Wtf??

[BoarSpear]

From what I've heard from some good sources, the Jewish Underground beat the British and they withdrew, and they weren't "given" the land. In fact I just ordered a book called "The Secret War Against the Jews" by John Loftus which I've heard proves the U.N. did not give the land up willingly.

But even if you were right and it HAD been "given"--I thought you were against American Indian Policy? What gives the U.S. the RIGHT to tell an entire country where to go, when people fought and bled and DIED for that land? Like I pointed out, Israel and the U.S. do not have a one-sided relationship, and Israel is not telling the U.S. where to go or what to do... And Israel took the UNPROVOKED scud missiles from Iraq when they weren't even in the Coalition...

Nothing gives us the right. what gives you the right to drag us into it?

You wanna stay? STAY...without ANY of the "credits" (glad you consider my disarming explosives for your country a credit) you wanna dismiss so easily. No more troops, no more weapons deals, youre on your own...if some other country wants to come to your aid great. The terrorist can plot against them not the USA.

...and youre right we havent had Arab problems since WW2 it was around the early 1900's when the trouble started.

you can prove how willing to die for your beliefs you are, We can clear our conscience and say...We gave them option to leave, Hell we offered them a part of OUR country... whaddya want us to die for your beliefs and rights? As an american I have far greater worries than jewish-arab relations, until i start paying the price of YOUR conflict that is .

[BoarSpear]

Which I've heard argued was created as a way for the British to save face after the Jewish Underground kicked their ass. I'm gonna research this some more and will get back to you.

Oh so you admit the jews used terrorism to bully the British out...Yep thats what happened alright...I was wondering if you were gonna slip up and brag about how tough the jewish underground was

hey the arabs saw how well it worked for you...it seems some of your early hereos were ugh errrr well they had used questionable tactics in their struggle for power...

So since you admit you subverted the process, doesnt that imply bad faith from the get go? and wouldnt that negate the whole treaty? HMMMM

I cannot imagine how so many people have trust issues with your people,
you accidentally repeatedly attacked our ship,then attacked the lifeboats... you claim the jewish underground chased the Britts out and the balfour treaty is a sham to save face for the British...and were your strongest supporters I would hate to be your enemy

[BoarSpear]

for comparitive purposes, so you can see how hard it would have been to distinguish the american ship from the supposed egyptian ship...

in the Israeli's defense, they are both ships but the similarity ends there...

[jubaji]

Somebody's gonna start breaking glass soon....

[treelizard]

1. If the U.S. abandoned Israel (their allies, who have HELPED them in so many ways) it would not stop Arab hatred of the U.S. It would be seen as a sign of weakness. And rightly so. Only weak losers abandon their allies in the trenches.

2. Just a quickie question-- if you really believe that the Arabs only hate Jews and not Americans, why move them to the U.S.? Wouldn't that put you in a MORE vulnerable position?

3. The fact that I am not in the IDF at the moment (even though I should be) in no way negates the effort of these brave men and women who put themselves on the line for my ass, and I honor them for it.

4. Your alleging questionable tactics used by Israel in no way undermines their claim to the land--it is called WAR. And please name a country that has never used questionable tactics!

5. Defending one's self is not necessarily "subverting the process."

6. If bad faith would negate entire treaties, then everyone in the U.S. should move back to England.

7. To justify "trust issues" with an entire people based on ONE incident is questionable at best, please tell me that the U.S. has never been accused of targetting civilians, hospitals or Chinese embassies.

8. I'm not sure whether or not Israel would be safer with or without Israel's support, especially with the U.S. putting Israel in such a vulnerable position by coercing them to give Gaza over to terrorists. I'm also doubtful that the U.S. would be in a safer place (see #1, not to mention the intelligence, airspace, training, 600+ suggestions for improvements in fighter jets, etc. that Israel supplies.) Fact is though...uh, see #1.

