Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[Thai Bri]

Was it? Or is that something else you read in a book.

For the record I've been a cop in the UK for 20 years, and may well have had one or two little skirmishes in that time....... I have also "been there and done that" with Wing Chun. It certainly is not the art for me, and I haven't seen any evidence of it's effectiveness neither.

Open mind? I was open minded enough to walk into Wing Chun in 1983. Does that count? The fact I rejected it does not mean my mind is not open.

[bcbernam777]

It certainly is mate.

So, he's proficient, beaten other stylists and knows all the secret stuff about mythical groundfighting. And he challenges people who live on the other side of the planet.

What a guy. What a WANKER!

Pull your head in mate, it was a genuine invitation to come and see a demonstration of Wing Chun, an invitation to which I have made other times to other people who have taken up, I am always happy to share my knowledge with others who are genuine about learning an art or having their questions answered. As for challenging people on the other side of thesplanet, what an idiot you are, first of it wasn't a challenge and secoindly, I said "IF" you are in Australia, Sydney because I have n o Idea where you are from because you have no location in you public profile. And if are the kind of person "keyboard warrior" who would end up slanging over the net, then it is a cse of the kettle calling the stove black. You have a big mouth, and in my experiance, when living on the streets, we never worried about the big mounths, because they never had the balls to carry through with anything, its was the guys who kept to themselves we worried about.

[Thai Bri]

It certainly is mate.

So, he's proficient, beaten other stylists and knows all the secret stuff about mythical groundfighting. And he challenges people who live on the other side of the planet.

What a guy. What a WANKER!

[jubaji]

If you are located in Australia, i.e. Sydney, I will be happy to give you a demonstration of real Wing Chun.

LOL

I knew this was coming!

Its like people are reading from a script or something. Nearly the same dialog each time.

[bcbernam777]

Interesting stuff.

1. I did not imply that anyone in WC said it could be learned to a combat profficient level quickly. In fact the opposite is true. They go all starry eyed at how wonderful the system must be because it takes so long to learn. It is merely my view that this is false logic, and that the better a system is, the quicker it will be to learn to a level of combat profficiency.!

As you will see by my contradictory post i have achieved a level of combat proficiency after one year. My post was not about learning the system, but mastering the system, I have gone up against several different styles and have had success in each encounter, yes I am proficient, but have I mastered it? No. And if you want to sit there and tell me that an art is good because it can be quickly learnt, well that is not right either, there are many JKD players who are proficient, but proficient will only take you so far.

2. Whoops! We seem to be contradicting ourself now! Suddenly 1 poxy year of training is enough to overcome a guy who has 6 years? Because he has the wrong "structure" of course....... I studied under the same lineage as you by the way. You know the one. It's the one where you have so much weight on the back leg that you have to hop around like a one legged chicken to get anywhere.!

You used the word poxy, not me, and I would be most interested to know who your teacher was. I have been trained one on one not in a classroom situation, so my one year of training, is probaly worth at least 2-3 years of someone who has learnt in a classroom situation, and in terms of the amount of weight you have on the back leg, for a start we do not have back leg as we implement the principle of "Chil Yeung", now when you can work out what that means then you may be seen as someone who actually understands Wing chun. And the context of the second point is to show that not all Wing Chun is equal, as simple as that, just as not all escrima is equal, just as not all BJJ is equal.

3. Learning one form may, or may not, be "enough." Personally I think that learning something else gives you more chance of learning enough to defend yourself. But we all have our own opinions.!

And when you do the other forms you are learning "something else", the ridiculous nature of your propositions is that you are judging a complete system after having done one form, and probably in a not so good Wing Chun school. It is akin to learning the letters of the alphabet but never learning the grammatical rules to construct a sentance and then coming to the conclusion that the english language is a pile of crap.

4. So, Wing Chun has a ground game. Isn't it funny that this only emerged after the initial UFCs, where the Gracies beat the cack out of everyone with their own ground game. Oh yes, Wing Chun had it all along but, mysteriously, chose not to display it. They even fail to display it to MMA andd BJJ grapplers nowadays. It is from the Bui Jee form. Of course it is. The Wing Chun "ground game" is poke 'em in the eyes and hope for the best. One problem though. A reasonable grappler won't let you. He'll have your arms wrapped so far up yer jacksie that the only eyes you'll poke are your own, from the inside - !

