Forms

[konghan]

Ok lets try this again;

People normally have 5 senses, sense of touch, smell, taste, sight & hearing right.
People usually have to go out & train for that extra special ability, call it gifted or atheletic skill like a good golfer`s ability to swing the gulf club properly to land that hole in one, or a hockey goalies ability to catch or see the puck or maybe a football quaterbacks` ability to read a defense & quickly release the ball before getting suck or maybe that martial art fighter`s ability to take out 3 attackers or Muhamed Ali`s ability to dodge a punch & read his opponents attacks & so forth & so on.
Now all this extra skills doesnot come from the market they have to be gain by proper training. And once that skill has been achived that athlete become extra ordinary, standing out from ordinary people.
But before reaching that point all of them have to do their respective forms, proper form to swing the gulf club, proper form to throw a punch, proper form to be a good goalie.
But what make MA different from those type of sports is that MA comes with religious, spiritual as well as philisophical aspects. MA people can go on traning even if they reach 75 yrs old but not a football player, not a boxer, not a basketball player & a not a golfer.
Also, base on Bri`s original question which is only about forms I think my answer covers why I do forms.
But as I have said too, to be a complete MA forms, sparring, weapons, working out on the bag developing an iron palm or iron fist or concentrate to have a powerful kick is also part of MA one cannot exist without the other. But most of all for me personally is to have some real street fighting expereince too.

[Thai Bri]

Ok lets try this again;

People normally have 5 senses, sense of touch, smell, taste, sight & hearing right.
People usually have to go out & train for that extra special ability, call it gifted or atheletic skill like a good golfer`s ability to swing the gulf club properly to land that hole in one, or a hockey goalies ability to catch or see the puck or maybe a football quaterbacks` ability to read a defense & quickly release the ball before getting suck or maybe that martial art fighter`s ability to take out 3 attackers or Muhamed Ali`s ability to dodge a punch & read his opponents attacks & so forth & so on.
Now all this extra skills doesnot come from the market they have to be gain by proper training. And once that skill has been achived that athlete become extra ordinary, standing out from ordinary people.
But before reaching that point all of them have to do their respective forms, proper form to swing the gulf club, proper form to throw a punch, proper form to be a good goalie.
But what make MA different from those type of sports is that MA comes with religious, spiritual as well as philisophical aspects. MA people can go on traning even if they reach 75 yrs old but not a football player, not a boxer, not a basketball player & a not a golfer.
Also, base on Bri`s original question which is only about forms I think my answer covers why I do forms.
But as I have said too, to be a complete MA forms, sparring, weapons, working out on the bag developing an iron palm or iron fist or concentrate to have a powerful kick is also part of MA one cannot exist without the other. But most of all for me personally is to have some real street fighting expereince too.

Durrr. But the golfer swings a club against a ball - not a pretend club against thin air in a prearranged pattern. All these activities you mention practice by literally doing the activity. NONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING RESEMBLING A FORM.

And do you know why people can go on training nb the traditional Martial Arts well into their old age? Its the same reason that your Kung Fu class also consists of 6 year olds and mfatt, middle aged mums. BECAUSE THE TRAINING IS SO FUKKIN EASY!

I'm all for adapting the training, and will do so when I'm getting on. But I don't intend training like an old man all my friggin life.

You need to think logically. At the moment you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Guy does forms because he wants to. That's fine. AS LONG AS NO ONE TRIES TO CONVINCE HONEST PEOPLE THAT THERE PRACTICE WILL HELP SAVE THEIR LIFE.

And all this religeous / spiritual / philosophical miubo jumbo. Nonsense. Waving your arms about like Kwai Chang Caine does not make you spiritual. Just like it doesn't give you a sixth sense. You're so stupid it's an illness.

[jingshen]

Hi ...

I'm new to this forum....

I have practised forms for over twenty years. I have competed internationally in modern wushu and have also practised a traditional chinese martial art for 18 years.

