Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[Red Rum]

You know something? With YouTube ANYONE can find convincing evidence of Western Boxing, MMA, Judo etc. being used against a resisting opponent.

But Wing Chun? Nah. Lots of set pieces (usually pretty ridiculous ones). And the occasional hilarious ones of th WC guy beaten to a pulp.

But the only "Wing Chiun" shows people with boxing guards doing MMA kicks and Judo grappling.

This is a biiiiig thread. There's plenty of thought out posts on the deficiencies in Wing Chun, and plenty of ridiculous claims and nonsense from pro Wing Chun guys.

I think an impartial observer could figure it all out and come up with a reasonable idea of whether or not to join a Wing Chun club.

I have never seen a clip on Youtube or otherwise of a streetfight where a boxer has fought a resisting opponent

If you are talking about cagefights or boxing rings etc, this has been covered to death. It is easy to glove up and fight 'resisting' opponents. But where are the videos of the gloves off fighting each other?
Nowhere. Reason - 14oz gloves offer a lot of cover and are easy to spar with. Take them off and boxers guards become very open (which is why many UFC fighters do not hold a boxers guard)

If you find anyone willing to get into a no holds barred fight with me, I would be glad to video it and show wing chun vs a resisting opponent.

The trouble with you Thai Bri is that you think everything you see in wing chun clips is non-wing chun. I have seen TKD guys doing a chop - I wouldn't suggest to them that it is actually a wing chun or Judo move.

Or if a kickboxer does a sweeping kick - I wouldn't suggest to them that it is in fact a karate move

I can understand your points if you saw a wing chun guy use BJJ and then claim that it was strictly wing chun

That is why Kevin Chan makes distinctions when he teaches.

[Thai Bri]

You know something? With YouTube ANYONE can find convincing evidence of Western Boxing, MMA, Judo etc. being used against a resisting opponent.

But Wing Chun? Nah. Lots of set pieces (usually pretty ridiculous ones). And the occasional hilarious ones of th WC guy beaten to a pulp.

But the only "Wing Chiun" shows people with boxing guards doing MMA kicks and Judo grappling.

This is a biiiiig thread. There's plenty of thought out posts on the deficiencies in Wing Chun, and plenty of ridiculous claims and nonsense from pro Wing Chun guys.

I think an impartial observer could figure it all out and come up with a reasonable idea of whether or not to join a Wing Chun club.

[tjwingchun]

Thats the most non sensical post on Defend.Net.

Says the Master of non sensical posts

[Thai Bri]

Thats the most non sensical post on Defend.Net.

[tjwingchun]

Have you thought of looking at other wing chun schools Thai Bri?

I doubt whether Thai Bri would visit any Wing Chun school that would make him question his prejudice and personal hatred of the system based on his training experience that goes back to 20+ years ago. He is happier being bitter and twisted.

[Red Rum]

Can you be a little more argumentative please? And a little less mature?

I'm not used to WC people with a brain (excluding Red Rum, though he is an MMAer without knowing it......).

Ahhh man - I'm an MMAer? It's like Memento all over again lol

I see your point about the five years thing. I think a lot of it is based on muscle memory. In Kamon, when we drill in punches, a student will obviously get better and hit harder as he does more and more. But because of the syllabus, most students won't do things like chi sao until they have trained for two years at least (I know other schools differ)

In the CKD I do at the moment, we train pretty much all the moves and kicks at once. So if you trained every day, you would do the syllabus very quickly. Some of the CKD instuctors have only trained for three years. They are still very good, because that is the art they do. In wing chun I think most drills, forms etc need to be stretched out longer. ie you could teach a child the movements of the forms, but to actually get the energy and understand the movements takes longer.

Saying that, a lot of Kamon guys get good after around a year of training.
Yet I have heard many wing chun schools prefer to train students for a longer time and drill them in.

I guess the danger is that if you don't know anything about martial arts and join as a newbie, you could be doing the wrong art for five years before you realise that you're not getting anywhere. Then you have wasted all that time!

Have you thought of looking at other wing chun schools Thai Bri?

Maybe Alan Orr's as it is fairly close to you

[Thai Bri]

Can you be a little more argumentative please? And a little less mature?