9. You are buying into FEAR-based propaganda from the Al Qaeda spin machine. I mean imagine if the U.S. told Arab states to stop blindly supporting Palestinians, or else Americans will hate them, and continue to hate them until they comply. Doesn't that sound ridiculous? Is there some reason that Arab nations somehow have the right to support "Palestine" while Americans don't have the right to support Israel? Arabs support other Arabs because they share political and cultural characteristics, but so do the U.S. and Israel. Such as, uh, DEMOCRACY for instance. Do you really think these shared values
just COINCIDENTALY produced the alignments during the Cold War in which the U.S. and Israel were on one side and Arabs sided with the Soviet Union?

Yael

[treelizard]

When Lovers Become Strangers. Why the Saudis Cheated on America.
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | May 10, 2002

SOMETIMES lovers become strangers.

The U.S.-Saudi love affair is a case in point. It’s over. It has actually been over for quite some time now; it’s just that the Americans didn’t know it yet.

It took September 11 for the Americans to smell the coffee. That’s because the Saudis were heavily implicated in the terrible terrorist attacks that occurred on that tragic day.

But yes, there was a loving relationship for more than a half century. The partnership was of mutual benefit to both parties and it reached its zenith when the two countries confronted Saddam Hussein in Kuwait in 1990-1991.

You could say that the 1980s were the "golden years" of the American-Saudi romance. That’s when the two lovers were on the same side in the Cold War.

Both countries funded the rebels in Afghanistan against the Soviet invaders. Both worked to contain the fanaticism of the Iranian revolution in 1979 which explains why they supported Iraq launching its war against Iran in 1980. The Saudis also helped fund the American-backed Contra rebels against the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.

And there were also economic ties. Most importantly, the Saudis faithfully kept their oil prices and supplies at levels that suited the American market.

But then, with the crumbling of the Soviet Empire, something new began to happen.

With the Evil Empire gone, Saudi Arabia realized it didn’t really love, or need to love, America as it once did. So it started a secret and duplicitous love affair.

It began an affair with the forces that sought to destroy America, as well as the Western world overall. That’s what the Saudis always wanted to do it’s just that they had to put that particular objective on the backburner during the Cold War.

Just recently, we have learned that the Saudis, along with Saddam Hussein, have been giving "blood money" to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers and to each Palestinian who is wounded while trying to kill Jews.

The Israelis have also just recently unearthed evidence that confirms what American intelligence already knew: that the Saudis have been bankrolling Islamic terrorism against the West for years. They have donated large sums of money and arms to bin Laden, al Qaeda and the Taliban. Three major organizations that have laundered money for bin Laden and other terrorists, for instance, received millions of dollars from the Saudis.

Just recently, it has been discovered that Saudi Arabia is funding the Hamas terrorist group to enable it to produce a short-range missile called the "Qassam."

The Saudi money flow to all of these groups is still to be cut off.

Keep in mind that bin Laden, his terrorist network, and the Taliban all acquired their psychotic philosophy from the Wahhabi ideology, a form of Islamic fascism that rules in Saudi Arabia.

The Saudis export their religious hatred. They send aid, for instance, to foreign Islamic religious schools that teach Wahhabi ideology and other forms of fundamentalist political Islam.

It is no coincidence, therefore, that 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia. The rulers, after all, oversaw the recruitment of approximately 25,000 Saudis to wage holy war against Israel, America and the West.

The Saudis, in other words, bear a heavy responsibility for September 11.

No wonder the House of Saud has been so stubbornly uncooperative with the United States in investigating the terrorist attacks, in supporting the U.S. war in Afghanistan, and in stopping their funding of jihad groups.

As a matter of fact, U.S. intelligence sources have confirmed that, at this very moment, Saudi Arabia is spending millions of dollars to help al Qaeda and Taliban fighters escape American justice.

All of this makes perfect sense of course: why should the Saudis help in a war that is targeted against themselves?

The Saudis, you see, hate America. And they hate the West.

It doesn’t really take a rocket-scientist to figure out why the Saudis have launched this new war in the post-Cold War era. The end of the Cold War terminated the clash of political ideologies and yielded the clash of civilizations Western vs. Islamic.