The first i practised for a very simple reason. I enjoyed it. The training, which was very hard, was based on perfecting technique. Then performing tose techniques att 100% speed and power. It does help you develop in all the areas required for fighting. Speed , power, timing, mobility, focus and stability.

The second, In traditional chinese martial arts, particuluarly the system i practice the forms are a reference guide for developing techniques. Once the form is learnt and practiced it must be analysed, reasearched and every aspect of it must be understood. Power generation, delivery, rooting of your stance, applications, muscle memory and the understanding of the principles contained within the form.

I grew up boxing in the east end of London, they practice in the same way. They may not perform forms of 100 techniques but they do learn how punches go together to make combinations. This does not differ from form practice. Just becauce your form is practiced in a sequence does not mean you must only see it in that sequence....each part of the form is/ should be able to stand up on it's own merits. Then there is the two man exercises to test your forms, set sparring to learn timing, distance, posture application, then free sparring then if you want go out and test your form in some way.

Without testing then form will not be learnt. Each application you learn within your art must be in your forms...that's what they are there for?

in each of our forms a different principle, theory, way of moving or generating power is taught.....it's up to you to learn it....and test it!

just my thoughts

[Thai Bri]

Enjoying it is reason enough. Fine.

But you are not developing "power generation, delivery, rooting of your stance, applications, muscle memory" in a fighting context. You are developing these qualities in a forms context.... meaning that these qualities do not transfer into a real figt. You are, quite literally, learning how to do it wrong.

Boxers training combinations are very very different than forms. Apart from shadow-boxing (which is spontaneous, unlike forms) they actually hit things. They train their bodies to do it right. If forms were an effective training method, wouldn't the world boxing champions do them?

A masive mistake runs through all of you when talking about forms. You fail to see how actually hitting an object in space is so very different from hitting thin air itself. You also draw comparisons to other physical activities to promote your case yet, and this is blindingly obvious..... THOSE OTHER ACTIVITIES DO NOT DO FORMS!

Yes, let's have an open mind. But not so open that our brains fall out.

[jingshen]

Do you not shadow box?

do you not punch into air?

before you hit a bag, pad, sparring partner firstly you must learn how to punch?

shadow boxing is a form, whether it is free or pre-set you are still practising form?

Boxing does not contains forms because it only has a few techniques which are dictated by the rules fo the competition format?

same goes for Thai, savate, Kickboxing, K-1 or anything else?

Just because i practise forms does not mean the rest of the training that is required to become a successful fighter is neglected. I still do pad work, bag, work, sparring....

however, all my techniques are contained in the forms that i practice....

Apllying the application from the form, translating the techniquesand making them work is the next step from learning forms.

And yes you do learn rooting, posture power generation from forms...when you test your forms....and develop them....

whether form is one movement or 100 you still need to learn the physical form in order to reproduce it it any situation/environment.

I agree that if you were just to perform the forms without understanding them and understanding how to develop these things then it would probably be a waste of time?

but they are the first and last step to understanding and applying your martial art...

[konghan]

Durrr. But the golfer swings a club against a ball - not a pretend club against thin air in a prearranged pattern. All these activities you mention practice by literally doing the activity. NONE OF THEM DO ANYTHING RESEMBLING A FORM.

And do you know why people can go on training nb the traditional Martial Arts well into their old age? Its the same reason that your Kung Fu class also consists of 6 year olds and mfatt, middle aged mums. BECAUSE THE TRAINING IS SO FUKKIN EASY!

I'm all for adapting the training, and will do so when I'm getting on. But I don't intend training like an old man all my friggin life.

You need to think logically. At the moment you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Guy does forms because he wants to. That's fine. AS LONG AS NO ONE TRIES TO CONVINCE HONEST PEOPLE THAT THERE PRACTICE WILL HELP SAVE THEIR LIFE.

