Why is Kung Fu not considered to be truly effective in actual combat?

[sanjiyan99]

I obtained my information concerning effective martial styles during my younger and teenage years in South Central Los Angeles. All textbook material aside, experience is the true proving ground and reality is the truest master in the field of combat. My observations led me to conclude that among all the traditional styles out there, the most effective are pugilistic systems such as western boxing and muay thai since in a REAL fight where the only given is what you know, gross motor movements (punches, basic kicks, knees, elbows) take over fine motor movements (jump-spinning kicks and kung fu dancing). Pugilistic systems hone and refine these to mastery. Training or having had experience in stressful scenarios also help. Perhaps you are naive to think that what you see in the movies can easily translate to real life when the most mitigating factor is the adrenaline dump immediately introduced into the mind and body during a "fight or flight" situation. In that kind of mindset, do you honestly think your mind can call upon how to step, this movement first before that, or whatever? Be honest. You know it can't. You will do what will come most naturally, even if it is clawing your opponent to death.

[sanjiyan99]

And one more thing --

Only the most basic things in traditional martial arts coming from Japan and China need apply. When you find yourself in an actual altercation, I guarantee that 90% of what you have learned in your dojo/kwoon/dojang will go out the window. The only thing remaining when the adrenal dump comes upon you and you totally lose control will be the basics -- punches, basic kicks, knees, elbows, some scratching.

[AlexJitsu]

I'm not in a fantasy world, which you seem to infer. Nor am I a pure "Kung Fu" stylist. But you need to be educated on Chinese martial arts:

Rarely does somebody use spinning back kicks in a fight (even though people have been knocked out in NHB by them). If it's in a form, it's meant as an acrobatic exercise to develop speed, coordination, and hip flexibility.

Even Northern Shaolin styles, which use a lot of kicking, rarely kick above the waist. Any sort of jumping, flying, or spinning kick is designed as a type of exercise, or it could also be a different technique, for example, a high crescent kick in a form could actually be a knee strike in reality.

Southern Shaolin styles rely on hand techniques mainly, with low kicks to the groin and below. Wing Chun, Praying Mantis, and Hung Gar are some examples of this.

Internal styles, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, and Hsing Yi, are based on natural body movements and relaxation. I think BlackTaoist should be mentioned here, someone who uses Ba Gua on the street and in the ring. (www.blacktaoist.com)

As for me, I study JJ and Hsing Yi. I can assure you, friend, that Hsing Yi isn't some "stupid" Kung Fu system.

[sanjiyan99]

I'm not in a fantasy world, which you seem to infer. Nor am I a pure "Kung Fu" stylist. But you need to be educated on Chinese martial arts:

Rarely does somebody use spinning back kicks in a fight (even though people have been knocked out in NHB by them). If it's in a form, it's meant as an acrobatic exercise to develop speed, coordination, and hip flexibility.

Even Northern Shaolin styles, which use a lot of kicking, rarely kick above the waist. Any sort of jumping, flying, or spinning kick is designed as a type of exercise, or it could also be a different technique, for example, a high crescent kick in a form could actually be a knee strike in reality.

Southern Shaolin styles rely on hand techniques mainly, with low kicks to the groin and below. Wing Chun, Praying Mantis, and Hung Gar are some examples of this.

Internal styles, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, and Hsing Yi, are based on natural body movements and relaxation. I think BlackTaoist should be mentioned here, someone who uses Ba Gua on the street and in the ring. (www.blacktaoist.com)

As for me, I study JJ and Hsing Yi. I can assure you, friend, that Hsing Yi isn't some "stupid" Kung Fu system.

Yes, I'm familiar with the techniques in both Northern and Southern styles. But you are still begging the question -- have you observed them used effectively on the street? Let us take it one step further -- have you ever used your own skills on the street? Did you revert to kickboxing? Did you turn tail and run? Nothing to be ashamed of if you run -- better a live dog than a dead lion. However, if you stayed and fought, please let me know how it transpired.

As for NHB, it's still not the streets, I tell you. Fighting in the ring is like playing a game -- a very dangerous one, at that. However, football can also be placed in the same category, where bodily contact can result in very serious injury. Not to mention hockey, where fights between players occur more often. But, I am merely talking about street survival applications. I do not wish to discuss more than that.

