TMAs VS. Reality based self-defense

[krys]

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china.

Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines are also good places to learn chinese martial arts.
I've seen some good CMAs in Malaysia and the Philippines: Sao Lim Athletic association in Penang, Wuqui and other familly stuff too in eastern Malaysia. Beng Kiam NCK in the Philippines. The book "The Fighting arts of Indonesia" by Don Draeger also describes Kuntao and other CMAs in Indonesia.

[chris davis 200]

Thankyou for the responce darrianation,

The experience base you cover is impressive but heavily focused in Karate and Karate like Martial arts. I have no problem with Karate but do not really think it is the benchmark by which all TMA styles, schools and systems should be judged.

I do not make excusses for many TMA's but also try to explain that many many Modern arts including those taught at the very big organisations hold less ability to produce profficient fighters.

Often we see schools where people attack with a karate like punch hold their hand out until 4 or five strikes have hit - having apparantly no effect on the attacker, then 2 or three locks are applied!! This style of training i have NEVER i repeat NEVER found in Japanese Koryu martial arts or traditional internal chinese systems. I have however found this style in arts like Karate, modern western Ju Jutsu, taekwondo etc. These are problems with the styles not their traditional background.

In all the TMA's i practice (although i hate using that term) we are encouraged to be instinctive, creative and clever. Not robots walking up and down a dojo doing straight punches.

You have a very good argument for some traditional systems - but i must say that it is only some. Thankyou for the interesting insights.

Ref Shaolin:

the Shaolin temple is now just a tourist trap by the chinese government - anybody that believes the boxing styles located in or even mainly around the temple, are delluding themselves unfortunatley. Most of the Top chinese boxers are hidden away or moved to taiwan.

Even chen family village is now a tourist trap allong with the taoist Conplex at Wu Dang mountain.

My teacher says the only way to find REAL chinese martial arts is to either go to Taiwan, or get seriously off the beaten track in mainland china. He has travelled EXTENSIVELY in china and i take his word for it.

Cheers
chris

[krys]

This is what they do at the Shaolin temple, and at most Wushu schools.

Do they really still practice fighting at the shaolin temple? Which shaolin temple? I don't want to sound offensive but I heard many bad stories abound training in those temples.

Modern wushu is plain BS. Honestly I've met only one reasonably good (modern) wushu fighter in my whole life, even their forms suck. The reason was he'd done a lot of savate....

Many wushu instructors are former dancers, actually KF gets a bad reputation because of wushu. When peoples see modern wushu they think it is KF.

[AlexJitsu]

Darrianation, people who are serious about Kung fu (for fighting) do San Shou for their sparring training. This is what they do at the Shaolin temple, and at most Wushu schools.

If TMAs were trained as good as San Shou is, they would kick ass.

[darrianation]

Konghan,

I am not sure what contradictions you are talking about, but I can tell you there are plenty of contradictions within myself and the MA world.

I have been offered security jobs in Iraq, for pretty good money, but my career and family are more important to me right now than the money. All those jobs I have been contacted about would mean a year in country. Not what I want to do right now in my life. As far as mercenary work, forget it, again to much time away from home. I did spend about a year working security detail for this businessman out of Miami made three tips to Honduras, a trip to panama with him,. I have also worked for others and made trips to Malaysia and a few other places. I have also been involved in humanitarian missions in the Balkans several times. The security business has picked up considerably since 911 but I haven’t had much interest in getting active over seas. I do still dabble in it a little. I am a paid (not much) consultant for a personal and corporate security group out of Phoenix, which is half owned by my cousin. I have written all of their policy and procedures manual for them as well as written their protocols, I have also done this for a company out of San Diego.

As far as what I think of how good of a fighter I am? Hmmmm…I am the kind of guy that doesn’t like to assume anything, so, I don’t assume I can beat anybody, nor do I assume anyone can beat me. Also I am armed all the time, so if someone can beat me, well, I am covered.


Krys

I also like San Shou, I think it’s great. If there were a school near me I would sign up. If you do Arnis and San shou than your awesome. I would hate to meet you in a dark alley. But the WC……Ich.

Jcmack,

All of you guys bring up some good points. As far as me lumping all the TMAs together, guess I tend to do that to often, sorry, but then again if the shoe fits……But if it doeasn’t then you have no need to be offended.

Anyway there is no magic answer or perfect system, all have frailties and flaws, but some are definitely better than others. Most of the problems lies in the structure of the style and the politics of the system that’s why we see so many badly run MAs.

Maybe we should be talking about what makes a good system, and what constitutes a bad one. But then again we probably will be on different sides of debate on that one too. Instead maybe we need to look at this stuff differently. I don’t know if you will agree but I think you are right about the TMAs being for a different breed of men than what we see today in many people. Back in the day Martial artists would work all day, take care of family business , then stay up training most the night. It was Toudy who said that it’s all about the amount of hours you put into it. Didn’t Funakoshi who performed only one kate and practiced it for 3 years often praticing until he collapsed. Or was it 3 katas 1 year. Hmmm….I realy don’t want to run down the stairs and find my Funkoshi book.

