TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[sherwinc]

I was Traditionally trained in Karate, as well as other sport and TMA systems about 18 years in all. I later made the switch to combatives and reality based martial arts, and now I teach reality-based self-defense.

but Karate is not good in a Street Fight....... worst of all is the Tae Kwon Do......

Why is it that when discussing the effectiveness of the TMAs (rather it’s kung-fu, karate, TKD, etc) the main topic seems to be centered on techniques?

because the highest level in fighting is to finish your opponent by hitting him and dont let your opponent to hit you even just once...... although its impossible as you might think but there's no impossible in this world if you have the WILL.......

1) Knowledge
2) Prevention
3) Awareness
4) Avoidance
5) De-escalation
6) Physical confrontation

all of the 1 up to 6 that you mention are also found in kungfu.....

example is the Tiger Style KungFu......

a Tiger KungFu practitioner fights with a criminal instinct (animal flavor) Mental Toughness like a Fierce Tiger.......

Note:

a Mental Toughness with a Plenty of Techniques learned is a far more superior compare to a Mental Toughness with only 6 hand alphabets learned.....

Question:
1. In Western Boxing, using your 6 hand alphabets.... how can you defend if someone attacks you with a knife????? are you going to use your face or chest to block that knife????? and how about if the knife fighter is an expert in WingChun??????

[Uncle Corny]

you still inquiring about my cock, tommy?

[Tom Yum]

if i had to put money on who would win in a fight: a traditional martial artist or a ballet dancer, i'd go for the ballet dancer.

Which one would you most likely ask on a date?

[darrianation]

The late Tatang Illustrissimo, a famous escrimador with a very high (even in filipino standards) body count once said he could teach his system in two weeks....

Sign me up!

Hey Krys, waz’ up?

Let me start by me saying that when it comes to Arnis you will not get an argument from me. I’m sold (for the most part) on the effectiveness of Arnis. Arnis is not only a weapons based system but it is real world appropriate weapons based system. Many RBSD systems utilize Arnis concepts and weapons components in there systems. I know I do.

I wonder if it has anything at all to do with the Spanish influences on Kali that makes it a good blend with RBSD? The reason I ask is because another difference between RBSD and many TMAs is it (RBSD) is strongly influenced by western culture, philosophies, and ideals, whereas many TMAs are mostly if not totally influenced by eastern culture, philosophies, and traditions. At any rate there will be some traditional systems that fall outside the model that we are used to seeing here in the west.

I think when most people at least in the west think of traditional martial arts we think of Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan, and Korean martial arts, but it is good to remember that there are many others like Kali/Arnis/Escrima, Burmese, Thai, and etc. Even in the west there is the knights in fighting armor, pankreation (sp?), boxing, RBSD, combatives, and others, and let us not forget Russian martial arts. Not all these MAs are cut from the same mold.

I started this thread because many martial artists do not really understand what RBSD is, and how it differs. I gave some example per my experiences with both.

Many TMAs rely on anecdotal data to claim their techniques work, “it works because it has been around for a 1000 years”, or “it works because I used it successfully once”, or it works because my master used it”. Whereas in RBSD we like to see it backed up by empirical data. After the empirical data has been analyzed we find that many techniques that the TMA world swears by, in reality are low performers in extreme conditions. We take a no non-sense approach to fighting and really get into the science of crime and self-defense.

Some of the science:

Psychology: sport psychology and behavioral/criminal psychology- Sport Psychology gives us ways of dealing with performance anxiety and improved methods of teaching how to deal with stress, fear, and the adrenalin rush. Behavioral and criminal as well as neurobiology we learn what makes the criminal tick, this allows us better ways to focus our attention and awareness to keep us a step ahead of the criminals.

Criminal science: as it pertains to RBSD, It helps us understand what the criminal is looking for when he is out hunting his prey. Once he finds his victim he will approach in a number of ways from asking for the time, the ambush, even multiples circling or using funneling tactics, and others. They can be very cunning and deceptive. We learn to recognize their behavior and know how to act for the best positive outcome. We learn to develop personal security plans, as well as know how to properly perform threat and risk assessments to keep out of harms way.