Let’s get one thing straight: The Saudi and Arab hatred of America and the West has nothing to do with Washington’s support of Israel. It has everything to do with envy and resentment. The Arab world simply feels an excruciating sense of humiliation because of its pathetic impotence in the face of Western success. Thus, in a desperate attempt to avoid confronting the reality that its civilization is a basket case, the Arab world entertains a delusional belief in some kind of lost glory which has been stolen by the Westerners in general and by the evil Jews in particular.

It is not the easiest thing for Arabs to reconcile themselves with the reality that their culture has yet to produce one prosperous, functional and democratic society. Yet not only must they face this fact in the context of the success of the Western world, they must also face it in the context of how the Jews came to a tiny little stretch of desert in their midst fifty years ago and built the most powerful economic and industrial nation and the only democratic nation in the entire Middle East.

Today, the Arabs hate Israel, like they hate America and the West, because it is the concrete symbol of the utter failure of Arab civilization.

One can only imagine the fury that must exist among a people who have to depend on a civilization that they despise. Indeed, the Arabs know subconsciously that the West is superior, but they must daily convince themselves against all the empirical realities in front of them that it is inferior.

The Saudi ruling regime, meanwhile, is the host of the holy places of Islam, and yet it is obvious that without U.S. protection and support, it would crumble overnight. Indeed, the Saudis have no choice but to do business with the United States. They need American weapons. And only the U.S. can protect their strategic interests as Operation Desert Storm revealed.

One can only imagine the humiliation the Saudis feel in being the caretakers of Islam's holiest shrines, but simultaneously being pathetically dependent on infidels for their own survival.

It is obvious how a deep-rooted and intense hatred of America fertilizes itself in this dynamic. Another phenomenon, meanwhile, blends into this hatred: the fuelling of anti-Americanism because of a rendezvous with Americanism.

Today, the Saudis who most hate America and the West are not those who Western Leftists wish they would be: the poor and downtrodden Saudis who are the victims of unequal distribution of wealth. To the contrary: they are the wealthy individuals who have studied in American universities and spent time in American society. They are the approximate 200,000 American-educated Saudis who could not thwart their desires while they intoxicated themselves with American freedom.

Just recently, the 100 or so Saudi intellectuals who issued a virulent anti-U.S. petition were precisely the members of this group.

What is happening here?

What is happening is that this new stratum of Saudis feel that it is only by defying, and destroying, the United States and the West that they can achieve some kind of dignity, self-control, forgiveness, revenge and, yes, personal amnesia.

For the American-educated Saudis, a certain schizophrenia has developed in their psyche because of the dual and incompatible lives that Islam and America nurtures in them. When in America, many of them enjoy the wonderful benefits of a free society; they go about as they please, talk with whom they please, listen to the kind of music they please, drink alcohol, dance and, yes, even have sex. Many of the Saudi women even take their veils and robes Islam’s body bags for the living off.

But then, it’s time to go back to prison back to Saudi Arabia. The veils and robes go back on, the spontaneous freedom ends, and the miserable and depressing life of strict Islamic living returns. While they long for the freedom they cherished and enjoyed, these Saudis simultaneously indulge in tremendous guilt and self-loathing for they have violated the Islamic codes they venerate. This self-hatred leads to a hatred of the entity that tempted them in the first place.

It becomes clear why traditional Saudi theologians condemn suicide bombings as terrorism and the new American-educated and secular Saudis hail it. Unlike the traditionalists, they have come into contact with Satan and danced with him. They must now annihilate him in order to annihilate the natural parts of themselves that they hate.

This whole phenomenon is directly connected to why suicide bombers blow themselves up. Expressed through suicide, Jihad allows the Muslim males to punish themselves for the agonizing guilt they harbor regarding their sexual feelings for women -- who are demonized in Islam.

Muslim males hate women because they are symbols of their own lust and repressed sexuality. As a result, males must oppress and denigrate the object of their lust. But this does not mean that males’ natural attraction toward the opposite sex disappears. The result is excruciating sexual rage and guilt. The problem is that wherever men oppress and despise women, a collective form of suicidal behavior emerges. In the Muslim Arab world, the society is so pathological that suicide takes on a literal form.