Anyway my point is people have families, they have careers, they have friends, and they have hobbies. Our lives are structured so we really don’t have all the time necessary to put into it, our lives are just to busy. So, the TMAs are not meant for us. They are meant for those who are innately mentally and physically suprior and are amazingly self-motivated to spend 40hrs a week training, as well as 40hrs a week at their jobs and still spend time with their kids. These kind of folks are some kind of force to reckoned with. These guys are not the majority of us.

So, what we need is another system for those in the non-elite group, or for us more common folk the guys with the wives, the kids and the careers who can’t afford to train 30-40 hours a week. That’s what we do in the RBSD, we can train the common folk to be every bit as proficient and effective as those old breed of TMA guys, but we can do it in much faster time. This is called efficiency.

[jcmack]

Dar,

I hate always seeming to be at odds with you. However, you still seem to be grouping all TMAs together and making a judgement on all of them. Most are watered down. Most are one sided. If not, you would have millions of little war machines running around the world. It would be either a really dangerous place, or a really safe place depending on how you look at it. There are certain traditional systems however that do train to survive and thrive in any situation.

Modern martial arts seem to be watered down for protection. You have so many martial artists who train these days. If a martial artist trains very hard like they did in ancient times, who would want to be part of a dojo or training group? It took a special person to do it then. War was a way of life at that time. Now it doesn't impact our everyday lives (at least most people don't realize it anyway). Most people don't see the neccessity of training that way anymore. Once again, who would train that way now? Not many. So, to preserve the art and to keep cash flow, the arts have been watered down over time. They have become less lethal. They no longer train with the idea of killing or totally incapacitating your opponent as the ultimate end. Tournaments have become a way of life in many TDAs. Unfortunately, tourneys have too many rules to simulate real fights and battles. The way you train is the way you fight.

In this way, I agree with you. However, not all TMAs do this. A few still train very hard. Watered down sparring is kept to a minimum. Training is rougher, with the ultimate goal in mind of totally incapacitating or destroying your opponents. It is these few systems that are the most deadly. They train/program the mind and the body to destroy the opponent. They also have a larger array of techniques to learn from. This goal of the techniques is not as you are thinking. This wide array of techniques is not there to be memorized. They are there to learn how your body and the opponents body works. The ultimate goal is to not use techniques, but rather create your own on the fly using ideas you have learned about how you and your opponents bodies work. The only downside I see to this is that it takes more time to develop this level of ability.

[krys]

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring.

There are fighting classes in the WC school I study. My WC instructor is actually a former western boxing champion (army) and the students who come to those classes fight full contact....there isn't anything prearanged ...... Throws and grapling are unfortunately not allowed yet because we don't have any mats for insurance reasons (this will change the day we get a full time place), but anything goes and we don't use headgear.

It took me years to locate a good KF instructor in Europe and I have to travel 50 miles to train with him... all the other WC classes I've seen before were plain ..... Honestly I'd say in all those years I've met very few WC practitioners who are good at fighting but this is because either they are not taking the art seriously (tourists, chikung-hippies, ego suc..rs) or because they were badly taught.... WC has been mostly promoted by peoples who just want to make the bucks.

[konghan]

Chris,

I began my Martial arts training in 1977, and since this time I have trained in the TMAs of Karate, Chinese kenpo, TKD (just a little),and Arnis (*Arnis the most practical of the four). I have also studied martial sport systems such as Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, a little judo, and a little submission wrestling as well as ROSS.(more closely related to RBSD) I have also studied military combatives, civilian combatives, RBSD, as well as counter terrorism tactics.

I have trained in a TMA art in 6 states, and 3 countries including Japan for 6 weeks. I have been into and watched or participated in many other MA schools including Kung Fu systems. I have trained under a 6th dan who was born and raised in Japan and studied/taught in Japan for 20 years before coming to the U.S.I studied approx 3.5 years under him and all we did was the same format every day- warm up/stretch, floor work, kata, spar. The sparring was the one dimensional tag sparring of witch I described earlier.

I studied under a 5th dan in Okinawa Karate who had been doing it for 25 years and went to Okinawa for a year to study. Although she was incredibly smart, knowledgeable, and creative we did nothing but the usual, floor work, kata, bunki, pre-determined attacks and tag style sparring. Only on occasion did we break from that format.