Sport science: Sport science help us teach and learn proper modes/methods of increasing our physical attributes for the best results in the shortest amount of time, as well as proper biomechanics for speed and power. This is really about how to set up an efficient training regime, to become a better fighter in a faster amount of time.

Techniques: In RBSD we believe in keeping our arsenal to it’s lowest constitute minimum. We believe that technique should take advantage of startle and flinch responses as well as all other survival stress related responses. If a techniques needs to have flawless execution, precision timing and laser targeting to work then we don’t want those techniques. We want techniques that are practical, functional, and effective. We want techniques that work at high percentages under extreme circumstances, stress, and fear. Techniques need to be gross motor skilled simple to learn and easy to retain without spending large amounts of time practicing and perfecting them.

I think Arnis qualifies under techniques, but RBSD isn’t just about physical fighting techniques. Even in Arnis we never delved into how to conduct a threat assessment or how to put together a home, car, or a personal (everyday) security plan. We did not learn about criminal behavior and how to recognize danger before it became obvious (although I believe now days many instructors are beginning to teach some of these things). Now, granted if you grew up in the mean streets of Manila or east LA you would naturally develop a heighten sense of awareness and you know intuitively when something isn’t right, same with battle experienced soldiers or civilians living in warring regions. However some people need to be taught this plus RBSD takes it even further actually delving into the criminal mind as well as bringing together many sciences to make us a harder target (less desirable victim) as well as better more ferocious fighters in a faster amount of time (at least that’s the goal).

[Uncle Corny]

if i had to put money on who would win in a fight: a traditional martial artist or a ballet dancer, i'd go for the ballet dancer.

[krys]

Oh one thing I'd like to add ...
There is a difference between real TMAs and imported McDojo stuff.
Karate taught in a local club is a little different from the real thing in Okinawa.

[krys]

Good post darrianation, much of your points are relevant to the majority of the unarmed TMAs taught in the west. I have to add Arnis, Silat and the less known Kuntao are traditional martial arts, do you doubt their effeciency?
I don't have time to answer all the points of your (long) post , but here are some points:

Time and time again they fail to recognize that the majority of effective techniques are almost always universal to all systems and are usually the most basic techniques in their system.

Not really, for instance in Arnis-Silat we use lots of feints, these are designed to surprise our opponents and finish them quickly.... if these were that universal what is the point of teaching them?

, The ability to deal effectively with fear, stress, and adrenalin, while executing a determined, aggressive, and tenacious offensive. This by far is more important than which techniques you have or how many techniques you know.

In TMA training tudents are often put under pressure by having them attacked by multiple opponents, armed with real weapons sometimes or having sand or peper thrown into their faces and hit right afterwards....there are many ways to learn how to deal with those things.

When it comes to the physical confrontation there are three main categories to consider. The foremost important is Mindset (killer instinct), The ability to deal effectively with fear, stress, and adrenalin, while executing a determined, aggressive, and tenacious offensive.

Training with weapons teach you all this, no reality tested TMA doesn't include weapon training in it's curriculum.

Many classical systems also use inefficient methods of teaching, not that the student cannot become proficient or effective at some point, it just takes a lot longer than it needs too.

The late Tatang Illustrissimo, a famous escrimador with a very high (even in filipino standards) body count once said he could teach his system in two weeks....

Classical systems turn out a lot of students with proficient technical skills but the percentage of functional and effective fighters (street) is far lower.

I wounld't go to a thirld world country like the Philippines or Indonesia where violence is rampant and claim that.... peoples there use their skills in the street, if it doesn't work in the street you are dead...

These guys embraced new technologies, they looked into psychology both behavioral and criminal, they looked at the latest studies and practices of sport science and athletic performance and embraced it.

There always a difference between theory and practice.... all the nice theories we learned at university don't always work that way in real life. I personnaly prefer to learn fighting from somebody who already used the skills he teaches.....
There were a lot of conflicts in south east Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, Philippines...) and skilled veterans who used TMAs to survive are still around. Yes use the new technologies (I use ROSS to improve my TMAs), but you don't need to use a lot of science to cut somebody's throat effectively... peoples have done it for thousands of years .

we have found that many of the so called fine motor skilled techniques simply fail when faced with stress, fear and adrenalin.