Thus, it only makes sense that Islamic terrorists violently strike out against American freedom in the same way that they strike out against their own women: they hate what stimulates their desire and guilt. In punishing America, they punish their own sinful urges.

All of this perfectly explains why the Saudis who hate America the most are the ones who fell in love with America and with the freedom it temporarily bestowed on them. Now engulfed with the guilt of having sinned against Islam’s rigid moral code, these Saudis need to punish themselves as well as those who have tempted them.

But instead of blowing themselves up, these well-to-do and American-educated Saudis have the luxury of exempting themselves from martyrdom, and seeking penance through funding it instead.

It is this new Saudi Arabia that now exerts the most influence on the Saudi regime. No wonder the House of Saud was so massively implicated in 9/11.

The Saudi-American love affair is over.

The sooner the Americans face it, the safer Americans will be.

That’s because, once the U.S. spurns the Saudis once and for all, Americans will have alliances with real friends and not with the serpents who smile in their faces while funding and training the demons who fly planes into American skyscrapers filled with thousands of innocent people.

[BoarSpear]

Yeah yeah yeah, the saudi's aint our friends...no shit
Why is that? Oh yeah, because we support their most hated enemy...

Im sure there are other reasons, but those arent the ones that make it so easy to recruit suicide bombers...

[treelizard]

Wow, I just made 9 solid points, and the best you can come up with is repeating Al Qaeda propaganda?

If Israel stopped accepting credits from the US, they could also charge the U.S. money for sharing intelligence, improving or sharing technology, storing U.S. weapons, access to airspace, etc. in addition to developing their weapons system and also Israel could earn far more money in their deals to China and S. America that the US made them pull out of.

Again I posit that if the U.S. abandons Israel it would put the U.S. in a MORE vulnerable position. Only weak losers abandon their allies in the trenches.

[BoarSpear]

Wow, I just made 9 solid points, and the best you can come up with is repeating Al Qaeda propaganda?

If Israel stopped accepting credits from the US, they could also charge the U.S. money for sharing intelligence, improving or sharing technology, storing U.S. weapons, access to airspace, etc. in addition to developing their weapons system and also Israel could earn far more money in their deals to China and S. America that the US made them pull out of.

Again I posit that if the U.S. abandons Israel it would put the U.S. in a MORE vulnerable position. Only weak losers abandon their allies in the trenches.

by your own admission your underground forced the treaty to get what you wanted....that doesnt seem like you are our allies...you used terrorism to force the British out...now you want to call us losers for not being willing to go to WW3 so help you out of the hole you dug?

you forced this situation on the entire world (by using terrorism to force the treaty)...now you want to call me a weak loser for not supporting you when its an obvious ticking nuclear time bomb?


If we werent trying to keep Israel alive we wouldnt have all the problems in the first place.

You know it really sounds like you think Israel doesnt get enough money from the USA...Like we owe you more...hmm yeah i wonder what kind of weapons we store there you want money for? All i hear from you is more money more money and kill all ARABS...you aint improving your image any....
With attitudes like yours it no wonder you have so many allies

I certainly wouldnt disarm any more bombs for your nation after this discussion...good job making allies...as usual.

and gee im real sorry we stopped you from making money by selling weapons to our potential enemies...

i seem to remember quite a few terrorist actions in the middle 80's when a certain country tried to sell F-16s to Egypt with avionics packages Israel didnt like...SEVERAL American Airforce and British Advisors were captured tortured and killed..by Mossad..yeah youre our allies...Your people use anyone they can, guilt trip when ever they can, and stab us in the back when you dont like what we do...then you wonder why people have issues with your people.

[BoarSpear]

Wow, I just made 9 solid points, and the best you can come up with is repeating Al Qaeda propaganda?

huh... you mean Al Qaeda said they only bombed the world trade center because we support Israel?

so you think its BS that we get heat for supporting their arch enemy huh? Then you really dont know shit about politics or strategy...