I studied under another 5th degree black who had trained in Okinawa, and went to China for three years to study MAs and Chinese medicine and had made several trips to the shaolin temple. Under him we never even sparred, we would do kata all session long with maybe some pre-arranged and per-determined drills thrown in. We would spend 30 minutes (or longer) performing a single kata because he was such a perfectionist he would go down the line correcting everyone with each move. It was ridicules. And no one in that class could fight worth a damn. I soon found another place to study, but once again I had to change styles.

Are all these fake commercialized MAs? I think there is some truth to that theory but I think that every time someone sees, or exposes a problem with a martial art they are quick turn to the “it’s fake or commercialized” argument. The above instructors as well as their students who have been with them for several years had no clue of the inefficient methods of teaching they were doing and of course neither did I at the time.

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring. They also did forms and pre-arranged sparring with non-real-world-appropriate weapons. It may have looked different but make no mistake it was essentially functionally the same. I have also had friends who studied these arts and after going with them to training sessions and having long conversations only confirmed what I have been saying.

Unfortunately I have met, studied with, and taught many students who had several years in one of these MAs and still could not really fight well. Some of them might have been good at tournament fighting but not real fighting.

I think it’s incorrect for Konghan s to say that RBSD is a short cut I think that the TMAs is the long cut. RBSD builds incredibly skilled and effective fighters in a much faster time while maintaining a high quality of instruction. Honestly I think many TMA guys make these kind of arguments because they are struggling to argue the relevancy of their systems and really don’t realize that what they have been taught for so many years is built upon a some faulty assumptions, and bad science. They, just like me once upon a time, just don’t know any better, or they are simply, but understandably in denial.

You have a very impressive resume, many TMA are not struggling or arguing the relevancy of their systems but it is more of people like yourself who cannot find answer even in yourself.

Base on what you are pointing out between what you consider as TMA & real fighting system all that you have been saying are contradicting on what you are trying to seek.

Real fighting system, how can a victim react or know what to do if they donot know what their attacker is about to do? just like what you have pointed out. A person comes at you with a kitchen knife, what do you do?

Or, lets' say you live in Bhagdad what percussion do you take to protect yourself?

Even in the use of firearm one must have proper training. what kind of training must they have?, proper posture as to how to hold & aim a gun. How to quickdraw, how not to reload, knowing what type of bullet your weapon need & etc. but the most important part HAVING THE GUTS TO OPEN FIRE ON A HUMAN BEING.

And to be a real good "master" gunman takes years of training as well.

I believe that the real fighting system that you are seeking can only be found in the jungles of Africa or any remote areas away from modernization.

Fighting in real combat means using real weapons no hold bar to the death just like the ancient times which was what it use to be.

Then, may I suggest join the mercenaries & fight in those many third world countries mini wars & there you might find your answer.

Base on what you have learn so far how good a fighter are you now? how good must you be?

[krys]

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change

Good KF is about principles not techniques.... understanding the principles and getting a good control over yout body allows you to cope with any situation....

[jubaji]

Hey, Hsing Yi Ch'uan is extremely effective and it's a TMA. It's based on principles and it was taught to the Chinese military in the 1920s. What else do you need?

Considering what became of the Chinese military of the 1920's, that's not saying much.

[darrianation]

Chris,

I began my Martial arts training in 1977, and since this time I have trained in the TMAs of Karate, Chinese kenpo, TKD (just a little),and Arnis (*Arnis the most practical of the four). I have also studied martial sport systems such as Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, a little judo, and a little submission wrestling as well as ROSS.(more closely related to RBSD) I have also studied military combatives, civilian combatives, RBSD, as well as counter terrorism tactics.

I have trained in a TMA art in 6 states, and 3 countries including Japan for 6 weeks. I have been into and watched or participated in many other MA schools including Kung Fu systems. I have trained under a 6th dan who was born and raised in Japan and studied/taught in Japan for 20 years before coming to the U.S.I studied approx 3.5 years under him and all we did was the same format every day- warm up/stretch, floor work, kata, spar. The sparring was the one dimensional tag sparring of witch I described earlier.

I studied under a 5th dan in Okinawa Karate who had been doing it for 25 years and went to Okinawa for a year to study. Although she was incredibly smart, knowledgeable, and creative we did nothing but the usual, floor work, kata, bunki, pre-determined attacks and tag style sparring. Only on occasion did we break from that format.

I studied under another 5th degree black who had trained in Okinawa, and went to China for three years to study MAs and Chinese medicine and had made several trips to the shaolin temple. Under him we never even sparred, we would do kata all session long with maybe some pre-arranged and per-determined drills thrown in. We would spend 30 minutes (or longer) performing a single kata because he was such a perfectionist he would go down the line correcting everyone with each move. It was ridicules. And no one in that class could fight worth a damn. I soon found another place to study, but once again I had to change styles.

Are all these fake commercialized MAs? I think there is some truth to that theory but I think that every time someone sees, or exposes a problem with a martial art they are quick turn to the “it’s fake or commercialized” argument. The above instructors as well as their students who have been with them for several years had no clue of the inefficient methods of teaching they were doing and of course neither did I at the time.

