TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Sanchin, Tensho are fundamental Kata of most Ryuku karate styles. Practicing them allows to find correct posture and breathe correctly. These katas allow you to develop power in your strikes and give you control over tension. They also allow to build a powerful physique and a strong fighting spirit. I don't see why those benefits cannot give entire satisfation to any martist.

Sanchin en Tensho are Kata from the Naha branch so Goju and Uechi as well as the combi art of Shito
the Shuri branch doesn't have those, there Kushanku and or Naihanchi are the most important Kata

[krys]

Karate form = anything you could do on a heavy bag. Also, stop and go, so it's basically useless.

And to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable and the karate katas are not to any degree of satisfaction.

Sanchin, Tensho are fundamental Kata of most Ryuku karate styles. Practicing them allows to find correct posture and breathe correctly. These katas allow you to develop power in your strikes and give you control over tension. They also allow to build a powerful physique and a strong fighting spirit. I don't see why those benefits cannot give entire satisfation to any martist.

[Toudiyama[NL]]

the Karate that i mean i frequently watch on their tournament are the ff:
1. Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate
2. Phil-Tai Karate Association
3. VilCat Karate Club
4. PhilSiSuDo Karate Club
5. Karatedo
6. NaJuKaJu-A (National Judo Karate JuiJitSu Association)
7. Tang Soo Do Karate Club
8. Can't remember any more, so very many........
(all karate that i mention is all found within the City)

appart from number 1 the rest looks like BS
7 Tang soo Do is Korean and therefore no Karate to begin with0

because most of KungFu hand attacks are only not legal in the tournament, also foul and disqualified if used in a tournament, so...... kungfu will usually loose the fight in a tournament versus karate or tae kwon do......

And my question was, why do you think it is different for them?
Tournaments are the gamepart of the MA only a small part of the curriculum is done depending on the rules
If you say they block with their chest than it is obvious that one can't score there, and seeing that it is only a gamee of scoring points, who cares if someone hits you in the chest ( can't imagine someone taking a punch to the face)
Sports need rules, SD doesn't, if you enter sports, you better use the rules to your advantage instead of seeing them as a restriction

[sherwinc]

What you discribe is TKD not Karate, what are called freestyle Karate tournaments are actually TKD tournaments

Waht you discribe is Fake commercialised Karate lookalikes

the Karate that i mean i frequently watch on their tournament are the ff:
1. Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate
2. Phil-Tai Karate Association
3. VilCat Karate Club
4. PhilSiSuDo Karate Club
5. Karatedo
6. NaJuKaJu-A (National Judo Karate JuiJitSu Association)
7. Tang Soo Do Karate Club
8. Can't remember any more, so very many........
(all karate that i mention is all found within the City)

i am mostly present cause i enjoy watching them tournament as a leisure time.....

most of my friends are also black belt of different karate schools.....

You yourself do not enter any tournaments because they are restrictive, why do you think it isn't the same for them

because most of KungFu hand attacks are only not legal in the tournament, also foul and disqualified if used in a tournament, so...... kungfu will usually loose the fight in a tournament versus karate or tae kwon do......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

..... if they cant apply that thing in a tournament, then, they cant apply that too in an actual street fight......

What you discribe is TKD not Karate, what are called freestyle Karate tournaments are actually TKD tournaments

Waht you discribe is Fake commercialised Karate lookalikes


You yourself do not enter any tournaments because they are restrictive, why do you think it isn't the same for them

Only if punches to the body do not score, then people will allow the other to punch there since tournaments are sports and if you want to win you have to use the rules
So if you can't score on the body then you can use it to get closer to a target that does score

Tournamentrules differ a lot esspecialy outside the big assocs
The WKF is the largest Karate organisation in the world, what they do is point karate, this style of competing doesn't allow for thing you discribe
3 full points or 6 halfs or a combination of both will give you a win, sloppy techniques do not score
contact is skintouch to the face, slightly harder to the body
The match is pause after a score
No safe-T kicks or punches are worn only handprotectors without thumb
These rules do not allow for body and faceblocks because the match would be over within 20 seconds

BTW the only way you are gonna take my reverse punch shot to the body is on the ground gasping for air ( noone up to now managed to take the blow)

I've seen this freestyle karatetournaments, they think that they score anytime the glove touches, perfection of technique isn't important

[chris davis 200]

You guys keep saying that I am comparing karate to Kung Fu but that isn’t true. I am saying that even though the drills and format are different they still both have some bad habit building exercises and drills. These drills I have already mentioned. Karate and KF as well as many others MAs perform techniques in the air, and a lot of them. They both do a lot of self-defense techniques with the defender knowing what the attacker will do.