I'm not used to WC people with a brain (excluding Red Rum, though he is an MMAer without knowing it......).

[UKSifu]

Another interesting point.

I guess progress is all about how you structure learning. Many traditional clubs in Wing Chun work around first form for beginners. e.g. vertical fist punching and arm positions within the box (very basic centreline theory). In my view this actually slows progress as it does not teach structure and Martial Arts basics (all of which are in the Wing Chun System).

It is like I said in a previous posting, Wing Chun has it's specialism (close fighting from contact). Many of the techniques taught to beginners are to do with the specialism but there is nothing to hang them on, a bit like playing football before you learn to walk and run.

When I began teaching Wing Chun I soon noticed that when I taught in this way progress was much slower that when I gave a student a good grounding in Martial Arts basics first. The students also stuck around much longer and were then able to work on the more specialised areas with greater success.

I agree that there must be some repetition in training but that shouldn't make it boring, a student should be constantly learning too. There is no reason why progress shouldn't be in line with any other Martial Art and if trained in the correct way, with the same intensity and conditioning be just as earth shattering. I am a realist though and accept that many Wing Chun coaches don't see it the same way as I do.

[Thai Bri]

If you live that long.

Just about every able bodied person can fight to a degree. Their abilities should get better from lesson 1. It's the same with, say, soccer. You don't need 5 years before you can be fantastically better.

Boxing? Same as. Judo? Same as, etc. etc.

But Wing Chun? Oh no! You need to stick around for five years to get something of value from it. Even that wouldn't be so bad if the final product really was earth shattering. But, if it is, the evidence is pretty scarce.

Or do I have to look for that for 5 years also?

[Red Rum]

You have to remember that people get bored with stancework and forms and standing in lines drilling punches which is fair enough. Those are usually people who want a quick fix. Like my training partners in TKD - they have no power or speed but believe that they are good, because they do a couple of drills and move on.

In wing chun, its repetition repetition and repetition and a lot of fighter get bored

That is fair enough, but I get annoyed when people say that wing chun is useless - not realising that if you stick at it for around five years you will take much away with you.

[Thai Bri]

In response to Thai Bri's initial statement of spending one year in wingchun and not getting the same out of it as one year of boxing, I can understand the reasons:

1. wingchun has more strikes, is more intricate in its fighting methods (sensitivity) requires further development of fine motor skills and therefore takes longer to use and apply.

2. wingchun has kicks.

3. wingchun is still taught as a martial art, not as a combat sport. Seems like when its taught as self-defense or as a combat sport (eg. Alan Orr) it probably takes less time?

I think you missed the point. Yes, it does have more strikes (and kicks!). But more is not better. As for being "taught as a martial art?" What do you mean? That martial art was supposed to teach me to fight! It didn't.

[UKSifu]

Thanks for the kind comments.

[Tom Yum]

In response to Thai Bri's initial statement of spending one year in wingchun and not getting the same out of it as one year of boxing, I can understand the reasons:

1. wingchun has more strikes, is more intricate in its fighting methods (sensitivity) requires further development of fine motor skills and therefore takes longer to use and apply.

2. wingchun has kicks.

3. wingchun is still taught as a martial art, not as a combat sport. Seems like when its taught as self-defense or as a combat sport (eg. Alan Orr) it probably takes less time?

[Red Rum]

Yep - you do seem friendly and egoless.

A bit above some of the ultra defensive pro Wing Chun shite that got posted earlier in the thread!

Kevin Chan speaks very highly of Dave Blackley so in my book he's cool

I don't know why people get so defensive about wing chun on here. If someone had a criticism of Kamon and it was valid, I'd take it on board.

Wing chun misses a lot of things - groundwork, long distance movements etc, so it is ignorant to say that wing chun is superior to anything. It is definately not. I have found that it gives a good base, a good short range power that develops in a short space of time, sensitivity and the ability to mould round opponents. For those who have done wing chun, they have just started off in their martial arts career. The next part is understanding how arts such as BJJ, MT, boxing etc tie in.

[Thai Bri]

Yep - you do seem friendly and egoless.

A bit above some of the ultra defensive pro Wing Chun shite that got posted earlier in the thread!