So you say, if this is what you think the ground game is "The Wing Chun "ground game" is poke 'em in the eyes and hope for the best" then you have shown your own ignorance in the depth of understanding of Wing chun, and do not understand the system

No offence mate. You stick with WC if that is what you wish to do. Good luck to ya!

By the sarcastic and generally churlish attitude in the post, you seem to me to be the type of poster who asks questions with the answers already typed up. If you wish to remain close minded and not actually sit down and think, "you know maybe this guy has a point" then good luck to you, because you are definitly going to need it. If you are located in Australia, i.e. Sydney, I will be happy to give you a demonstration of real Wing Chun.

[Thai Bri]

Interesting stuff.

1. I did not imply that anyone in WC said it could be learned to a combat profficient level quickly. In fact the opposite is true. They go all starry eyed at how wonderful the system must be because it takes so long to learn. It is merely my view that this is false logic, and that the better a system is, the quicker it will be to learn to a level of combat profficiency.

2. Whoops! We seem to be contradicting ourself now! Suddenly 1 poxy year of training is enough to overcome a guy who has 6 years? Because he has the wrong "structure" of course....... I studied under the same lineage as you by the way. You know the one. It's the one where you have so much weight on the back leg that you have to hop around like a one legged chicken to get anywhere.

3. Learning one form may, or may not, be "enough." Personally I think that learning something else gives you more chance of learning enough to defend yourself. But we all have our own opinions.

4. So, Wing Chun has a ground game. Isn't it funny that this only emerged after the initial UFCs, where the Gracies beat the cack out of everyone with their own ground game. Oh yes, Wing Chun had it all along but, mysteriously, chose not to display it. They even fail to display it to MMA andd BJJ grapplers nowadays. It is from the Bui Jee form. Of course it is. The Wing Chun "ground game" is poke 'em in the eyes and hope for the best. One problem though. A reasonable grappler won't let you. He'll have your arms wrapped so far up yer jacksie that the only eyes you'll poke are your own, from the inside -

No offence mate. You stick with WC if that is what you wish to do. Good luck to ya!

[bcbernam777]

This is my first post on this forum, and I would like to add something to this disscussion late as it may be.

I study Wing Chun under my Sifu who was a former student of Yip Man, I have been studying under him for almost 2 years now. There are several point I wish to raise here.

1. The time misconception: There seems to be a misconception that Wing Chun can be mastered in three easy steps and takes very little time to "master". This view has, as far as I am aware, never been put forward by any legitimate student of Sigung's (Yip Man). There is a saying (or kuen kuit) basically that the techniques are easy to learn but hard to master. There are only 6 forms in Wing Chun, and anyone could be taught these forms in only a matter of days, all of the forms could feasibly (if ones retentive memory is sufficcient) be taught the forms in as little as a month. These 6 forms, when compared with the multitude of forms in other CMA's mean that this system could be learnt quickly, but to fully understand the system, that is a lifetime event, and to learn them properly, to lead you to a place of sufficient understanding where you can take the system for your own will take a decent practicioner between 10-12 years. Even then constant practice is needed to further understand and absorb the system. As Sifu once told me, never call yourself Sifu, only after 10 years can you call yourself Sifu.

2. The structural misconception: Part of the problem sith much Wing Chun being taught, is that it makes the use of the wrong structual biomechanics. This problem was highlighted to me after I had studied with Sifu for a year, and had the oportunity to "touch hands" with a student of 2 different schools of Wing Chun who had studied for 6 years. This gentleman that I trained with, despite his 6 years of training, had no ability when pushed into a semi sparring situation with myself, and he was at a loss to understand why, the answer was simple he was utilising the wrong structure, and was working with the wrong energy, this was something that I showed him, and he told me that of all the places that he had visited, that my Wing chun was the best (of course it was Sifus wing Chun not mine which I pointed out to him), this is because Sifu is stringet on key elements of the system that many others dont understand, and the reason they dont understand it is because they rush past the Sui Lum Tao thinking that it is boring and a waste of time. Even now after almost 2 full years of concentrating on the Sui Lum Tao i am only now beginning to see its potential, it is a foundation, but it is a strong foundation, and it is partly (whencombined with the three other forms) the engine behind the system. When this is learnt properly it lays the foundation for a STRONG structure, meaning that punches indeed become strong. When I first started studying with Sifu, one of his former students that he taught for 18 years punched me in the chest during chi sau, I can say as a martial artist with at least 15 years behind me in several different martial arts, that punch was the most penetrating destructive punch that I have ever felt, when I was punched in my chest it felt like it had gone straight through my chest and he had punched my heart, Iwill never forget that punch as long as I live, that is power, and that is why I study under sifu.