Ok ... please let me Ask something here - by saying Kung fu what are you talking about?? External animal styles of shaolin? Family styles like Hung Gar? more obscure styles like Drunken Immortal Boxing? Chinese Wrestling? San shou? Gymnastic Modern Wu Shu? Military prininciple based Arts Like Hsing I (similar to traditional Western Boxing!) or Lohan Chuan? Internal / external systems such as White Crane? mulitple opponent arts like Ba gua?

to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable

I do forms in the internal systems i practice - they are not there to develop street fighting moves - but to develop the tendon and sinew structure of the body - this gives you more power than just building muscle in the gym, as tendons hold far greater potential energy. Sports scientists are coming to the realisation that tendon development can be extremely important in efficiency and power in athletes. they are trying to develop methods of working on tendons - these methods have been around for years - in the internal martial arts.

Having strong tendons mean i have strong striking abilities and excellent explosive power.

In two person practice there is push hands and two person sets - again - just for training - to get used to a persons movement - not as a bunch of techniques - once you understand how a person moves you are able to deal with any persons movements.

In 'sparring' (but i wouldnt can it that) my teacher will say - attack as you want - we do and get our asses kicked every time. I have studied Martial arts for about 17 years - have high grades in Judo, Ju Jutsu etc and have trained Muay thai and many other systems. I have no solution to his responces. And yet with nearly all other martial artists / street guys / modern arts practitioners i have met i can deal with them with some level of skill.

He has trained NOTHING but traditional systems - and assures me there is a big difference in skill between the modern 'thug' and the traditional trained MAist. I believe him after working with many such modern guys and seeing / beating many modern stylists - but getting defeated by him on every occation.

Here is a little story which i had the pleasure of witnising.

My teacher was doing a class in a park one day. A group of guys came over and said that they would like to 'try him out' to see if he had any real skill after seeing a bunch of applications. My teacher said sure, They tried to establish some rules but my teacher said there were none in a challange.

The guy shot for a double leg, my teacher slapped him hard on the the side of the head knocking him out. My teacher then revived him and got him some water from a nearby cafe.

The guy was a Ju JutsuKa.

Also, tag styled one-dimensional sparring is rampant in both. I am sure there are some styles or schools that go beyond this from time to time.

I have never done this type of thing in ANY traditional systems - only modern ones. Karate and Taekwondo are the only arts i know with any history that practice this sort of work. AND it is a fairly modern edition to those systems - not a traditional method.

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

Pllleeeassee - you say to someone i will throw a punch and you defend then do a different technique.

This is not a realistic street situation so how the hell can you judge???

As stated before in the street you prepare for any eventuality with no pre concieved ideal of what with happen next!!

aikido is also a modern art (post Meiji Martial art - like Judo), but doesnt do punching in the air, Kata or forms? how does this relate, where does it fit into your defenition of Modern or traditional???

I also discovered something interesting years ago. When I was working on weapons defenses against knives. If I knew the grip and the strike my partner was going to use regardless of speed and commitment I was able to defend 99.9% of the time with no problem. But if he uses an unknown attack with an unknown grip at full speed with feints, or punches from his non-weapons hand, or kicks as a lead or as follow ups my percentages for successful defenses went way down, somewhere in the 50% range. I am much better now, because I now do more live and unpredictable training.

I wonder how live your training really is - if you were attacking me full pelt even in training i would respond with equal force - both of us would probably get hurt in some way. I am guessing you are expecting your students to pull punches, knee's, kicks, headbuts, elbows etc due to the need for saftey. May i ask what the difference is between this type of false practice where after a headbut you continue attacking instead of thinking about your caved in face, and the point sparring tappy tappy stuff you so dispise.

