Technique discussions, pictures and video etc.

[Ben Grimm]

That's OK, I don't mind waiting for the information. If you can post it, I'll be willing to look at it and offer my criticism of the technique. Just don't take it personally.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

After a submission hold (joint lock or choke) there is no escape. All effective escapes taught involve either avoiding the situation completely or blocking the move halfway before it is completely sunken in. If it was possible to escape from a submission hold after it is fully in (and properly applied) then there'd be no point in even learning it, let alone basing numerous sports and martial arts in it. It's the same principle as blocking a punch, you can't block a punch after it makes contact with your face. I think we can all agree that teaching a block that is to be used after a punch makes contact with your face is a little unrealistic .

[Ben Grimm]

Aargh! I was waiting for TigerClown's response! Is he one of your clowns that couldn't answer for himself, so you had to answer for him?

[-FIGJAM-]

Aargh! I was waiting for TigerClown's response! Is he one of your clowns that couldn't answer for himself, so you had to answer for him?

who was that directed at?

[Tant01]

Juji gatame

Before I show an escape is this the exact technique you are talking about?

YouTube - Juji gatame - Arm bar - from the guard

Or this one?

YouTube - Judo - Jujigatame

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These are all variations of the same (elbow) lock...

[bunnyfufuman]

His escape seems similar to one that i have been taught and how i sort of escape a RNC from the ground. Ill try and give you a picture of how i escape, which has worked well for me in the past.

When they lock it on, first thing i do is roll so that their elbow is touching the matt.
Next i try and turn my neck and get my chin in the little gap that is always at the elbow. I say always because that is what i have been taught. Need to weasel your chin in their a bit and it basically stops you from chocking out but your head does get squeezed and that can hurt a bit.
After that i do what i can to get more room by sliding my head down further and further, using my hands to pull the arm down a bit and break the lock.
Basically your using the human bodies make up to get out of it and then probably me just being a bit panicy and trying to do whatever i can to get my head out of the lock.

I should also mention that there have been times where i have started to get a bit of tunnel vision with this lock escape. I am yet to be choked out, but then i havent had a MMA bout yet.

That is probably a bjj way of getting out, i dont know what grappling style i learn, i believe it is bjj. Have to disagree with TC, if they have the lock on properly, using all their strength i cant see how you have the strength to break their arms free. I will try your lock with my brother who trains with me.

Arent we all proud of where we come from? in some way we all show some arrogance that our training is far better then anyone elses. I believe that to be human. Is mine any better then TC's or Ben or Arieson? I dont know but i hope to god it is.
A fight only proves who was better on the day. 3 fights only proves who the better fighter is. What does the fight actually prove? doesnt prove who the better person is, who the more manly person is, better father, son, brother, etc... do you see where i am going with that?

So far i have seen one reasonable response to TC's technique, the rest have just continued their rant at arguing with him. Have you not learned he isnt going to change? give up and go suck mummies tit or rape ethiopian children whilst eating vaginal discharge. I would like to have a discussion on technique for my own information, dont want to read about you clowns and your "TC fight me" "you are a liar because i say so" FFS keep it on topic. Lets have a discussion otherwise this forum will eventually die, because people will loose interest and become tired about your homosexual rants about wanting to mount bruce.

Heh..

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2105581&postcount=177

[Ben Grimm]

Just blowing off a bit of steam. It wasn't really directed at anybody. It just pisses me off that TigerClown can't grasp simple concepts like that.

[TigerClaw]

After a submission hold (joint lock or choke) there is no escape. All effective escapes taught involve either avoiding the situation completely or blocking the move halfway before it is completely sunken in. If it was possible to escape from a submission hold after it is fully in (and properly applied) then there'd be no point in even learning it, let alone basing numerous sports and martial arts in it. It's the same principle as blocking a punch, you can't block a punch after it makes contact with your face. I think we can all agree that teaching a block that is to be used after a punch makes contact with your face is a little unrealistic .

I am aware that the technique I showed works best just before the final lock or earlier. You can see in the pictures my son has his arm not tight yet around the neck or squeezing.

