Running

[treelizard]

To get back to our de facto training log, yesterday I hung out with some capoeristas and did some cartwheel (they have some weird name for it, au or something) practice and handstand practice and a lot of bike riding. Today was three 800m runs.

[Tom Yum]

Then Tom said that acupuncture isn't bad, because he knows a lot of athletes who sware by it. Interesting. I know a lot of people who sware by homeopathy....

Next, Tom Yum, who not too long ago asked me to start a thread on Chinese herbs and all these other things he doesn't believe in, stated that he believes in acupuncture because "many athletes sware by it" (very scientific), said that people should cross reference homeopathy to proven modern medicine lest they make people's injuries worse. Hmmm. Since it's all placebo anyway, how could it make things worse? I wonder. But I guess taking someone with a wrist fracture to go play tai chi couldn't possibly ever make anything worse, could it? ....

You could have side tracked the entire argument by starting off with a respected or credible source

Accupuncture/pressure is proven as an effective treatment for pain relief, not only from minor sports injuries but also for those whom are undergoing chemotherapy treatments.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain from mild Sports Injuries

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_July/ai_104259140

Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients July 2003. Kaufman, Steven J.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain related to chemotherapy treatment

http://www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/06/3-mar/3-06-hc.html

"Research studies have shown acupuncture to be effective in treating the unpleasant side effects of cancer treatment. The 1997 National Institutes of Health (NIH) Consensus Development Conference concluded that scientific evidence validated acupuncture’s effectiveness in controlling chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting."

"Western medicine has not yet completely explained why acupuncture works, though some studies suggest it may regulate the nervous system, using pain-killing endorphins and immune system cells, or may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones. "

My arguments supporting accupuncture come from real people and real studies from legitimate medical institutions, not just because I said so.

[Tom Yum]

Then Tom said that acupuncture isn't bad, because he knows a lot of athletes who sware by it. Interesting. I know a lot of people who sware by homeopathy....

Next, Tom Yum, who not too long ago asked me to start a thread on Chinese herbs and all these other things he doesn't believe in, stated that he believes in acupuncture because "many athletes sware by it" (very scientific), said that people should cross reference homeopathy to proven modern medicine lest they make people's injuries worse. Hmmm. Since it's all placebo anyway, how could it make things worse? I wonder. But I guess taking someone with a wrist fracture to go play tai chi couldn't possibly ever make anything worse, could it? ....

You could have side tracked the entire argument by starting off with a respected or credible source

Accupuncture/pressure is proven as an effective treatment for pain relief, not only from minor sports injuries but also for those whom are undergoing chemotherapy treatments.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain from mild Sports Injuries

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_July/ai_104259140

Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients July 2003. Kaufman, Steven J.

Accupuncture used to relieve pain related to chemotherapy treatment

http://www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/06/3-mar/3-06-hc.html

"Research studies have shown acupuncture to be effective in treating the unpleasant side effects of cancer treatment. The 1997 National Institutes of Health (NIH) Consensus Development Conference concluded that scientific evidence validated acupuncture’s effectiveness in controlling chemotherapy-related nausea and vomiting."

"Western medicine has not yet completely explained why acupuncture works, though some studies suggest it may regulate the nervous system, using pain-killing endorphins and immune system cells, or may alter brain chemistry by changing the release of neurotransmitters and neurohormones. "

[treelizard]

There are just as many studies that "prove" acupuncture is placebo. One of my coworkers is always putting them in my mailbox at work.

Might I also point out that you did not say one should use acupuncture because it is proven to work, but because "certain athletes sware by it."

Your flip-flop views on Chinese herbs are also quite interesting...

[Tom Yum]

Tree, I did suggest you start a thread on traditional Chinese medicines.

Keep in mind, folks here come from a wide variety of backgrounds and will scrutinize things from a common sense, scientific and pragmatic point of view.

You're going to have to come up with more convincing evidence to support your claims.

[Tom Yum]

There are just as many studies that "prove" acupuncture is placebo. One of my coworkers is always putting them in my mailbox at work.

It could be a placebo, who knows?

Its hard to argue against one of the nations top cancer research centers and many others regularly use it and swear by it. But its just a personal choice; some people may not need it at all.

[Tom Yum]

Your flip-flop views on Chinese herbs are also quite interesting...

No flip-flop views here, Tree.

I'll only support medicines and treatments that are backed by research from modern medicine. Take Ginseng, for instance.

Ginseng
Ginseng is promoted as an adaptogen (a product that increases the body's resistance to stress), a vague claim, but one which can to a certain extent be supported with reference to its anticarcinogenic and antioxidant properties.

"A comparative, randomized and double-blind government study does indicate it to be "a promising dietary supplement" when assessed for an increase in quality of life."

Caso Marasco A, Vargas Ruiz R, Salas Villagomez A, Begona Infante C. (1996). "Double-blind study of a multivitamin complex supplemented with ginseng extract". Drugs Exp Clin Res. 22 (6): 323–329. PMID 9034759

"Panax ginseng appear to inhibit some characteristics associated with cancer in animal models"

1) Shin HR, Kim JY, Yun TK, Morgan G, Vainio H (2000). "The cancer-preventive potential of Panax ginseng: a review of human and experimental evidence". Cancer Causes Control 11 (6): 565–576. PMID 10880039.

