Why I don't practice kung fu anymore

[pstevens]

The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The reason so many kung fu guys forms look good and their fighting sux, is because they invest all their time in their forms and no time is spent on application. So they result to poor kick boxing because they only know a few punches and kicks. It takes a real dedicated individual with amazing skill to be good at both. It's much harder to be a fighter than a good forms person. Most kung fu stylist believe they will somehow become a good fighter, if they learn a lot of forms...yet they never take the time to practice applications.



I don't know why people feel forms are for combat?!?!

Forms were meant to only be a guide and a way to easily remember a set of techniques. There were no video cameras and pictures couldn't show intent or flow, so forms were created to document every technique within a style. As far as stances go stances aren't meant to be used in fighting the same way they are used in training. You would not just stand in a deep horse or cat stance during a fight. You are supposed to transition from stances and when needed for a throw or trip or take down you transition into a horse or arrow or cat stance.


jeff

As I stated in the other thread. In kung-fu, form is NOT the same as application. But in many styles that are effective, form IS ALSO the application.

[jmd161]

Actually, this is my point in regards to the other posts about kung-fu not being a viable self-defense tool. While doing their forms, kung-fu guys look graceful and competent; but when faced with real combat implications, they flail their arms and at best look like kickboxers.

The two actually have nothing to do with each other. The reason so many kung fu guys forms look good and their fighting sux, is because they invest all their time in their forms and no time is spent on application. So they result to poor kick boxing because they only know a few punches and kicks. It takes a real dedicated individual with amazing skill to be good at both. It's much harder to be a fighter than a good forms person. Most kung fu stylist believe they will somehow become a good fighter, if they learn a lot of forms...yet they never take the time to practice applications.

The truth is partly what JadeDragon pointed out. Masters can't teach students how to use the traditional forms for real combat; because even the students understand this simple fact: IT DOESN'T WORK! The stances and traditional movements don't lend themselves to real combat applications. Therefore, the students shy away from them and use the techniques that do work like kickboxing techniques. I've seen the same thing happen in styles of karate that were very traditional. The master would insist on using deep stances and traditional blocks in sparring, but students would revert to what does work; a balanced stance with jabs, crosses, uppercuts and quick roundhouse kicks, etc...

I don't know why people feel forms are for combat?!?!

Forms were meant to only be a guide and a way to easily remember a set of techniques. There were no video cameras and pictures couldn't show intent or flow, so forms were created to document every technique within a style. As far as stances go stances aren't meant to be used in fighting the same way they are used in training. You would not just stand in a deep horse or cat stance during a fight. You are supposed to transition from stances and when needed for a throw or trip or take down you transition into a horse or arrow or cat stance.


jeff

[Ben Grimm]

Application and form aren't always so obvious, but regardless of what style you do, you need to test it under pressure.

[pstevens]

This is not aimed at you so please don't take it as an attack.



The problem lies in that many of the teachers themselves don't know the actual uses of the techniques. So they result to teaching a sloppy kick boxing type sparring. That is why I say it's better to actually learn kick boxing from a trained coach, than half arse kick boxing from a CMA sifu!

You can't teach what you don't know... You can't teach what you've never attempted to use yourself in an actual fight. You can't teach someone to fight, if you haven't fought yourself!


jeff

Actually, this is my point in regards to the other posts about kung-fu not being a viable self-defense tool. While doing their forms, kung-fu guys look graceful and competent; but when faced with real combat implications, they flail their arms and at best look like kickboxers.

The truth is partly what JadeDragon pointed out. Masters can't teach students how to use the traditional forms for real combat; because even the students understand this simple fact: IT DOESN'T WORK! The stances and traditional movements don't lend themselves to real combat applications. Therefore, the students shy away from them and use the techniques that do work like kickboxing techniques. I've seen the same thing happen in styles of karate that were very traditional. The master would insist on using deep stances and traditional blocks in sparring, but students would revert to what does work; a balanced stance with jabs, crosses, uppercuts and quick roundhouse kicks, etc...

[jmd161]

The problem is that teachers don't make the student use the techniques they learn in the forms when they sparr in class. That is why most martial artist sparr like kickboxers.

This is not aimed at you so please don't take it as an attack.



The problem lies in that many of the teachers themselves don't know the actual uses of the techniques. So they result to teaching a sloppy kick boxing type sparring. That is why I say it's better to actually learn kick boxing from a trained coach, than half arse kick boxing from a CMA sifu!

You can't teach what you don't know... You can't teach what you've never attempted to use yourself in an actual fight. You can't teach someone to fight, if you haven't fought yourself!


jeff

[JadeDragon]

The problem is that teachers don't make the student use the techniques they learn in the forms when they sparr in class. That is why most martial artist sparr like kickboxers.

[jmd161]

Perhaps the removal of forms could be the evolution of kungfu that focuses more on application? I know in Judo the Katas are rarely taught anymore and if they are it is simply for traditional belt promotions.

The problem is not the forms!


The problem is in the structure of the schools where the forms are used not as training guides, but more as a tool to money. It's like the deal with belt rankings, it gives you a tool to be able to collect more money to help you benefit off teaching and having your own business.

Many sifu start off with good intentions, but find out good intentions lead to bankruptcy.

Most people who teach kung fu sadly don't do so for the love or tradition of the art, but to try and make money. Which, is why my sifu refuses to open another public school. He doesn't need the money, but he doesn't need the headache associated with running a public martial arts school either.

jeff

[Ben Grimm]

I train using my forms but I also train using drills and so on.