I have been to and watched several KF sessions. Even though their format was different they still did the forms, they still did the pre-arranged drills, the same pre-determined drills and the one-dimensional tag style of sparring. They also did forms and pre-arranged sparring with non-real-world-appropriate weapons. It may have looked different but make no mistake it was essentially functionally the same. I have also had friends who studied these arts and after going with them to training sessions and having long conversations only confirmed what I have been saying.

Unfortunately I have met, studied with, and taught many students who had several years in one of these MAs and still could not really fight well. Some of them might have been good at tournament fighting but not real fighting.

I think it’s incorrect for Konghan s to say that RBSD is a short cut I think that the TMAs is the long cut. RBSD builds incredibly skilled and effective fighters in a much faster time while maintaining a high quality of instruction. Honestly I think many TMA guys make these kind of arguments because they are struggling to argue the relevancy of their systems and really don’t realize that what they have been taught for so many years is built upon a some faulty assumptions, and bad science. They, just like me once upon a time, just don’t know any better, or they are simply, but understandably in denial.

[krys]

.........................
Why?

Well, in Okinawa there are all those pretty big eyed girls jk......

More seriously I think karate is practiced differently in Okinawa than in the local club because:

1) Most karate found in local clubs is Japanese karate and not Okinawanese karate.

2) Okinawanese peoples practice the arts nowadays called karate for centuries, this training became part of their culture and they can show more dedication than the average western student who seldom studies it it for more than self defence or a hobby. They tend to show more patience than many western students who often look for shortcuts and want to learn self defense quickly. This often leads to poor technique and injuries. In my opinion one needs to show some interest in a ma's culture to understand it's principles and respect the traditional training, unfortunately this is seldom the case in the local club.

3) Many instructors wether they went to Okinawa or not didn't see the whole pattern or interpreted wrongly what was taught to them.

[Uncle Corny]

had sherwinc compared kung fu to fried chicken i might have bought it. but no. he had to use xerox machines. for shame.

[chris davis 200]

Hi all

I havnt read all the posts but i see a Glaring and extremely obvious flaw in your argument.

A) you are grouping all 'so called' traditional martial arts with the Karate system you practiced.

B) Many traditional martial arts are extremely effective fighting systems - lets take Muay thai, Kali, escrima, etc as but a few! You freely admit that they are so where is the line drawn on what is and is not a Traditional Martial art.

Please define traditional Martial Arts so that we can descuss this subject with an idea of where you are coming from.

Last time we spoke about TMA's the guy that started the thread said he ment arts that walk up and down dojos punching air, ones where there were forms, ones where there was pressure points etc. Needless to say he had NEVER seen traditional Martial arts!!

I think that in the west, as was so elliquently pointed out by Krys, there are so so many mc dojo's and modern 'traditional' styles that it is fairly hard to find, let alone comment on the real traditional martial arts with defined and proper lineages!

For example - Ju Jutsu in the uk is mainly based on the style of Robert Clark, with nearly all schools originating with him in some way.

When you bear in mind that there is NO evidence that he ever trained in Ju Jutsu!!!! but actually it is strongly believed that he used 'dirty' judo (by dirty i mean judo mixed with some Karate some kung fu and some aikido) The Largest organisations for Ju Jutsu in the UK are not actually practicing Ju Jutsu! and yet people try to comment on Ju Jutsu!!!!

See my point -

the same is often true in the States with seemingly huge and well founded organisations not actually practicing the traditional methods they claim to use and be masters of!

This is partly the reason i laugh when i see people trying to comment on Traditional Methods. they are very hard to find let alone study for long enough to form an opinion and comment.

I have been very lucky in that i have been able to find some real traditional systems in the UK (but i have to travel along way and use alot of resources to!!) - after going through modern systems and arts - including modern self defence classes and mc dojos.

In my honest opinion - i would have to say that nothing has come close to the traditional arts i now practice, for preperation of mindset, ability to fight, or hardness and intensity of training.

People often think that the advent of modern scientific methods has given modern artists the edge - but if you look at many of the older training methods you will find that the develop the same things as the modern ones - with some additions - including will power, body control etc etc. these things you dont often forge in a Gym!

An interesting summery on the comparison between Karate and Modern combatives none the less.

Kindest regards
chris

[Toudiyama[NL]]

Sherwinc, if you don't read my posts, please do not reply to them, I explained in MA you can't speak of COPY

KF= Original which is fixed and therefore can't evolve or change
Karate=enhanced digital copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations
TKD=analog copy of a partial copy with aditions from other sources as well as onw creations

Although the original source material might have been watered down, this doesn't say anything about what is better

Oh and don't talk god to an atheist, I am no copy of a figment of the imagination