3. Learning one form: In and of itself is not enough, there are 6 forms in Wing Chun for a reason, these forms hold within them the keys and the seeds of the system that will only be properly unlocked when three key elements are combined A) A dedicated Student B) A teacher who not only can teach but can also display the very things that they are teaching C) A properly developed curriculum that contains all of the elements of true Wing Chun, not just partial elements. The reality is that the SLT as good as it is is still only a beginning, not an end, the form that really teaches you fighting is the Chum Kui, the SLT develops the tools, but it is the CK that teaches you how to use those tools that you have developed, these are further developed agin in Bui Jee (Bill Gee). Then these tools are further refined through the use of the wooden dummy, and find a sharper focus in the weapons. In this way the progression is as such, Energy, Structure, concept and then technique, being the last consideration.

4. Wing Chun has no ground game incorrect, there are many concepts that are contained in the System that can be utilised in the event of a ground fighting situation, most of these concepts are contained within the Bui Jee form.

[Thai Bri]

What the fook is a "true person of the arts?" Are you one of those idiots who goes all mystical and implies you have some Monk like Buddhist knowledge, merely because you learn a vaguely oriental fighting art?

PS - The word you are looking for is "involves", not "envolves."

Cheers -

[phenom]

thai bri you seem to be quite clued on at times but you spoil it with childish remarks a true person of the arts never envolves himself in that type of conduct you post like you are a man of the martial world but you ruin yourself by kiddy name calling cmon mate.From your friend in australia cheers

[Thai Bri]

Theres less for me to pick up on now, coz we do seem to broadly agree.

When you think about it, in what way is WC quicker? It certainly looks quick, and the simultaneous blcok/counter "should" be quicker. But how many of 'em flick out damaging jabs anywhere near as quickly as a good middleweight boxer? WC is quicker on paper. But, especially with the poor footwork of the lineage you study (other WC has a more even distribution of weight) you quick punches won't be hitting any targets.

Your point re conditioned forearms fo WC is just as important as flexibility for TKD etc. is a circular argument. Its like saying "Doing a Handstand is just as important for Hand-Stand Do". Maybe it is - BUT WHO SAYS IT IS RELEVANT FOR REAL FIGHTING?

I know it doesnt take a lot of force to knock someone out. If you get the targeting right, and they are not expecting it, it takes surprisingly little. But you gotta be real good with deception and pre emption to get that. In the middle of a rumble? You'll get neither.

If WC depends on cross training, then WC is not as effective as people make it out to be. There is nothing wrong with cross training. It is the way to go. AS LONG AS PEOPLE STOP CREDITTING THEIR CHOSEN ART FOR THEIR PROWESS. Who remembers Kimo when he nearly killed Royce Gracie in UFC3? He appeared to be a steroided up wrestler on Jesus Juice. But he gave his chosen art as TKD. Nonsense.

I will never respect WC? Maybe, maybe not. But take a look through the thread at the guys who've suypported it (you excepted). What a bunch of knobs.

Anyway, no harm done. This is my message for all you Aussies out there -

"Haw Haw Haw Ya Wankers!" -

[Balor]

Again, I can't deny that you make some very relevant points, and this is from someone who generally dislikes people who concern themselves too much with 'waves that rock the boat.' The comments you've made in this post are largely constructive and thus they interest me, other comments of yours that I have read in the past I would put in the hacking basket.

Yup, whilst I might not be pencil necked I am indeed a white collar worker who spends way too much time in front of a computer, having intermittently read on the forums for a while, but never posting until now. Don't get me wrong, there's a wanker in us all and I believe yours manifests itself quite nicely. Your 'haw haw haw' trademark is well known in a couple of Aus MA schools now. Take that as you will.

