TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[sherwinc]

But in MA we do not just copy, we enhance, in digital a copy is just as good as the original
See Karate as a Digital copy of a Picturefile, which is enhanced using Photoshop, the end result isn't a copy nor is it better or worse, it is different ( maybe better for certain uses but not all)
Now for some Styles/arts we have taken 2 or more sourcepictures to make a new picture ( thus I get pictures of any respected Martial Artists handing me a black Belt)

here in the Philippine, for example in a your Birth Certificate.......

the Original Birth Certificate is honored rather than a Xerox Copied Birth Certificate......

another example......

when you sell your land property to someone else..... the Original Land Title is honered rather than a Xerox Copied Land Title......

another example:
God made man thru is own image.....

God - Original Copy
Man - Xerox Copy

question:
is there any reasons for a man to become superior to God even thou God made man thru his own image????????

since:
KungFu - Original Copy
Karate - a Xerox Copy
TaeKwonDo - another Xerox Copy from a Xerox Copied Source

[Toudiyama[NL]]

in a Xerox Copier, Selex Copier, etc.....
KungFu is the ORIGINAL COPY and the main source.... while Karate and Tae Kwon Do is the RE-COPY only..........

so, ORIGINAL is always the best...... than a RE-COPY....

But in MA we do not just copy, we enhance, in digital a copy is just as good as the original
See Karate as a Digital copy of a Picturefile, which is enhanced using Photoshop, the end result isn't a copy nor is it better or worse, it is different ( maybe better for certain uses but not all)
Now for some Styles/arts we have taken 2 or more sourcepictures to make a new picture ( thus I get pictures of any respected Martial Artists handing me a black Belt)

TKD has a base of Shotokan Karate which the koreans won't admid to, this is the all Kata no Bunkai or Kumite Shotokan from before WW II, this is watered down Karate At best.

BTW it is mainly Naha-te that has clearly traceble roots in Wu xi quan/Ngo cho kun, I can't say where the roots of Shuri-te lie

Very few styles are a only a copy of another style, if they are, the main reason that it is another "style" is because the founder of it wasn't allowed to use the name of the original style, usualy because they were considered NOT to be capable enough
The other reason is greed and hunger for Power

[sherwinc]

Yes, karate definitely came from kung fu, but I wasn't saying karate is superior to kung fu arts (though to some I think it is). As for TKD, to me, karate and taekwondo are the exact same thing, just done a bit differently.

If you study kung fu and karate, they can be close or very different, depending on the kung fu you train, but if you train karate and TKD, you basically are doing the same stuff, just with different positions. Karate and TKD have the same strikes, kicks, punches, blocks, etc...

very true...........

[Broadsword2004]

Yes, karate definitely came from kung fu, but I wasn't saying karate is superior to kung fu arts (though to some I think it is). As for TKD, to me, karate and taekwondo are the exact same thing, just done a bit differently.

If you study kung fu and karate, they can be close or very different, depending on the kung fu you train, but if you train karate and TKD, you basically are doing the same stuff, just with different positions. Karate and TKD have the same strikes, kicks, punches, blocks, etc...

[sherwinc]

Hey Sherwinc, what do you mean "karate is not good in a streetfight" and "worst of all is the tae kwon do!?" sheesh, karate is very effective for plain old bare-knuckle stuff (provided the person is a "real" karateka and not one of these phony-balonies); karate also utilizes both standup and groundfighting techniques. Sheesh, if you get hit by a good karate person with a kick or a punch, it is no laughing matter.

As for TKD, that is like the same as karate. Remember, a kick is a kick. Unless you are doing a jump spin kick or something, getting wacked by the forceful kick of someone else's leg is gonna hurt. And a punch is a punch. Both karate and taekwondo deliver their kicks fairly well.

The only time a karate person may end up in trouble in a streetfight is if they are against a person who is a better martial artist then they are (which is unlikely I think if they train hard), or if the person has a weapon. and even then, it still depends. John Bluming, a karateka of Mas Oyama, was in a streetfight where the guy pulled a knife and he just knocked it right out of the guy's hand (though it was a small knife); also, he was in a fight where a guy wacked him right in the ankle with a crowbar or something, upon which he punched the guy in the side of the head and knocked off his ear because his knuckles were so hardened up and he was mad about being hit.

Karate alone won't make one into a full-ranged fighter, but it will give very solid skills in punching, striking, kicking, and grappling.

because plenty of the members here under-estimated the Traditional Martial Arts (TMA).....

in Traditional Martial Arts - KungFu is the main source.......