Concerning Hsing Yi, I have heard of it but never did I get a chance to see it in action. As for my education in the martial arts, most of it came from the streets of Los Angeles where "little kids like to kill people, everyday". The other textbook material I've picked up is from things I've read about and observed here and there, but I always like to learn new things.

[IPON]

sanjiyan99 - it is a big planet, the US and LA are just a little pin prick on the globe. Just think about that before you paint all MA styles, you may be in for a rude awakening. But Hey you need the range not a MA if you are in LA anyway, no?

[AlexJitsu]

Unfortunately I've been in a few enounters and brawls, and at the time I didn't know Hsing Yi. My JJ worked perfectly, however.

Hsing Yi is a very no-nonsense art. There is no "hip chambered punching", or reliance on "d34dly spear hands", only things that would actually work. Hsing Yi boxers are effective at all ranges, and most famously, ultra short distances. In Internal martial arts, one can generate explosive force (fa jin)with a 0 inch distance if needed.

In a real fight, you'll be in short-ultra short (clinch) distances most of the time. This is why internal arts are so effective, you don't need distance to strike.

Before I learned Hsing Yi, my striking was somewhat like western boxing and what little TKD I knew. However, when the adrenaline kicked in, I began punching with my triceps, because these were not instinctive movements. Hsing Yi has seemed to work much better, it just seems like a more natural way of moving and striking.

[Tom Yum]

However, when the adrenaline kicked in, I began punching with my triceps, because these were not instinctive movements. Hsing Yi has seemed to work much better, it just seems like a more natural way of moving and striking.

Not enough sparring with your boxing technique then.

I don't know much about xing yi or ba gua, but I've heard alot of good things about the style.

[sanjiyan99]

Hsing Yi is a very no-nonsense art. There is no "hip chambered punching", or reliance on "d34dly spear hands", only things that would actually work. Hsing Yi boxers are effective at all ranges, and most famously, ultra short distances. In Internal martial arts, one can generate explosive force (fa jin)with a 0 inch distance if needed.

In a real fight, you'll be in short-ultra short (clinch) distances most of the time. This is why internal arts are so effective, you don't need distance to strike.

Before I learned Hsing Yi, my striking was somewhat like western boxing and what little TKD I knew. However, when the adrenaline kicked in, I began punching with my triceps, because these were not instinctive movements. Hsing Yi has seemed to work much better, it just seems like a more natural way of moving and striking.

Were I in the clinch, I would throw a bunch of knees to some very exposed targets -- kidneys, solar plexus, spleen, etc. Otherwise, I would keep pushing the back of their head downwards so my knee meets their face.

I regret that I have no friends who have any knowledge of Hsing Yi. From the research I did on the Net, it sounds like an intriguing martial art, something new. As of now the only Chinese TMA I found effective was Bak Mei, but that may be just the way my friend in San Francisco teaches it. However, I am always open to new ideas in fighting. Now I wish I could spar with a Hsing Yi fighter.

IPON -- From the time a child growing up in South Central LA is ready to attend formal schooling, he had better learn to be proficient with his hands and feet! If a firearm is involved, may gang members are unable to shoot straight either because of the way they hold the pistol ("gangsta" style grip where the gun is turned sideways), or because of the earthquakes. I received all my firearms training in the Army. My parents would kill me before I ever joined a gang. The unfortunate ones have no fathers in their homes to keep them in line.

[47MartialMan]

Actually, the monks learned Indian yoga to increase their endurance during meditation, not Kung Fu. They needed Kung Fu to defend themselves from bandits, thieves, and those types of groups. Many people believe that martial arts originated from Greek pankration, which then spread throughout Asia via Alexander the Great. The Chinese then learned this and improved on it.

I have no idea where you, sanjiyan99, got your information, but you are surely mistaken. Also, to label all Chinese martial arts (or as you would say, "Kung Fu") "impractical", just shows how naive you are. It's like saying shotokan and Kyokushin Karate are the same thing.