Again I'll address some of your points as you've laid them out, taking care not to let this degenerate too much.

The issue of 111 lessons still making me feel like a novice is a part personal thing, but also a point of concern. Being a novice does not necessarily entail helpless incompetance in the face of a real life physical threat. From what I have seen, and as I learn it, WC is not an easy art to pick up, learn and apply - and yes, this does concern me. I know that others disagree with me here.

Re: art having too much 'art'. Agreed. A few senior members in my academy have commented on the way in which they spend time selecting what works for them from WC (and other arts) and concentrate on those techs. Once they've stripped that down, its sometimes surprising at how little they pick for their preferred arsenal. I guess that's a leaf from the Geoff Thompson book '3 second fighter'.

The accurate description of the 120kg weight of a larger opponent was a point made re: the extra power of a 'trad boxing punch' vs a 'trad wc punch' with regards to the power advantage of the former and the speed advantage of the latter (all things being equal). RE: weight and strength - I agree, that if used properly, weight and strength it will usually be an advantage regardless of combatitive style. This can apply to styles that in some ways 'do not rely on strength' such as WC and BJJ.

Conditioned arms are essential for a WC practioner (just as flexibility is for TKD or abs for a kickboxer or shins for a Kyokushin knock down specialist) - not to sustain hits from an opponent, but to be able to use them effectively to execute the techs. There is a lot of emphasis on closing the gap and using the arms to both deflect and strike. Thus my point that that wooden man is a valuable aid in this aspect of the art.

Regarding bare knuckle vs a boxer: hand vs hands, I'd be wary! And for good reason as you have pointed out. Boxers are dedicated hands specialists as I too discovered when I trained boxing. It was a humbling lesson that I learnt when I made the transition from TKD to boxing / kickboxing. Of interest to me was the fact that early Western boxers used WC style straight punches (well not quite but similar). I gather they have diverted from this partly due to the introduction of gloves and the subsequent need to throw more weight behind the strikes. There could also be arguments about how the modern boxing style punching links combinations in a manner that can be more fluid than that of say, WC. Interestingly enough, without gloves it does not necessarily take a lot of force to knock someone out, blind or stun someone if the strike is accurate. There is of course also the other extreme where I have heard of WC novices pattering away with quick but gutless straight punches, and waking up in our local hospital.

You've said that WC seems to work best against compliant WC practitioners. I don't quite agree (though 6 months ago I would have agreed), however I do have concerns that some WC classes do not place enough emphasis on cross training - some also don't believe in sparring and so lend an overly weighted focus to the air drills that you mentioned in your initial post.

There is a lot of emphasis placed on the success of various MA's in the public sphere. And WC certainly does not have a strong profile there. One of the problems is that therefore many of the real life success stories surrounding WC are suspect as you have to take someone's word for it. Having seen it work first hand I'm not in that basket, but until things change its going to be an ongoing perception for many people.

I think one danger of this sort of posting is this: you will probably never respect WC whereas I have come to respect it, so my posts are primarily geared at offfering a counter view of some of your statements in the hope that others on this forum can see another opinion. Me trying to convince you of any virtues of WC is pretty well pointless.

[Thai Bri]

Its strange that you "and many others you know" have written me off as a wanker. Especially since its only your first post. What happens? Do you and your little pencil necked pals sit around the computer reading, but never daring to post?

Its also strange to see just how much you actually agree with me. So why the "wanker" comment? Anyway, lets take some of the things you disagree with and have a look.

If 111 lessons makes you a novice in a fighting art, then it ain't a good fighting art. I can (and have) taken total beginners and given them useable, real skills in 1 lesson. I may have mentioned that I learned more about REAL fighting by watching a video called "The Shredder" by Richard Dimitri than I did in my whole year of WC training. Sounds ridiculous, but t'is true.

You said that those who don't understand "forms" should consider getting a little more primal. I totally agree with you. Fighting is primal. One of the main problems with the martial arts is this - they've got too much "art" and not enough "martial." Thats why so many trainees (even black belts etc.) get the shit kicked out of them by thugs. Because fighting is primal, and should be trained that way. But we have this illogical presumption that, mysteriously, the better an art is, the longer it takes to learn. Bollox. But it is a great way to keep students paying for years on end.