2) Vanderbilt-Ingram Cancer Research Center, Vanderbuilt Univ.

http://sitemason.vanderbilt.edu/newspub/crmQtG?id=25328

[treelizard]

It could be a placebo, who knows?

Its hard to argue against one of the nations top cancer research centers and many others regularly use it and swear by it. But its just a personal choice.

If you spend some time on Medline you can find a lot of "proof" that acupuncture doesn't work that is more convincing than your arguments (

You got me sold on accupuncture, Tree.

and

Chinese-meds ain't bad, Mike - well atleast accupuncture/accupressure. I've known a few athletes who swear by it.

You can find all kinds of arguments against acupuncture on the same websites that discount homeopathy. Have a field day. Meanwhile other people will be getting acupuncture (or homeopathy) and benefitting from it, or getting their fractured wrists healed by tai chi masters or using methods that work even when they are dismissed by "real studies from legitimate medical institutions."

It's funny, because the guy at my work who is always putting studies in my box about how acupuncture doesn't work could probably really benefit from it for some of his health problems, but some people would rather be "right" than be "healthy." Yes, it's a personal choice.

[Tom Yum]

If you spend some time on Medline you can find a lot of "proof" that acupuncture doesn't work that is more convincing than your arguments (and You can find all kinds of arguments against acupuncture on the same websites that discount homeopathy. Have a field day. Meanwhile other people will be getting acupuncture (or homeopathy) and benefitting from it, or getting their fractured wrists healed by tai chi masters or using methods that work even when they are dismissed by "real studies from legitimate medical institutions.".

I pulled up my own research to support my arguments for it. To be honest, you're not the only person to convince me of accupuncture's benefits. I'm kinda familar with that stuff...

If you want to convince others against it, do your own homework

It's funny, because the guy at my work who is always putting studies in my box about how acupuncture doesn't work could probably really benefit from it for some of his health problems, but some people would rather be "right" than be "healthy." Yes, it's a personal choice.

So what you're trying to prove is Tree knows best....














....BWAHAhAhahAHhahahaHAHAHAHAHAHH !

[treelizard]

No flip-flop views here, Tree.

Pretty interesting that you want me to start a thread on Chinese herbs when you could do your own research or go to modern medicine then. Hmmmm....

As far as ginseng, yes there is evidence that it can reduce fatigue, increase endurance and improve performance but it can mask the symptoms of burnout while deeper destruction from lifestyle issues continues unabated. The best "cure" for burnout is rest, nutrition, well digested food and looking at things like food intolerances, insulin resistance, etc. Any acupuncturist worth their salt (I thought you said you didn't know about Chinese herbs...) would look at the whole person when determining which herbs they should take or what other changes they need to make, instead of just recommending an herb based on an article.

If you're going to use a scientific approach, I'd expect you to analyze these articles on rats you find to determine whether the studies are based on humans, account for confounding factors, use appropriate form, dosage and duration, measure real results instead of indicators, are interpreted properly, fit in context of the larger body of research, do not have deliberate bias, have significant results, etc. etc. etc.

Or you could just go with what "many athletes sware by." Doesn't matter to me.

[treelizard]

I pulled up my own research to support my arguments for it. To be honest, you're not the only person to convince me of accupuncture's benefits. I'm kinda familar with that stuff...

Yeah, I kinda got suspicious when you said "You've sold me on acupuncture, Tree"--thanks for confirming my suspicions.

If you want to convince others against it, do your own homework

I could just hand them articles that my coworker has given me, but I wouldn't want to convince others against something that works.

So what you're trying to prove is Tree knows best....

Not trying to prove anything, just find it slightly amusing but mostly kind of sad that people would rather be "right" and unhealthy.

[Tom Yum]

Pretty interesting that you want me to start a thread on Chinese herbs when you could do your own research or go to modern medicine then. Hmmmm.....

It makes perfect sense to me. You're likely a subject expert. Still if what you say doesn't jive with modern medicine, seems dangerous and has little to no real research backing it, you might want to make a disclaimer.

As far as ginseng, yes there is evidence that it can reduce fatigue, increase endurance and improve performance but it can mask the symptoms of burnout while deeper destruction from lifestyle issues continues unabated. The best "cure" for burnout is rest, nutrition, well digested food and looking at things like food intolerances, insulin resistance, etc. Any acupuncturist worth their salt (I thought you said you didn't know about Chinese herbs...) would look at the whole person when determining which herbs they should take or what other changes they need to make, instead of just recommending an herb based on an article.

This is the kind of stuff you should be posting on your Chinese meds thread.

[treelizard]

I'm far from a subject expert. And I'm not starting a Chinese med thread.

[Tom Yum]

Not trying to prove anything, just find it slightly amusing but mostly kind of sad that people would rather be "right" and unhealthy.

That comes off as a little self-righteous and elitist.

[treelizard]

So what you're trying to prove is Tree knows best........BWAHAhAhahAHhahahaHAHAHAHAHAHH !

It makes perfect sense to me. You're likely a subject expert.

No flip-flop views here, Tree.

Interesting!