Wing Chun - an overview of its training methods and effectiveness.

[UKSifu]

Thai Bri, you made some interesting points about Wing Chun. I have to conceed that Wing Chun training and it's public face have changed a great deal over the years. At one time it was considered an excellent fighting style and was extremely popular. Perhaps its popularity was its undoing; the more popular a style becomes the more people jump on the band wagon and the weaker it becomes.

Many of the points you made about the way that your Wing Chun training was approached sadly shows a lack of understanding by your coach. I wont go into everything but it might be helpful to cover a few of your points:

Structure - you mentioned that all the weight was on the back leg and the chin is in the air etc. The W.C. structure should not be like this at all, the weight on the back leg should not resemble a Karate Cat Stance. Sometimes the weightis transfered to the back leg when opponents are fairly square to each other (a bit like sitting into a hard right hander). The head should only be raised when the W.C. practitioner has contacted the arms of the opponent and is in control (many of the so called blocks and movements should only be used once contact is established). Unfortunately most W.C. guys seem to have this riduculous habit of sticking their chins in the air and being bolt upright in open play i.e fighting before earning the right to a dominant position. Wing chun should look a lot like boxing (old bare knuckle) when not in contact.

Chi Sau - Wing Chun is generally an art that fights in close but not grappling close. Again it is often interpreted as getting into the ideal range and staying their whilst a fight is ended. This is why some ponce around at arms length when they should be exploding in very close (clinch range) establishing a dominant position and then hurting their opponents out of the clinch. If this is done well it is more difficult for the opponent to escape to range or establish under hooks etc for take downs. Chi Sau should reflect this aim but it has become too civilised (not at my club I might add) certain etiquetes seem more important and some coaches restrict the game so the can't lose face.

Punching - the vetical fist is only one punch (the inner gate) there are lots more. Again resembling jabs, crosses, hooks, upercuts etc.

Forms - I'm not a fan of forms either but W.C. forms aren't a collection of moves, they show structures and possibilities any weapon at the end of a movement regardless of how small e.g. the opening of fist form (raising hands) imagine one rising to the groin for a gouge. A fist at the end of a thrusting finger (jab), Lan Sau (possibly a choke, or hook structure). Having said that I think that too much emphasis is placed on them.

It sounds as if you were taught a very 2 dimensional view of W.C. even the thrusting fingers would mostly be used as a way to cross from being inside an opponents arms to outside rather than just a finger strike. The training seems very weak too, did you spar, any full contact, train against other styles etc? If not then regardless of your Martial Art it will be weak, a bit like learning to swim without going in the water.

Incidently I have similar background to you former Police Officer, body guard loads of Martial Arts, Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Karate etc but I really rate Wing Chun. As a street art I've relied on it more than anything else and its served me well. It's also not a style that relies on conditioning as much as some others (I also do a lot of BJJ which I really love but conditioning and age is more of a factor, I'd still recomend it though!).

Hope these comments have been useful.

[Thai Bri]

Actually, i don't consider my last post a contribution; more a statement of exasperation!

You are entitled to your opinion that Wing Chun is ineffectual, but you really have not got the basic understanding to give an over view of an entire system based on a years training at an obviously inferior school run by an instructor with no understanding of how the principles apply or how to comunicate them to a student. Actually, i'm being charitable to you in saying that. It may well be that the school and instructor were just fine and that it was yourself that were lacking in understanding and talant as a student; being completely devoid of the necessary attitude required to learn effectively.

So, now that i have contributed to your pointless WOMBAT of a thread i refuse to be drawn any further on the issue.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

Small Thought. Small Brain.

[Red Rum]

Wing chun like any art has many flaws.

Boxing has no kicks/knees but is still incredibly good.

BJJ has no strikes but is still incredibly good.

Karate has no close range stuff but is still incredibly good.

Wing chun is just the same. What you do with it is up to you.
A lot of schools are too stuck in tradition and cannot see true application of wing chun. Just like some boxing styles get destroyed when they go up against other boxers.

I went with one wing chun guy and made him cry when he realised that he had major flaws in his training (seriously he cried!!)

Federations like Alan Orr, Kamon, James Sinclair, (and I have been told there are others in America), train people to hit hard and to use their sensitivity for real situations. I know weedy people who can't fight at all using wing chun and I know rock hard scary geezers who can use their wing chun to devastating effect

[jubaji]

You are entitled to your opinion that Wing Chun is ineffectual

Whew! Thank goodness that's all cleared up!

[SmallThought]

Actually, i don't consider my last post a contribution; more a statement of exasperation!

You are entitled to your opinion that Wing Chun is ineffectual, but you really have not got the basic understanding to give an over view of an entire system based on a years training at an obviously inferior school run by an instructor with no understanding of how the principles apply or how to comunicate them to a student. Actually, i'm being charitable to you in saying that. It may well be that the school and instructor were just fine and that it was yourself that were lacking in understanding and talant as a student; being completely devoid of the necessary attitude required to learn effectively.

So, now that i have contributed to your pointless WOMBAT of a thread i refuse to be drawn any further on the issue.

Good luck with your training.
Peace out.

[Thai Bri]

So you decided to contribute.

Doh!

[SmallThought]

Disappointed once again.....

It's so typical to see yet another ill informed discussion on a style of which most people seem to have very little understanding. At first i wanted to join this discussion, but on further reading i have decided it is a a complete WOMBAT (waste of mega bites and time).

[marcus_p]

I trained WC for approximately 1 year. I put my heart and soul into it and rarely missed a day. Even when there was no lesson I spent my time refining what I had been taught.

<snip...>

OK, I know I've been a bit unkind in other threads. But so what? This is my view for all to see. And all this "you only spent a year at it" is really weak. I am an experienced student of fighting arts, and an experienced fighter. One year should be plenty time to learn to apply a GOOD fighting art. Especially the extent of training I undertook. But I couldn't apply it.

From WC I took some of the parrying movements and the bil jee (which I have now rejected in favour of other ways to throw the fingers). Not alot to show for all that work.

You've described my first few years of WC training. I wish I had only invested a year with that "instructor".

/Marcus

[tjwingchun]

Mines a Big Mac, fries and a chocolate shake!! lol

Spirit? Southern Comfort, but for memory loss 85% black Absinthe hic.

Busy working on a reply from what I have read so far in this epic thread but running out of space on my hard drive only got 150G

[Thai Bri]

Nice one! That's the spirit!

C'Mon guys! Anyone else wanting to join Old MacDonald?

[jubaji]

Hey, theres a donkey calling me a chicken. We could go for the whole farm.

Who else wants to be on the farm? If so, what animal are you and why?

Obviously, I am a pig.

[Sly Dog]

Arnmstrrce

According to your profile, you don't really have anything to say here. Go back to MySpace and talk with the little girls.

[Troll Virus]

WC sucks! MT is the best.

More relevant question.

Which would you rather be, a Chicken or a Donkey?

[Arnmstrrce]

[QUOTE=Arnmstrrce;236249]Wing Chun is real. You are not.[/QUOI

I run right through you.

[Arnmstrrce]

Wing Chun is real. You are not.