[jmd161]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but it does raise a question. If you're spending very little time on the forms are you still doing traditional kung fu or does it become something else that you've based on traditional methods? Also, we spent a lot of time on the combat applications of the forms, but they were all choreographed drills; it took a long time just to memorize the choreography which didn't help you actually use the techniques.

My sifu is near 60 yrs old, he teaches us exactly how he was taught by his sifu. My sigung learned directly from some of kung fu's best known traditional masters and taught my sifu the way he was taught. So I'd say this is very traditional training. We do forms but not the Mc Dojo way most so called traditional schools do, but the way they were intended. Forms are a guide and a tool to be used when your sifu is not around,not as the basis of the entire style.

We do drills but not choreographed drills. All drills do is teach you how to use a against b and c against d...fights aren't choreographed so choreographed drills are useless in actual fighting. Again this stuff is meant to be a guide not what you base your fighting off..no two people are going to react alike or move alike. You have to work each technique on your own and adjust it so that it works for you.


jeff

[Bjjexpertise@be]

I can appreciate what you're saying, but it does raise a question. If you're spending very little time on the forms are you still doing traditional kung fu or does it become something else that you've based on traditional methods? Also, we spent a lot of time on the combat applications of the forms, but they were all choreographed drills; it took a long time just to memorize the choreography which didn't help you actually use the techniques.

Perhaps the removal of forms could be the evolution of kungfu that focuses more on application? I know in Judo the Katas are rarely taught anymore and if they are it is simply for traditional belt promotions.

[Sagacious Lu]

There is no mystery as to why the majority of kung fu stylist fail in fighting. Many learn kung fu in a controlled designed program, that is not realistic, if you plan on using it in a real situation. Many learn from a teacher that has never fought using the very techniques they are teaching. The basics are very important in anything you do martial arts or otherwise, but how many people actually focus seriously on basics when learning kung fu?

A true kung fu class should not look much different than a MMA class. If you walked into our class you would not think we were training kung fu at all. You won't see much form work, and if you did... you'd see us working the techniques from the form not just doing them as a dance or set of movements. You would see us working from every range even on the ground with actual kung fu, not BJJ/MMA and claiming it is kung fu. You would see us working against BJJ/MMA stylist that also train with us using their BJJ/MMA against our kung fu. We learn from a sifu that has actually fought using his kung fu. We learn from a sifu that has a open mind in learning as much as you can as long as it works in actual combat.

There is so much more, as to why most kung fu is worthless, but it would take a lot more than i'm willing to write about here.

jeff

I can appreciate what you're saying, but it does raise a question. If you're spending very little time on the forms are you still doing traditional kung fu or does it become something else that you've based on traditional methods? Also, we spent a lot of time on the combat applications of the forms, but they were all choreographed drills; it took a long time just to memorize the choreography which didn't help you actually use the techniques.

[jmd161]

There is no mystery as to why the majority of kung fu stylist fail in fighting. Many learn kung fu in a controlled designed program, that is not realistic, if you plan on using it in a real situation. Many learn from a teacher that has never fought using the very techniques they are teaching. The basics are very important in anything you do martial arts or otherwise, but how many people actually focus seriously on basics when learning kung fu?

A true kung fu class should not look much different than a MMA class. If you walked into our class you would not think we were training kung fu at all. You won't see much form work, and if you did... you'd see us working the techniques from the form not just doing them as a dance or set of movements. You would see us working from every range even on the ground with actual kung fu, not BJJ/MMA and claiming it is kung fu. You would see us working against BJJ/MMA stylist that also train with us using their BJJ/MMA against our kung fu. We learn from a sifu that has actually fought using his kung fu. We learn from a sifu that has a open mind in learning as much as you can as long as it works in actual combat.

There is so much more, as to why most kung fu is worthless, but it would take a lot more than i'm willing to write about here.

jeff

[pstevens]

Why is this guy, Troll Virus, such a prick? The point here is quite simple; Sag was unhappy with his kung-fu experience and decided to voice it. No biggy...

Heck, I tried a couple of things before settling on what I do today. The karate I did as a kid is basically useless compared to the MMA I've recently trained. It's all about the delivery system and the person who's motivated to train. Yes, it's a 2-part equation. You need the right delivery system and the the right person/mindset.

So go out and find what works for you, buddy. That's all anyone can do.

[JadeDragon]

The kung fu school that I used to train at was great. The techniques that we practiced could be used for real. They weren't just "fluff" techniques being taught just to teach something. We were also taught the application of the techniques against a resisting opponent. We were taught how, when, and where to apply the technique. For examlple, we would get in a grappling situation and then my teacher would have us stop but keep the position we were in and he would tell us what particular animal technique might best be used. Then we would go back to grappling for a little bit and then he would stop us again and do the same thing. Or he would ask us what technique do we think would work in this situation. We would also practice different types of grabs, chokes, etc.. and demonstrate different techniques on how to escape these situations. My kung fu has never let me down and I've been in a few fights in my day and have bounced at a few bars as well.

[Akira]

Really interesting discussion. Props to the OP and to everyone who replied.

I learned kung fu for years..but one thing I never liked was the kicks, and the defense against low kicks. I now work in BKK as a professional thai boxer and I've seen many kung fu fighters get defeated against muay thai. However, this was with muay thai rules and wearing gloves, so obviously the kung fu fighter was at a disadvantage.

Kung fu has always felt like a more natural way of fighting for me, and I've used it a few times in sparring to defeat muay thai fighters. From what I've experienced, a kung fu fighter just can't handle muay thai kicks, much the same way a muay thai fighter can't handle some of the kung fu holds and grabs.

Each to their own but very interesting discussion. Thanks.