Wing Chunner vs Boxer

[TheSymbol]

One of my targets, Tyrone, hangs out at the Bromley shopping centre was a wing chun exponent. I boxed his face into a mess and he's stopped selling his filth on the streets. This video looks nothing like that instance. I don't believe the so called boxer is really a boxer.

[mellow]

Thanks Ben, I'd at least agree that that's a viable body blow. I don't see how it's "deadly" though; it's a perfectly legal target in boxing, kick boxing, MMA, san shou etc.

Sudden cardiac death by Commotio cordis: role of m...[Cardiovasc Res. 2001] - PubMed Result


NEJM -- An Experimental Model of Sudden Death Due to Low-Energy Chest-Wall Impact (Commotio Cordis)

[Ben Grimm]

I've heard of people going to the hospital because of Commotio cordis. Never stopped me from going for the breastbone if it's open though.

[Sagacious Lu]

Sudden cardiac death by Commotio cordis: role of m...[Cardiovasc Res. 2001] - PubMed Result


NEJM -- An Experimental Model of Sudden Death Due to Low-Energy Chest-Wall Impact (Commotio Cordis)

This is interesting but hardly contradicts my statement. In the test they fired wooden "baseballs" at a precise point on pigs, and even went so far as to time the shots with their heart beat. That means that not only do you have to land your shot in just the right spot you have to time it with their heart beat, which you can't do without taking your opponents pulse. Even if you manage all that it still isn't necessarily a death sentence.
Moving on, the article talks about a miniscule 38 deaths over a 25 year period in BASEBALL players. In addition to being extremely rare apparently it generally happens to children:

This phenomenon is termed commotio cordis and predominantly affects children and adolescents 5 to 15 years of age

We also know that this has never happened to an MMA competitor, and if it has happened in boxing or kick boxing it is extremely rare. Death in the ring is usually caused by massive head trauma, not cardiac arrest. This is a medical curiousity, not a way to kill an adult. I'd like to repeat my earlier statement that there isn't anywhere that you can expect to kill a person with a single unarmed strike, and I'll add that death in a fight is MUCH more likely from a blow to the head than it is from commotio cordis.

[mellow]

This is interesting but hardly contradicts my statement.

Oh, a thousand pardons! I thought that when you said

I don't see how it's "deadly" though; it's a perfectly legal target in boxing, kick boxing, MMA, san shou etc.

that you were genuininely curious about the methodology. I wasn't trying to contradict your statement.

In the test they fired wooden "baseballs" at a precise point on pigs, and even went so far as to time the shots with their heart beat.

That's scientific experimentation for you, very tedious and and detailed. Sometimes I miss those days. . . . . .
If you can't target and hit someone in the middle of their chest with the same force as a baseball going 30 mph then you need to get with your boxing coach. You have some serious work to put in on the focus mitts and heavy bag.

That means that not only do you have to land your shot in just the right spot you have to time it with their heart beat, which you can't do without taking your opponents pulse. Even if you manage all that it still isn't necessarily a death sentence.

Nobody said there was, there are no guarantees.

Moving on, the article talks about a miniscule 38 deaths over a 25 year period in BASEBALL players. In addition to being extremely rare apparently it generally happens to children:

Not as rare as you think. You're looking at one study in one sport where actual impact to the chest is rare. There is a commotio cordis registry that reported 128 death in the last 4 years.

We also know that this has never happened to an MMA competitor, and if it has happened in boxing or kick boxing it is extremely rare. Death in the ring is usually caused by massive head trauma, not cardiac arrest.

Death in any sporting event is rare. There are more deaths from head trauma in horse racing than there are in boxing. Are you going to stop punching to the head now?

I'd like to repeat my earlier statement that there isn't anywhere that you can expect to kill a person with a single unarmed strike,

Once again, there are no guarantees and anything can happen. I don't recall Ben Grimm or anyone else saying that it was an automatic death sentence. I'm sorry that you got suckered in by magical claims of a particular CMA school, but it's time to let go of the bitterness and move on.

and I'll add that death in a fight is MUCH more likely from a blow to the head than it is from commotio cordis.

Death in a sporting event or unarmed confrontation is highly unlikely in any respect.

[Sagacious Lu]

Oh, a thousand pardons! I thought that when you said that you were genuininely curious about the methodology. I wasn't trying to contradict your statement.

I was (and am) genuinely skeptical of the idea that any unarmed strike to the body is lethal.