And all this religeous / spiritual / philosophical miubo jumbo. Nonsense. Waving your arms about like Kwai Chang Caine does not make you spiritual. Just like it doesn't give you a sixth sense. You're so stupid it's an illness.

That`s what make MA different from fighters, MA people are more respectful, fighters` like you are just that fighters once they reach 45 yesr old thats` it its time to retired & bury their head in the sand. MA people can see more & understand what life is really all about.

Part of a fighters character & attitude is arrogance & cockeness.

And golf people do swing their club in thin air before they start hiiting the ball.

Also you keep missing what I`m saying, FORMS IS JUST ONE PART OF BEING A TRUE & WELL ROUNDED MARTIAL ARTIST COME HAND IN HAND WITH SPARRING, WEAPONS, PUNCHING, KICKING THE BAG & MOST OF AL SOME STREET EXPEREINCE.

Fighters are just like gladiattors, figters like you train with fix patterns becuae they base their style on ring rules. And for you to deny that shadow boxing is not a form to shappened ones technique is total ignorance of what an athlete is.

[konghan]

cancelled

[Thai Bri]

Do you not shadow box?

do you not punch into air?

before you hit a bag, pad, sparring partner firstly you must learn how to punch?

shadow boxing is a form, whether it is free or pre-set you are still practising form?

Boxing does not contains forms because it only has a few techniques which are dictated by the rules fo the competition format?

same goes for Thai, savate, Kickboxing, K-1 or anything else?

Just because i practise forms does not mean the rest of the training that is required to become a successful fighter is neglected. I still do pad work, bag, work, sparring....

however, all my techniques are contained in the forms that i practice....

Apllying the application from the form, translating the techniquesand making them work is the next step from learning forms.

And yes you do learn rooting, posture power generation from forms...when you test your forms....and develop them....

whether form is one movement or 100 you still need to learn the physical form in order to reproduce it it any situation/environment.

I agree that if you were just to perform the forms without understanding them and understanding how to develop these things then it would probably be a waste of time?

but they are the first and last step to understanding and applying your martial art...

We've already dealt with shadow boxing. It is a way to practice incorporation the important element of spontaneity, which is totally missing from forms.

And practising forms does have a detrimental effect on your training. Not only are you wasting valuable training time, you are actually putting the wrong messages into your muscle memory. Surely you agree that the body mechanics of a form is totally different to those of a real fight - unless it is a fight in a choreographed Kung Fu Film.

They are not the first and last step in understanding and applying your martial art at all. They are a massive step in the wrong direction.


Koonghan - You really are an idiot. "Fighters are like Gladiators....." Yes. True. Now show me any form whatsoever that was used to train Gladiators. You talk total contradictory nonsense. But at least you can read minds and sense danger...... yeah, right.

Chris! Come on into the thread man! These guys need you so bad! In fact I'm sure you'll agree that they are making your job much harder! Am I right?

[jingshen]

how do forms teach you wrong?

i don't understand your arguement?

no one said that learning a form will make you fight in that order of techniques?

forms are a reference guide to the techniques in each art?

it's then up to the practitioner to understand each technique through other exercises such as sparring.

yes they do teach you to apply them in a fight. Certainly in my art they do anyway.

yes i have tested this in different situuations from working on doors to debt collecting and just being a trouble maker on the streets....boxing gave me an understanding of violence, chinese martial arts gave me the understanding of different principles ranging from body mechanics to rooting to power generation to delivering the power, locking , ect, etc...

the fact is that if you don't understand them or are not willing to try them then you are missing out on a whole other level to martial arts.

Forms in one way or another have been practised by people for centuries, not just in chinese martial arts but throughout the world, including english quarter staff and short combinations used in fencing....these have all been tested in combat unlike some ' ringsports' that just don't get out of the sports arena?


open your mind, not just your mouth?!

regards

[eXcessiveForce]

Didn't we go through this a year ago Bri?