Actually you are partial correct. I have been studying Buddhism. A college professor of mine of Eastern religion-exp his course and expertise was Buddhism, had got me involved. Chan monks did not like fighting. In the order of the monastic situation, I was speaking with other Buddhist monks. The consenus and discussion was that the temples took in rebels and other "outside" fighters and gave them sanctuary. To hide their identity, these rebels shaved their heads and wore robes to become monks in cognito.
Chinese martial art systems before the 19th century were not called Kung Fu. China had martial arts long before Greek Pankration and Alexander The Great. Asian martial arts were developed long before Shaolin. As much of it (Asian systems) came out of India-not Greece. Egyptians had martial arts long before other European and thus spread this onto Greece. Which in turn distributed methods towards the rest of Europe. The martial arts and "systematic" (several dozen, hundreds, thousands, people training the same) fighting methods existed per the envolution of people fighting people-plain and simple. One has to only research war and human conflict per human civilization to see that fighting, per martial arts have key focal points-India to Asia, Egypt to Greece/Masceptoian, Greece to Europe. Uncanny, was that the Roman Empire came back and rule/dominated Egypt.

Now this must be noted: Although India, Egypt, Asia, and Greece had the oldest periods of martial arts, new systems and methods were developed by other martial art fighters in accordance to where they were birthed or resided. Therefore, the martial arts is a huge "melting pot" with none can be able to claim the supreme "alpha".

[47MartialMan]

I obtained my information concerning effective martial styles during my younger and teenage years in South Central Los Angeles. All textbook material aside, experience is the true proving ground and reality is the truest master in the field of combat. My observations led me to conclude that among all the traditional styles out there, the most effective are pugilistic systems such as western boxing and muay thai since in a REAL fight where the only given is what you know, gross motor movements (punches, basic kicks, knees, elbows) take over fine motor movements (jump-spinning kicks and kung fu dancing). Pugilistic systems hone and refine these to mastery. Training or having had experience in stressful scenarios also help. Perhaps you are naive to think that what you see in the movies can easily translate to real life when the most mitigating factor is the adrenaline dump immediately introduced into the mind and body during a "fight or flight" situation. In that kind of mindset, do you honestly think your mind can call upon how to step, this movement first before that, or whatever? Be honest. You know it can't. You will do what will come most naturally, even if it is clawing your opponent to death.

Kung Fu (incorrect term-bad misnomer) was invented by body guards, soldiers, and general all-around-bad-guys. Chinese boxing can be reliably traced back to the Chou dynasty (1111-221 B.C.), where schools of martial arts were instituted among the nobility, which predates Shaolin by at least 700 years or so. After Shaolin was established, retired generals and criminals sought refuge there, and brought Kung Fu to the monks. The monks, in turn, merged the practice of Kung Fu with their Ch'an ideology. So, while Shaolin Kung Fu may have emphasis on peaceful practice and pursuits, Kung Fu in general was created to break legs and poke out eyeballs. the question-why would a religious order want to practice this. And no, not for defense as much of a culture as China-people did not go around attacking monks. Buddhist monks did not have wealth. Hmmn, brings to another question why "suppose" Shaolin monks of today charge for lessons and make a living at it?

[47MartialMan]

Another interesting article I had found:

Shaolin

In his book, “China-The 50 Most Memorable Trips”, the author, J.D. Brown, states on pages 486-488:

“Shao Lin is a monument to mass tourism Chinese style. Open daily from 8am-6pm, it’s a commercial maze of souvenir venders inside and outside the temple complex, always crowded. The problem is that even the People’s Republic of China is doing films that glorify fighting monks of Shao Lin, and they’re are filming them right here, on the actual site. This is China’s Universal City Studios of Flying Fists, the spiritual and commercial center of the martial arts.

After several paragraphs, common history, J.D. Brown goes on to state:

“The martial arts, not Zen, are what bring tourists in these days. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the fighting monks of Shao Lin were taking on pesky Japanese pirates off China’s coast. During the 1920’s, when China was in civil turmoil and local warlords held away, the Shao Lin Temple was a haven for runaway soldiers who terrorized the local population.”

“I elbow my way through the late morning crowds to see Thousand Buddha Hall, built in 1588, with its fading fresco of monks. It will make a dandy movie poster. And the single most famous temple floor in China, roped off now and unlighted, where the monks practiced their stomping and leaps so diligently that the heavy stone floor became intended. Even cursory inspection suggests to me that the water table was high or the subsoil unstable under this floor, and that here and there it simply sank. I have a concrete driveway that looks about the same, and it was poured long after the 16th century.”

