man or women that has fought to defend and up hold everything that great Flag stands for. For a soldier that flag represents our great country. I take great pride in the flag and personaly i will .......... incapacitate anyone i see who burns it. Now when a Flag is un repairable and you serperate the Stars and Stripes then its ok to burn it as it no longer represents the Flag.

[medic06]

Im also not so sure that my first choice of American heroes would have been King and Parks...Many a good man has come home in a box, or in pieces for defending that flag and the Freedoms it stood for. Simply yelling about your rights is hardly the same as participating in wholesale slaughter to insure them...
If those men hadnt died for the protesters rights, they wouldnt have any, lets not forget who the real heroes are.

OK, I take exception to that. While King and Parks were not in the military, many of the citizens who started the civil rights movement were veterans of WWII, who first had to fight for their right to fight, then went on to fight the axis powers. they shed blood for a country which thought of them as second class citizens but still fought as hard and as bravely as anyone.