Karate came from KungFu....
Tae Kwon Do came from Karate also cause their Poomse #1 and Kihon Kata #1 looks like the same...... so, karate is superior to tae kwon do.....

Note:

in a Xerox Copier, Selex Copier, etc.....
KungFu is the ORIGINAL COPY and the main source.... while Karate and Tae Kwon Do is the RE-COPY only..........

so, ORIGINAL is always the best...... than a RE-COPY....

[Broadsword2004]

Hey Sherwinc, what do you mean "karate is not good in a streetfight" and "worst of all is the tae kwon do!?" sheesh, karate is very effective for plain old bare-knuckle stuff (provided the person is a "real" karateka and not one of these phony-balonies); karate also utilizes both standup and groundfighting techniques. Sheesh, if you get hit by a good karate person with a kick or a punch, it is no laughing matter.

As for TKD, that is like the same as karate. Remember, a kick is a kick. Unless you are doing a jump spin kick or something, getting wacked by the forceful kick of someone else's leg is gonna hurt. And a punch is a punch. Both karate and taekwondo deliver their kicks fairly well.

The only time a karate person may end up in trouble in a streetfight is if they are against a person who is a better martial artist then they are (which is unlikely I think if they train hard), or if the person has a weapon. and even then, it still depends. John Bluming, a karateka of Mas Oyama, was in a streetfight where the guy pulled a knife and he just knocked it right out of the guy's hand (though it was a small knife); also, he was in a fight where a guy wacked him right in the ankle with a crowbar or something, upon which he punched the guy in the side of the head and knocked off his ear because his knuckles were so hardened up and he was mad about being hit.

Karate alone won't make one into a full-ranged fighter, but it will give very solid skills in punching, striking, kicking, and grappling.

[sherwinc]

[QUOTE=konghan]

here is a good example:

if this Ang Li Sing knows 200 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, he teach it to my kungfu instructor......

then my KungFu instructor knows at least 100 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, he teach it to us........

then i know only 55 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun, then i'll teach it to my selected students of mine.....

example if my best students only knows 25 alphabets of Chi Dian Bun......

Note:
so you see?????? KungFu begins to deteriorate while passing the art to his students..... since we are only human, the student cant get all our kungfu knowledge.......

Note:
now, if you compare it to Muay Thai, Western Boxing, etc..... these arts BEFORE and till NOW, they are still the same (still 6 hand alphabets) no deterioration....... since the students of these arts can easily study and can easily get all of the alphabets since it is easy to learn and easy to ______ .

Note:
the thing that really impressed me with this KungFu even thou i am a solid 100% Filipino..... is that, i cant even hit my KungFu instructor even just once i cant hit him even thou how advanced forcefull hand combinations i did..... and why is it that when we spar with my non-kungfu sparring partner (particularly Karate and Tae Kwon Do) the ratio of hits is 2:22

so i am really convinced with the Non-commercialized KungFu Arts.....

Note:
seriously speaking, the more techniques you learn and mastered it..... the more you have the advantages..... just be sure that all of your hand and feet combinations are not telegraphed to the opponents eye......

but still i cant hit my kungfu instructor.....

[AlexJitsu]

Hey, Hsing Yi Ch'uan is extremely effective and it's a TMA. It's based on principles and it was taught to the Chinese military in the 1920s. What else do you need?

[konghan]

'ADOPT" I think that's the key word. Traditional kung fu have adopted to the need's of today's people. Unfortunately it adopted to become soft & in some degree less effective in real self defense situation.

The thing is, the goverment no longer fears martial art schools & martial fighters have little influence or effect on the political stability of a nation. becuase of modern method of self defense and that is the use of guns.

Speaking about third world countries like the Philippines, I had an aquaintance once during the 70's he was a good kung fu fighter always get into street fighting against street toughies & bullies.

His kung fu background was hung gar from Hong Sing Club. For those who are from the Philippines & were around during the 70's would know what I'm talking about.

His nickname was 'Tang Lung Chua' ( Tang Lung from the movie Way of the Dragon staring Bruce Lee ). He even fought in the same mix martial art tournament that I fought at he was under the middle weight category.

He died, from a hailed of bullets from a group of crooked cops at the alley of Zacateros St., Ongpin Manila City.