That's scientific experimentation for you, very tedious and and detailed. Sometimes I miss those days. . . . . .
If you can't target and hit someone in the middle of their chest with the same force as a baseball going 30 mph then you need to get with your boxing coach. You have some serious work to put in on the focus mitts and heavy bag.

Are you trying insinuate that I don't know how to punch? What difference does it make? Even if I could hit like Ernie Shavers no one can count their opponent's pulse in the middle of a fight.

Not as rare as you think. You're looking at one study in one sport where actual impact to the chest is rare. There is a commotio cordis registry that reported 128 death in the last 4 years.

128 deaths in 4 years is incredibly rare. It's even more rare when you consider that (according to the article YOU posted) the victims are mostly children between the ages of 5-15. I'm not a child and I don't train to fight children.

Death in any sporting event is rare.

That's right, that's why it's obvious that you can't kill someone by punching them in the chest.

Are you going to stop punching to the head now?

I guess you weren't paying attention when I agreed that as a target it was a viable body blow, just not a lethal one.

I don't recall Ben Grimm or anyone else saying that it was an automatic death sentence.

No, Ben has been quite rational. He hasn't even said that he believes the strike to be deadly, he just said that that's what one of his teachers told him.

I'm sorry that you got suckered in by magical claims of a particular CMA school, but it's time to let go of the bitterness and move on. Death in a sporting event or unarmed confrontation is highly unlikely in any respect.

Who's bitter? Despite the defensive and vaguely insulting tone of your post you've just agreed with me that there is no reason to expect your opponent to die as a result of a body shot

[mellow]

LOL, man, you are hilarious! All I did was present you with information to show you that it is feasible and you really took it and ran with it. But what can I expect from someone who thinks they know everything already?

Anyway, here's a few more for yah, Emmanuel Stewart!

PUNCH TO CHEST EYED IN BOX DEATH - New York Post

Streetwise: A Boxer's Death - Western Neighborhoods Project - San Francisco History

Never say never!!

[Sagacious Lu]

LOL, man, you are hilarious! All I did was present you with information to show you that it is feasible and you really took it and ran with it. But what can I expect from someone who thinks they know everything already?

Anyway, here's a few more for yah, Emmanuel Stewart!

PUNCH TO CHEST EYED IN BOX DEATH - New York Post

Streetwise: A Boxer's Death - Western Neighborhoods Project - San Francisco History

Never say never!!

Now I just don't understand what your argument is. Yes, commotio cordis is a rare medical phenomenon that occasionally takes the life of athletes; I was well aware of it before I read this thread. What I'm attacking is the idea that one can, as a martial artist, intentionally inflict commotio cordis on one's opponent. The fact that once in a blue moon someone drops dead due to a bizarre and unlucky fluke does not mean that:

"hitting point CV17 is lethal"

Occasionally people get rich by winning the lottery; that fact does not make buying a lottery ticket a viable way to make money.

[mellow]

Now I just don't understand what your argument is.

It's OK, so your a little slower than everybody else. Give it some time to sink in, maybe reread some things.

What I'm attacking is the idea that one can, as a martial artist, intentionally inflict commotio cordis on one's opponent.

You change your argument with every post. Keep trying you will get it right eventually.

CV 17 is lethal

I didn't say it and I don't neccessarily agree with that statement. All I did was provide evidence that it is possible to to die from a blow to the chest. Commotio Cordis is only one mechanism. There are others.

[mellow]

There is a method to Jubs posts. . . . .

On second thought,


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Sagacious Lu]

You change your argument with every post. Keep trying you will get it right eventually.

Actually I've been quite consistant; I objected to the idea that a blow to something called "CV17" or in fact any where on the body was lethal. You brought up commotio cordis and I've made it clear why I don't think it's relevant to MA training. Now you're just attacking me personally because you don't like my point of view but, apparently, can't refute it either.

There are others.

Like what?

[Sagacious Lu]

On second thought,


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

It doesn't work when you do it. Putting on a leather jacket does not make you The Fonz

[mellow]

It doesn't work when you do it. Putting on a leather jacket does not make you The Fonz

Putting together a logical argument doesn't seem to work for you either.

[mellow]

It doesn't work when you do it. Putting on a leather jacket does not make you The Fonz

It saves time, you don't understand much else.

[Sagacious Lu]

Do those posts mean you're done trying to defend teh deadly death strikes?