BTW you claim you were born in Israel...yet you live in America...why is that?
Why has this American citizen defended your right to live there, while you live here? What the hell is that? Perhaps someone decided baby lizard wasnt safe there? Guess what..now my babies arent safe HERE at home...thanks ever so much.

did you grow up here or in Israel? your attitudes dont sound like ANY of the people i met and respected while i was stationed there, you sound like an Israeli born citizen who grew up in America. The israeli's i met were extremely fit and friendly people with nothing but thanks for all the things we did for them...YOU on the other hand.......dont strike me like those people at all.
when was the last time you were there? how old were you?

[BoarSpear]

Hey BoarSpear, what's the answer to a war of ideology?

Koach v'ahavah,
Yael

was this the question you said i avoided?...isnt ideology a nice way of saying religious beliefs?

why should i get nuked over who believes in the Easter bunny?

Oh wait youre the one who thought your cop friend dipping his bullets in holy water was admirable....

[treelizard]

We didn't move for safety reasons, sorry. And I was just there earlier this year. I would go every year if I could but the price of airfare can be prohibitive. So I know you love to generalize about all Israelis like you just did, but guess what, I get most of my information from my friends in Israel (who are all either serving or have served) and from Israeli media. Oh yeah, and they like their old guns better. There is a plurality of opinions among Israeli not just one, just like there is for American Jews...just look at your buddies Amy Goodman and Noam Chomsky.

You really think Israel wouldn't exist without U.S. aid, huh? Got a bit of an ego problem? As far as the money goes, like I said Israel would make a lot more money than what the U.S. gives them off of all the weapons sales they could make on the international market, that the U.S. made them pull out of. Which isn't reciprocated by the U.S. selling weapons to Egypt. And I wonder how well the U.S. would do without access to the Haifa port, not to mention the intelligence and technology that you are so keen to ignore. And no, I don't know what weapons the U.S. is storing in the Negev.

I'm not asking for the U.S. to give Israel more money, just to stop telling them what to do. It was reported in Israeli news that the withdrawal from Gaza was REJECTED by the Kinneset when they voted on the issue, but Condoleeza told Sharon to go ahead with it. He actually fired and replaced the ministers who voted against him. So yeah, the U.S. can give Israel money, cause them to LOSE more money than they're giving them by restricting arms sales to US enemies, even though the US is giving and selling weapons to Israel's enemies, and then coerce them to unconstitutionally give away Gaza, where there are tens of tunnels used to smuggle terrorists and weapons into Israel, where terrorists are launching mortar attacks and Katusha rockets on Israeli towns, where Egypt LOST their FIFTH war on Israel and thousands of our soldiers were murdered, where the biggest patriots moved out as a buffer zone to defend the mainland because the Israeli government asked them to. Give Israel money, or don't, but butt out of their business. And I am not the only person who thinks so. In fact when Sharon fired ministers who voted against his plan (Condoleeza's plan, actually), police were arresting people on "administrative detention" with no charges, basically, to stop them from showing up. They even took haway drivers licenses of more than 400 bus drivers and threatened to arrest them for driving without a license, to try to stop people from protesting. And 60,000 people showed up anyway. Oh, and they were Israelis.

[BoarSpear]

wow so we agree, something fishy is going on huh? NONE of what any of our leaders do makes sense...We seem to undermine each other at every opportunity...not just the USA and Israel, France, Germany the Brittish etc.

What would cause all this back stabbing and deciet? Why dont we work together to find solutions, instead of taking actions that assure the problems grow? I certainly dont have the answers, and i didnt mean to get in a pissing contest with you. The people of America arent anymore in control of the decisions our leaders make than you are of yours... Our leaders screw you over, Yours have screwed ours over. why? if we truly have the same goals then we shouldnt be wrecking each others projects...

[treelizard]

My guess was that Bush was/is willing to push Israel into a very dangerous position in order to gain Arab countries as allies in his war on terror.

[jubaji]

The people of America arent anymore in control of the decisions our leaders make than you are of yours......

We're not?