He refused to give up becuase the cops were trying to extort money he fought the first cop then more cops showed up ( usual cop respond superior man power & fire power ). He dare the cops to come & fight him none would want to so they open fire with M-16 ( standard weapon for cops there ) then they planted evidence of marujuana in his dead body.

Many what Krys have said about TMA in third world countries are true, they are useful & training is different there from the develop countries.

Try living in Malaysia or Indonesia where racial tension is sometimes high among ethnic chinese & locals. And the use of machette is a standand weapon. one would not be suprised to see a group of local ethnic chinese armed with traditional chinese weapons ( not the soft wu shu weaponss ) during those riots.

[jcmack]

I agree on some of what was said. Unfortunately, all traditional martial arts cannot be grouped together and assumed to be the same. Traditional just means that they go way back. Some systems were meant for self defense, and some were meant for war. There is a difference. The only thing that has changed in the past 100 years are the weapons, and in some unfortunate situations the training methods. The mark of a good martial art is its ability to change and adapt with the times.

Toshituga Takamatsu (whom I'm sure none of you are familiar with) once said that to prepare to fight in war, you must train in the dojo as if your life is at stake. Because it is.

Many traditional martial arts don't train the way they did many years ago. They have been commercialized$$$$ so that you see 12 year olds running around with blackbelts claiming to be masters of their martial art. It is a sad thing indeed for traditional arts that seems to give them all a bad name.

[jubaji]

Karate taught in a local club is a little different from the real thing in Okinawa.

.........................
Why?

[konghan]

TMA is, was & has always been reality base fighting. Not only do they train you to survive agianst human attackers but against from wild beast & animal predetors.

But everything has change now, life now adays is no longer as tough as it was during the martial art years. Now we got 911, we got guns, we got cars, we got cell phone, law enforcement is way much better.

What today's reality base fighting is about is teaching the easy & short cut way or it is another water down system of self defense.

All these have always been part of kung fu.
1) Knowledge = know your enemy
2) Prevention = have obstacles in your home against theives & robbers
3) Awareness = know your sorrunding
4) Avoidance = stay away from dark alleys
5) De-escalation = talk your way out, offer peace
6) Physical confrontation = use every necessary force fight for your dear life, show no mercy, be brave, be fierce, be vicious, be tough, be strong & be honorable.

It is only now in our modern times that many "scholars" are claiming that they know everything base on what they have researched & studied on laborotories , test experiments, victims of crimes as well as dangerouse offenders habits & character to say that what they have discover is the right thing, but what they have discover has always been there and the ' none productive TMA" are where they are now becuase of what society of economics have done by taking over & dictating what is real TMA training.

[Uncle Corny]

someone attack sherwinc with a knife to prove his theory.

[krys]

Sorry I quickly get angry and overeact when I feel fmas are discredited, must come from my spanish-sicilian roots ....

I wonder if it has anything at all to do with the Spanish influences on Kali that makes it a good blend with RBSD?

The Illustrissimo style has a lot of spanish influence, the late GM actually learned much of his trade from a spaniard. There is more linear-circular footwork in this style than in many other Arnis systems, a lot of spanish martial fencing kind of strikes too....

QUOTE]Sign me up![/QUOTE]
Wanna join us ? . I think some guys teach this art also in the USA.

I think Arnis qualifies under techniques, but RBSD isn’t just about physical fighting techniques. Even in Arnis we never delved into how to conduct a threat assessment or how to put together a home, car, or a personal (everyday) security plan. We did not learn about criminal behavior and how to recognize danger before it became obvious (although I believe now days many instructors are beginning to teach some of these things). Now, granted if you grew up in the mean streets of Manila or east LA you would naturally develop a heighten sense of awareness and you know intuitively when something isn’t right, same with battle experienced soldiers or civilians living in warring regions. However some people need to be taught this plus RBSD takes it even further actually delving into the criminal mind as well as bringing together many sciences to make us a harder target (less desirable victim) as well as better more ferocious fighters in a faster amount of time (at least that’s the goal).

Arnis is principles based.... Silat and Arnis fighters who have seen action will teach their pupils awareness and such things. That's why I prefer to learn from men who have been in the military-mercenary-security business or those lived in rough environments...
I had a basic knowledge of those things (grew up in a not so nice neighbourhood) and learned a lot more when I started traveling to SEA with a friend (I really did many stupid things there, but I was lucky and understood when it was time to run).

[Ikken Hisatsu]

if someone attacks you with a knife and you have nothing, chances are you're fucked no matter what "alphabet" you know.