Good training reduces fear and stress, some TMAs also teach you how to use effectively adrenalin . As you grow older you need to developp proper techniques, as you cannot relly any longuer on strength and speed. GM Illustrissimo had very fine skills and his style is very subtle:

Grandmaster Illustrisimo used to frequent bars in the rough areas of Manila. He often got into fights in such hotspots. He had been arrested at least 17 times for killing, but he was always lucky to prove his innocence as self defense and was released every time. The last time he killed was when he was over 90 years old. He nearly went to jail for that.

it is taken from http://home.netvigator.com/~kimfung1/tatang1.htm

The TMAs idea of a self-defense situation- you except a challenge from staggering drunk at a bar or party, or you are working the doors and have to kick someone out of the club. The reality guys think of some seasoned criminal who picks you as a target, approaches, and attacks when the time and place is right for him, when he believes he has the advantage over you and he believes he will be successful.

No, no, no... it doesn't work that way in South East Asia, the TMA artist gives a present or shakes hand of his ennemy, at the same time he strikes with a small concealed knive under the extended arm in the armpit, his ennemy can't see anything and dies... this is just one of the few tricks you learn in good TMA training.

The TMA attacker squares off, postures and everyone knows a fight is about to begin, and the TMA guys believe the fight will be like the sparring he does in training. The reality guys know that attacks are often ambushes or surprise committed when the time and place is right for the attacker. The attacker has all the advantages.

Peoples behave like that because they see too many movies.... I don't use opening stances except when I fight with weapons. Preemptive strikes and ambushing are also part of training.... In Manila Johnny Chuimten (famous arnis-cma master) used to meet the late Lao Kim ( Hung Gar kung fu GM) in remote places, the GM would come in advance to ambush him or would attack him randomly during conversation.

The TMA guy assumes (false sense of security) that because he has trained hard and has shown up for every practice that the fight will go according to plan and his techniques will work. The reality guy knows because of the dynamic nature and unpredictability of an attack he cannot afford to assume anything. He knows the best laid plans often falls apart, and there are no guarantees that his techniques will work, and therefore he cannot always rely solely on techniques alone.

TMAs are based on principles not techniques, in Wing Chun and silat for instance you don't really worry if the first strike misses as other will follow and you learn how to react....

The TMA’s attacker uses his fists, and his friends generally do not come to his rescue. The Realty BG is armed with a knife, a club, or a gun, and his friends are always happy to jump in against him.

In the Philippines-Indonesia mas are taught in brootherhoods.... if brothers are around they will help you.... if you get killed they will hunt the killer. Nearly every TMArtist has weapons... anyway weapons are everywher, even a ballpens is a weapon....

The TMA attacker is upset because his girl friend just broke up with him or he caught you looking at his girl friend. The reality guy’s attacker is a guy who has just been released form prison who is incredibly mean and tough. He has no fear of you or the law, and is intent, determined and capable of hurting or even killing you.

This is irrelevant in thirld world countries..... it is a poor idea to look at somebody's wife in those places if you enjoy living. Peoples there don't need to have been in prison to be mean and tough. If you grew up in a shantytown chances are you are tough.

Many TMAs do not teach real world appropriate weapons and tend to rely on their hands and feet to fight. The reality guys know that you never fight as well in a real situation as you do in training (many things can go wrong or fall apart) so they are strongly encouraged to learn and carry real world appropriate weapons.

Well knives, machettes, sticks, projectiles and sometimes guns are part of arnis and silat training....

The TMAs weapons training are an adjunct or are secondary, they spend far less time on weapons then they do on empty hand training. The reality guys give weapons a much higher priority and spend double or even triple the time training street appropriate weapons than many TMA schools do.

Weapons are of primary importance in silat and arnis.....

[darrianation]

I’m starting this thread because I see a large and general misconception about Traditional martial arts VS. Modern reality based self-defense systems. I here people asking "which martial art should I take for self-defense"? So, because I have some experience in both TMAs and RBSD Thought I would comment.