Your example of the inclusion of rules to the disadvantage of WC was ridiculous. It wasn't that the rules inhibited things...it was because they ALLOWED something, i.e. the kicks to the legs. You shot yourself in the foot. That must be pretty painful after getting your legs kicked to smithereens!

So, some guy hit you with speed and power did he? Thats great! Its fantastic that this art, designed by a woman to allow smaller people to defeat bigger ones, was so effective for him. But wait.... he was 120 kilos. THAT'S 264 LBS! Hardly proving anything about Wing Chun, does it?

Now, you at 50. Could you kickbox? I don't know. I think its irrelevant. I don't recommend kickboxing for real fighting. But I get your point. When people recommend "softer" styles for older people they, quite rightly, realise that the older ones can perform these techniques more easily. BUT YOU STILL MAKE AN INCORRECT ASSUMPTION. You assume that these techniques will work. If they were so good that even an older person could use them successfully...then a younger person would be successful also! But where is the evidence? Theres certainly none in low rules MMA fights.

WC dummy conditioning the arms? What the fook for? Like you say, a real fight can last for seconds. What use are conditioned arms? You should be taking him down, not impressing him with forearm toughness. Conditioned arms are irrelevant, and one of the many distractions that so called martial arts have in respect to real fighting. And conditioning the hands? Punch if you want to. In Wing Chun your hands are pretty safe - BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HIT HARD! For anyone else? Use stronger parts of the body than knuckles.

Low kicks? I have no argument there.

Three minute rounds? I too only train for the burst of an explosive real fight. If you don't take someone out with a pre emptive shot, though, it may well last more than 10 seconds mate. Keep your anaerobic conditioning up to 2-3 minutes, or suffer the consequencies.

You depend on "structure", but its hard to do when your scared? Too right. Look what those two great WC Masters did when they fought for real. They rolled around like girlies. They'd put in all those years of training that you hope will give you this "structure". Doesn''t their failure tell you anything?

And you've also fallen into the trap of the "its not just about fighting" argument. Thats the logic of a guy not totally sure that his art is effective, but he's still at the stage where he bravely tells himself that it is - as long as he devotes (i.e. wastes) years of training to it.

You seem like a reasonable and intelligent guy. Go out and test your skills a little more with other styles. I know you've done a little. Why not go bare knuckle, but light contact, with a boxer? See how often you even hit him, compared with how often he hits you. Then both strike various impact devices and see who you honestly think would have had most effect.

All the so called advantages you speak of are done by Wing Chun people on compliant Wing Chun people in Wing Chun classes.

By the way, when I'm play fighting with my kids? Those WC blocks, parries and simultaneous strikes etc. are still there. Its a great game. But when some shite head is trying to fill my face in for real they don't come to mind. Structure or not, they just don't cut the custard under real ferocity.

Its of little concern to me what you train. My own journey has (and still is) long and hard. If someone posts Wing Chun threads, I'll continue to comment. That isn't "hacking" Wing Chun. That is discussing a martial art on a martial arts discussion forum.

But I think I am fair in saying that it is you who have the closed mind. I've kept mine open, and any negative comments are merely observations based on experience.

[phenom]

thanks for reply here is my email redboysorrel@hotmail.com could you email me so i can use your email to contact you directly instead of threw the forum thanks

[Balor]

Hi Phenom, I'm located in Canberra and train under Sifu Alan Graham (Canberra Wing Chun Academy). Happy to chat anytime re: techs & applications. There is a vast amount of knowledge on this forum, but I have noticed a disturbing amount of generalising and misconceptions about WC (WC being quite a diverse style in itself with a lot of different and evolving streams).

Every style has its strengths and weaknesses and I think its important that practitioners lend equal focus to the 'weaknesses' of themselves and their chosen martial arts styles as they do the 'strengths'.

Cheers

[phenom]

grat post mate just curious to know were in australia you are im in melb i myself am a wing chun practitioner and would love to chat about tehniques and applications great outlook towards other opinions your sifu would be proud disihing