Forms and BJJ. I recently learned that one of the BJJ blackbelts I know learned by practicing on his uniform. He would throw it on the floor and work with it when he didn't have partners. Or he would go through it in his head.

Grandmasters can play chess in their heads. They play end games. Where you run over the last few moves of a game over and over to hone your abilites.

If you do your forms like shadow boxing you will get the same workout as shadowboxing. Just because some choose to do forms differently is not the forms fault.

Forms are 1 training tool.

Funny thing is when I played basketball they would have us pretend to shoot a imaginary ball at the hoop to work on technique.

I see many golfers practice swing the club with no ball on the ground.

military work on going though "procedures" read "forms" over and over without people really shooting at them.

in one post someone recalled a 45 move combination of Ajarn Chai. (sounds like a form)

again.

learn a technique. group a few techniques into a combination. Group a few combinations and you have a form. Add the attacker and you have reaction drills. Add several forms together and then do random combinations without a partner you have shadowboxing. Add a partner and you have sparring.

This concept cannot be that hard for you to grasp.

now if you use forms as your only way of training you will not develop fighting skills like those that spar regularly but you can increase the use of technique reaction speed and technique speed.

Training needs to include padwork and sparring. Hell if you have sparring partners who needs shadowboxing?

[Sanitarium]

Forms seem to be good for practising the technique of the moves, making sure you have good positioning etc, before you move onto a heavy bag.

Other than that...waste of time I'd say. forms = dancing

My JKD instructor had us hitting thin air for 2 beginners lessons and then we got out the focus mitts. Two lessons later and we're on the heavy pads.

[konghan]

We've already dealt with shadow boxing. It is a way to practice incorporation the important element of spontaneity, which is totally missing from forms.

And practising forms does have a detrimental effect on your training. Not only are you wasting valuable training time, you are actually putting the wrong messages into your muscle memory. Surely you agree that the body mechanics of a form is totally different to those of a real fight - unless it is a fight in a choreographed Kung Fu Film.

They are not the first and last step in understanding and applying your martial art at all. They are a massive step in the wrong direction.


Koonghan - You really are an idiot. "Fighters are like Gladiators....." Yes. True. Now show me any form whatsoever that was used to train Gladiators. You talk total contradictory nonsense. But at least you can read minds and sense danger...... yeah, right.

Chris! Come on into the thread man! These guys need you so bad! In fact I'm sure you'll agree that they are making your job much harder! Am I right?

Thats` why most gladiators end up dead becuase they have no brains they train in a fix format. Like fighters they don`t have such things as master or grandmasters training them all they have are managers like Angelo Dundee who are there to make sure that fighters can make money for them & then rip them off blindly.

Well being an idiot like me is not that bad not like you or fighters who claim to be the best because part of their training is to be arrogant, cocky & to know how to talk trash. But MA espacially great masters there are lots of good thing to learn from them that fighters like you will never understand becuase they can only talk with their fist and too bad the fist doesn`t have a soul.

[Thai Bri]

konghan - I honestly think you're insane.

EF - The thread was started in response to another. You don't have to join min if you don't want to.

Jingshen - this is how they teach you to do it wrong. The balance, body mechanics, stance etc. in forms is totally different than when doing these things for real. By practicing forms, you are teaching your body to do it wrong. Its as simple as that.

[Sanitarium]

he indeed has a point, you need to learn the moves you do in forms, but while encountering resistance from a would-be attacker. It changes the body mechanics a lot, obviously.

I guarantee you someone who has just done forms, vs someone who'd just done heavy bag work/partner work, would either fall of his balance trying to hit the guy, or hit him with pussy-weak hits.

[guy incognito]

I dont know about other styles but in mine we dont do techniques in the form that cant be applied to combat or drills or sparring.We do every single one of them as we learn them against an opponent first.Without doing this the student does do it wrong in the form.
You cant deny the ellement of control of stopping a full power round house kick in front of you instead of keep spinning around.