I was Traditionally trained in Karate, as well as other sport and TMA systems about 18 years in all. I later made the switch to combatives and reality based martial arts, and now I teach reality-based self-defense. So here are some of the comparisons that I see. This is going to be a long one, sorry.

Why is it that when discussing the effectiveness of the TMAs (rather it’s kung-fu, karate, TKD, etc) the main topic seems to be centered on techniques? What really gets me is their over inflated view of the effectiveness of their techniques. Time and time again they fail to recognize that the majority of effective techniques are almost always universal to all systems and are usually the most basic techniques in their system. Also these basic yet effective techniques only make up a small percentage of the overall number of techniques in their systems.

Traditional martial arts do not lack techniques; in fact they have an abundance of techniques more than one really needs to defend themselves. Are techniques the most important thing to learn for self-defense?

First, from the reality-based point of view there is a tiered system based on:
1) Knowledge
2) Prevention
3) Awareness
4) Avoidance
5) De-escalation
6) Physical confrontation

When it comes to the physical confrontation there are three main categories to consider. The foremost important is Mindset (killer instinct), The ability to deal effectively with fear, stress, and adrenalin, while executing a determined, aggressive, and tenacious offensive. This by far is more important than which techniques you have or how many techniques you know.

Next comes the physical attributes, this means developing and improving things like strength, speed, power, hand eye coordination, balance, timing, conditioning, flexibility, resistance to pain and injury, and overall athletic ability.

Next are the techniques with and without weapons, and when I say techniques I mean functional techniques. If all you have are techniques (and are not armed) you will most likely loose to a guy with superior mental/psychological attributes. The same results are likely to come if you are fighting a guy who just plain out classes you with his size, strength, speed, athletic ability, physical toughness, and etc.

You need all three, but the techniques although important, are the least important of the three. Many Classical systems are good at teaching technique, some are also good at developing their students physical attributes, but very few are good at developing the most important part, the mental/psychological attributes of their students.

Many classical systems also use inefficient methods of teaching, not that the student cannot become proficient or effective at some point, it just takes a lot longer than it needs too. Classical systems turn out a lot of students with proficient technical skills but the percentage of functional and effective fighters (street) is far lower.

This impractical teaching takes form in the guise of Kata/forms, bunkai, dead drills, pre-arranged drills, cooperative or predictable drills, tag like sparring- Light contact only, limited contact like as in no striking the face or below the waist, or point sparring. One dimensional sparring, sparring that only occurs in one range like with only stand up striking (punches and kicks), or ground fighting only. I call this type of sparring, dueling. Dueling can be counter productive in training and is dangerous in a real fight. A true but unfortunate fact of martial arts training is the more modes of safety placed in drills and sparring the more artificial and unrealistic the training.

An example of some predictable (or scripted) training:

1) Attackers line up on the right. Attackers stepping forward executes a right cross, the defender does a high block and counters with a right cross.
2) Knife in hand attacker steps forward with a forward thrust, defender steps to the side parries the knife hand and does fill in the______ blank move.
3) Attacker attacks with a club using an overhead swinging motion, defender steps in and executes a throw.

Even at hard fast speeds these are still predictable, it is still scripted, it is still artificial, and it is still unrealistic.

The advent of the forward thinkers such as Fairbairn, Applegate, Styers, Has really changed the way we think about self-defense and H2H combat. Later guys like Bruce Lee, and Jeff cooper came along introducing new ideas and changing the way people think about real world violence and self-defense. Today we have a whole new generation of Martial artists that think forward and outside the box like Kelly McCann, Martin Gataca, Payton Quinn, Jim Wagner, Carl Cestari, Sammy Franco, Rich Dimitri, and Geoff Thompson

Many of these guys as well as others like Darren Lauer, Bruce Siddle and Dr. Hal Breedlove, LT. Col Grossman and many others have performed extensive research, experimented, observed, and compared real life experiences. They analyzed every phase of the attack. They analyzed the criminals who are committing the attacks; they also have analyzed the victims to establish why they were chosen to be victims and how they responded. They looked at how people are trained, and how the body learns; they looked at the most efficient ways of teaching and learning physical and psychological skills, or in other words athletic performance enhancement. They went even further to find out how the body and mind responds to stress, how we are effected by fear and what happens to our ability to make proper decisions, and how our abilities to fight are effected by stress, fear, and adrenalin.