I see lots of combative stuff and modern street stuff which doesnt actually train with much contact or real consideration of what their strikes will do - attacks just ignoring the kidney punch and the head but or the knee and continuing to attack like nothing has happened - and yet some still consider it the yardstick by which all systems should be measured.

cheers
chris

[sherwinc]

true




I do not know which karate you have watched but if I would block with my chest or face, I lose a point
A puch to the head is blocked with a sliding block combined with a reverse punch counter 95% of the times
A puch to the chest also sliding but with a backfist counter
other way is sidestepping, rotating and counterattacking

Man where do you get your info on other Martial Arts from? www.onlyfunguisreal.com or something?

in TMA category, Karate and TaeKwonDo are the 2 very very common, and most people here in our place are familiar with these arts......

but when i notice that all of the Karate and TaeKwonDo tournaments here in our place, they did not really block their opponents hand attacks, as you might see..... he who is the most tough chest and face against opponents punch a common scenery here..... they never mind if they've been hit on thier chest..... instead, they also retaliate a punch to their partner.... and vice versa....... no sence of forearm blocking even thou in their training is full of forearm blocking......


they could not easily apply most of their techniques in a tournament but during their training is full of karate and taekwondo alphabets.....

and i frequently notice that they cant also apply in the tournament the techniques that they know in their Kata's and Pomsee's.... the reason why i also said before that Karate and TaeKwonDo's Kata's and Pomsee's are useless..... if they cant apply that thing in a tournament, then, they cant apply that too in an actual street fight......

[Toudiyama[NL]]

try do that double leg takedown to a boxing, muaythai, kickboxing, sub wrestling, etc... and will will still achieve the same results......

true

and these karate and tae kwon do, even thou they have forearm blocking, still, they use their face and chest to block the opponents hand attacks......

and that is the reason why i quit karate and switch to kungfu......

I do not know which karate you have watched but if I would block with my chest or face, I lose a point
A puch to the head is blocked with a sliding block combined with a reverse punch counter 95% of the times
A puch to the chest also sliding but with a backfist counter
other way is sidestepping, rotating and counterattacking

Man where do you get your info on other Martial Arts from? www.onlyfunguisreal.com or something?

[Toudiyama[NL]]

but in a legal law transactions, ORIGINAL Documents is highly recommended or honored rather than a XEROXED type of Documents

Note:
Try Xerox your Passport or VISA, then throw your original Passport or VISA and lets see if you can still travel to another foreign land with a xerox copy left.....

Martial Arts aren't legal transactions, already told you that, it doesn't matter if you compare it like that 100x it is still a flawed comparison.
Your line of reasoning, I can use too, every student is no more than a COPY of his teacher, no student therefore can become better than his teacher and the art they practice will inevitabely decline

[sherwinc]

1) I got mad at a 4th Dan (Shotokan instructor) for saying crap about self-defense and non traditionalists. I finally had enough and called him on the carpet for this and told him he was full of shit and told him I would show him. We sparred but I didn't use karate I didn't do what he expected instead I shot in with a double leg takedown and took him down and as I rolled him to his stomach I pulled my safety knife (he didn't know I had it) and slit his throat (not for real of course).

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

try do that double leg takedown to a boxing, muaythai, kickboxing, sub wrestling, etc... and will will still achieve the same results......

and these karate and tae kwon do, even thou they have forearm blocking, still, they use their face and chest to block the opponents hand attacks......

and that is the reason why i quit karate and switch to kungfu......

[sherwinc]

the Shaolin temple is now just a tourist trap by the chinese government - anybody that believes the boxing styles located in or even mainly around the temple, are delluding themselves unfortunatley. Most of the Top chinese boxers are hidden away or moved to taiwan.

Even chen family village is now a tourist trap allong with the taoist Conplex at Wu Dang mountain.

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china. He has travelled EXTENSIVELY in china and i take his word for it.

Cheers
chris

good post!!!!!!!

i have a correction.......

not only they go to Taiwan, but.....

they go to Taiwan, Singapore and the Philippines........

[sherwinc]

Sherwinc, if you don't read my posts, please do not reply to them, I explained in MA you can't speak of COPY

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change
Karate=enhanced digital copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations
TKD=analog copy of a partial copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations

Although the original source material might have been watered down, this doesn't say anything about what is better

Oh and don't talk god to an atheist, I am no copy of a figment of the imagination

but in a legal law transactions, ORIGINAL Documents is highly recommended or honored rather than a XEROXED type of Documents

Note:
Try Xerox your Passport or VISA, then throw your original Passport or VISA and lets see if you can still travel to another foreign land with a xerox copy left.....

[AlexJitsu]

That aikido story was pretty inaccurate. If you're someones friend and you're training with them, and he says "do this", and you do something else, no shit he won't expect a double leg. That's called "cheating"...and don't say, "oh but on the street...", because on the street you expect anything. He was expecting a punch, and nothing else. Also, don't you think it's kinda hoaky that an aikido person got taken down and owned?