“To stretch the imagination further, I line up for a peek at the Shadow Stone, removed from Da Mo’s cave. A Chinese traveler described it this way in 1623:”I saw the shadow stone of Da Mo. Less than 3 feet high, it was white with black traces of a vivid standing picture of the foreign patriarch.” What I see is a slab of rock, burned or discolored, with the vaguest outlines of a human figure in meditation.”

“More vibrant, and more in keeping with the holy amusement park atmosphere of modern Shao Lin, is a courtyard surrounded on three side by open-air displays of wooden life-sized monks in dramatic fighting poses. They look like rather old carvings, but they may be merely dusty. Some are armed with swords and poles and locked into fierce combat. These days Shao Lin does a hefty business running a half-dozen major martial arts schools for everyone from schoolchildren in China to visiting kung fu clubs from Japan, America, and Europe.”

[dacosta]

But how is waving arms about in forms, wearing pyjamas and generally posing going to prepare someone for a real fight?

Agreed, MMA tournaments are not perfect preparation for the street. But they are still infinitley better than 99.9% of Kung Fu.

The real problem is tha most people who do Kung Fu are not really interested in training to be a fighter. They train mainly to perfect a form, a style,...

There are some that are only concern about fighting, I was told there are a lot of them in SouthEast Asia. I use to train for fighting when was a teen, but then I ended up fighting almost every day. I had not got into a fight since 9th grade, and I only did one tourniment (I got disqualified for punching the guy in the nose in a Karate tourniment). I nolonger train to fight and I don't incourgage my students to train for fighting. And I bet I can still fight, even old kung fu style -- forget the ring -- raise the platform or put up the stumps. My punching bag is wood and concret -- this is old style kung fu -- eye jabing, biting, kicking in the nuts,...

Kung fu has historical taught it all -- wrestling, kick boxing, weaponds. Kung fu was just the first to become a preforming art (wu shu).

[dacosta]

Kung fu was originally invented to be a form of exercise for the monks who did nothing but mediate all the day long. Long periods of inactivity took a toll on their bodies so a fellow monk from another place having seen the effects of inactivity and thermodynamics on the monks, taught them sixteen different exercises they could perform easily and on a daily basis to keep in shape. Kung fu is a martial art in that it is a form of fighting without much substance, akin to shooting blanks from a gun.

Muay thai, on the other hand, was invented for the purpose of putting down people in wartime activity -- tried and tested on the battlefield in wars between Siam and neighboring nations such as Burma.

With all due respect to the Chinese martial arts, it is my own personal opinion that Chinese martial arts have their place in performance, in the circus, and in the movies. However, they are just not practical for real life combat.

Your wrong. Kung fu was invented by soldiers for combat -- real combat -- that is why weapons are so important. The monk/religious thing came later. And yes, it really changed when guns became popular. Less and less practised it. Now for the most part it is a preforming art (a tiger that has had its nails clipped), but all the techniques are still there so all kung fu needs to do is change its focus again.

After all, it was one of the first mixed martial arts.

[Lthunder]

Your wrong. Kung fu was invented by soldiers for combat -- real combat -- that is why weapons are so important. The monk/religious thing came later. And yes, it really changed when guns became popular. Less and less practised it. Now for the most part it is a preforming art (a tiger that has had its nails clipped), but all the techniques are still there so all kung fu needs to do is change its focus again.

After all, it was one of the first mixed martial arts.

Dacosta you and sanjiyan99 are partially correct ot the origin of Kung fu. Shaoling Kung Fu was developed by Da Mo in response to the lack of physical constitution the monks at the Shoalin Abbey possessed. But there has been some form of martial training since the dawn of man.

Kung Fu has never lost it's focus. Trained properly with a good Sifu Chinese Kung Fu is as deadly as any other art if not more. The focus has been lost by those student's who don't train the Martial and only train the Art. The main problem is that most American's want everything handed to them on a plate. They want "wicked " techniques and flashy kicks, and not the whole system which is how Kung fu teaches.

[jubaji]

Kung Fu has never lost it's focus. Trained properly with a good Sifu Chinese Kung Fu is as deadly as any other art if not more. The focus has been lost by those student's who don't train the Martial and only train the Art. The main problem is that most American's want everything handed to them on a plate. They want "wicked " techniques and flashy kicks, and not the whole system which is how Kung fu teaches.

And which way do you train?