These guys embraced new technologies, they looked into psychology both behavioral and criminal, they looked at the latest studies and practices of sport science and athletic performance and embraced it. They determined what happens in real fights, they learned the “psyche” of fighting; they analyzed the physiological Reponses to different stimuli. Using all this acquired knowledge they have established what works at higher percentages and what doesn’t work, or only works at low percentages. They have found that many things that have been taught in traditional schools (techniques and tactics) just plain don’t work often enough. They have found out why they don’t work (techniques rely on predictability, fear, adrenaline, over complicated techniques/tactics, unrealistic expectations, and etc). In doing so they have debunked many TMAs.

Through a thorough study of criminology, who a criminal chooses as a victim and why, how he approaches and his whole modus operandi we can make better decisions that can keep us out of trouble in the first place, or how to appropriately respond if we find ourselves in trouble through awareness training, de-escalation, and finely the physical techniques and tactics that will give us the highest rates of success. The main teaching of the reality guys is this, problem solving, critical thinking, and decision-making, and psychological attributes. The majority of classical schools do not even enter into this very important part of training.

And as far as the techniques go, through research, study, experimentation, and real world experiences we have found that many of the so called fine motor skilled techniques simply fail when faced with stress, fear and adrenalin. The techniques that have the highest success rates are those that are gross motor skilled, offensive in nature, universal techniques (ones that work against a wide variety of attacks), and techniques that take into account the survival stress reaction and incorporate startle and flinch mechanisms into their techniques.

The biggest differences between modern reality based martial systems and the TMAs are not necessarily the techniques but the type of training and the training methods used are very different.

Other differences between the TMAs and reality based self-defense.

The TMAs idea of a self-defense situation- you except a challenge from staggering drunk at a bar or party, or you are working the doors and have to kick someone out of the club. The reality guys think of some seasoned criminal who picks you as a target, approaches, and attacks when the time and place is right for him, when he believes he has the advantage over you and he believes he will be successful.

The TMA attacker squares off, postures and everyone knows a fight is about to begin, and the TMA guys believe the fight will be like the sparring he does in training. The reality guys know that attacks are often ambushes or surprise committed when the time and place is right for the attacker. The attacker has all the advantages.

The TMA guy assumes (false sense of security) that because he has trained hard and has shown up for every practice that the fight will go according to plan and his techniques will work. The reality guy knows because of the dynamic nature and unpredictability of an attack he cannot afford to assume anything. He knows the best laid plans often falls apart, and there are no guarantees that his techniques will work, and therefore he cannot always rely solely on techniques alone.

* Or in other words what you lack in technical precision, you make up for with determination, tenacity and or weapons.

The TMA’s attacker uses his fists, and his friends generally do not come to his rescue. The Realty BG is armed with a knife, a club, or a gun, and his friends are always happy to jump in against him.

The TMA attacker is upset because his girl friend just broke up with him or he caught you looking at his girl friend. The reality guy’s attacker is a guy who has just been released form prison who is incredibly mean and tough. He has no fear of you or the law, and is intent, determined and capable of hurting or even killing you.

Many TMAs do not teach real world appropriate weapons and tend to rely on their hands and feet to fight. The reality guys know that you never fight as well in a real situation as you do in training (many things can go wrong or fall apart) so they are strongly encouraged to learn and carry real world appropriate weapons.

The TMAs weapons training are an adjunct or are secondary, they spend far less time on weapons then they do on empty hand training. The reality guys give weapons a much higher priority and spend double or even triple the time training street appropriate weapons than many TMA schools do.

The complete tactical fighter is proficient with knives, sticks/batons, guns (if applicable), and pepper sprays, improvised weapons, etc, as well as H2H combat.

“The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy. Any training plan that does not serve to build this fundamental aggressiveness is actually Counter productive”. -Matt Larson (SFC- military combatives instructor)