My brother does that to me all the time and it pisses me off. For the beginners, it is essential that they can do the technique without any resistance at FIRST, and then with resistance once they can do the movements perfectly 10 times out of 10.

Also, the difference between Karate and Kung Fu forms?

Karate form = anything you could do on a heavy bag. Also, stop and go, so it's basically useless.

Kung Fu form = contains techniques and principles, much more complex, flowing, not stop and go, develops agility and accuracy. Kung Fu forms have low stances to develop strength in the legs while doing the form, but you don't actually use the low stances in combat.

Also, formwork in internal martial arts is essential in order to have any power within your striking.

[darrianation]

You guys keep saying that I am comparing karate to Kung Fu but that isn’t true. I am saying that even though the drills and format are different they still both have some bad habit building exercises and drills. These drills I have already mentioned. Karate and KF as well as many others MAs perform techniques in the air, and a lot of them. They both do a lot of self-defense techniques with the defender knowing what the attacker will do. The defender knows if the attacker is armed and with what strike he will use. So, even if the attack is done at full speed and power the defender still knows what his defense will be because he still knows what the attack is. This is unrealistic training. In real life you do not know if your attacker is armed (so, always assume he is), and you have no idea when or how he will attack, or how much determination he will have or how fierce he will fight.

Now, this is okay to teach beginners with strikes in the air and with pre-arranged defenses so he can learn the mechanics, timing, and application of the technique, but for intermediate students this should be phased out, and for advanced students this type of training shouldn’t even be considered. At this point it should be all about the effective application of the technique or combinations of techniques.

Also, tag styled one-dimensional sparring is rampant in both. I am sure there are some styles or schools that go beyond this from time to time.

So I guess you guys are saying that real non-commercialized schools don’t do techniques in thin air, they don’t do pre-arranged drills or pre-determined drills, or tag/one dimensional sparring. And to date no one has explained to me why the Chinese forms are applicable and the karate katas are not to any degree of satisfaction.

I will give you some examples of further reasons why pre-determined attack/defenses can lead to disaster in the real world.

1) I got mad at a 4th Dan (Shotokan instructor) for saying crap about self-defense and non traditionalists. I finally had enough and called him on the carpet for this and told him he was full of shit and told him I would show him. We sparred but I didn't use karate I didn't do what he expected instead I shot in with a double leg takedown and took him down and as I rolled him to his stomach I pulled my safety knife (he didn't know I had it) and slit his throat (not for real of course).

I had a very good friend who is an 4th dan aikido instructor who I nagged and nagged to spar. He would always decline saying he would hurt me (break my arm). Finally he got tiered of my insistence and agreed to let me punch at him and he would show me his defense. So, instead of throwing the punch like he expected, I shot in for a double leg takedown, and pummeled him into submission (just lightly though). He could not defend against what he didn’t expect.

I also discovered something interesting years ago. When I was working on weapons defenses against knives. If I knew the grip and the strike my partner was going to use regardless of speed and commitment I was able to defend 99.9% of the time with no problem. But if he uses an unknown attack with an unknown grip at full speed with feints, or punches from his non-weapons hand, or kicks as a lead or as follow ups my percentages for successful defenses went way down, somewhere in the 50% range. I am much better now, because I now do more live and unpredictable training.

I learned that grabbing for feints can cost me my life in a real situation, gunting and weaponless defangs did not work 90% of the time when I did not know what, when, or how he would attack, but worked 99% of the time only when I knew the type of attack he was going to use even when he was aggressive and offensive with it.

My students have learned if I stand in front of them with a knife in my hand and attack, they can successfully defend themselves 98-99% of the time. However if I put the knife in my belt and attack them empty handed then I pull the knife when the time and distancing is right for me, when I have the advantage, I can get (stab/slash) them at least 90% of the time. I also do this with other MA friends. However with this type of training they have gotten a lot better.

It is one thing to defend against an attack if you know what’s coming, it’s a whole other ballgame to defend against unknown aggressive and determined attacks.

But I am sure all you guys in real martial arts already know and do this type of training. It’s only those fake commercialized guys that do those ichy punches in thin air, and pre-arranged defenses and drills and only do tag/one dimensional sparring…huh?

[chris davis 200]

most definately!!!

Many of then have also 'cross-pollinated' with the indiginous systems to produce something similar but with a different mindset or flavour.

some excellent mixed arts can be found there.

Regards
chris