But I do believe that if this is done right you can escape just as they lock in. If certain factors are in place. And if you do the technique properly. I have seen some try this and they twist the wrong way, they don't apply the force to the elbow right or at the right angle, they don't tuck the head in down and around. Etc.

But the real thing is that I have a few escapes from this move after it is locked in and some have none. the best some can say is something like, "you are finished after that". Well that is not acceptable for combat defense. There is always a way out. You need to find it or you may be dead. In a sport arena there is no fear of this, but in combat it is different. It may involve a quick strike back to the groin or a stomping on the instep hard, or a hard elbow to the slar plexes just a half second before you apply all the 4 other parts at the same time of this technique.

[Uncle Skippy]

But I do believe that if this is done right you can escape just as they lock in. If certain factors are in place.

Is one of those factors that the attacker doesn't have any arms?

Because if the attacker doesn't have any arms, that escape would work great.

[Uncle Skippy]

I am aware that the technique I showed works best just before the final lock or earlier. You can see in the pictures my son has his arm not tight yet around the neck or squeezing.

You are obviously wrong in an obvious way.

Your son didn't even squeeze.

Show some video of you pulling this off on someone with more than 3 months of BJJ experience then people might take you seriously.

Until then, your garage Kung Fu is weak.

[Uncle Skippy]

Bruce / TigerClaw,

Conveniently, you still haven't answered the question I posed in post #34. By not answering, you are simply showing everyone else just how little you know about the material.

Here it is again:

So, in the long history of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other submission grappling/wrestling arts, nobody else has tried this enough or practiced it enough to make it work?

In BJJ, an art where submission escapes are just as important as submissions, there have been noble full-hearted attempts to try to escape the RNC by other means. Everyone is willing to try everything to come up with a new escape.

If your escape is high-percentage and works, then why, with all the history and number of BJJ practitioners, do we not see other people doing it?

Do you think you came up with something novel and original?

[TigerClaw]

Is one of those factors that the attacker doesn't have any arms?

Because if the attacker doesn't have any arms, that escape would work great.

What??

Its all about proper leverage and body positioning. Also you don't just rely on the push upward of the one hand or the pulling upward and forward of the other hand. The duck and tuck of the head is very important. At the same time as you pull the hand behind the head up and forward and push the elbow up hard with extreme force you duck and tuck the head out as you twisted your stance to the side and crouched.

I have done this many times and against a strong lock.

[Uncle Skippy]

Its all about proper leverage and body positioning. Also you don't just rely on the push upward of the one hand or the pulling upward and forward of the other hand. The duck and tuck of the head is very important. At the same time as you pull the hand behind the head up and forward and push the elbow up hard with extreme force you duck and tuck the head out as you twisted your stance to the side and crouched.

I have done this many times and against a strong lock.

I don't believe you (surprise!). It wasn't a strong lock if you got out. Basic physics and human anatomy says otherwise.

Did you try it against someone with basic BJJ experience? Even someone with as little as 3 months?

No?

Then your escape holds no water and you have no idea what you are talking about.

"But it works"

No, it doesn't.

NEXT!

[TigerClaw]

I don't believe you (surprise!). It wasn't a strong lock if you got out. Basic physics and human anatomy says otherwise.

Did you try it against someone with basic BJJ experience? Even someone with as little as 3 months?

No?

Then your escape holds no water and you have no idea what you are talking about.

"But it works"

No, it doesn't.

NEXT!

I did show this technique to a semi pro MMA teacher and he liked it and agreed that is works. And no, I am not going to give his name. I have my reasons. I am not giving any more personal info here, take that as you want. I am not lying also.

Each technique will work differently , (I mean in slight variations) with different people. For example if I am teaching how to escape a grab around the chest locking the arms from behind. It will work for people of similar size very well. But if the person grabbing the student is a huge 6 fott 3 man 280 pounds and built like a rock and the student is a 10 year old kid weak as a feather and 4 feet tall etc. Then the big guy just picks the kid into the air and the technique changes. These are obvious things. The same goes for fighting a highly trained Kung Fu fighter or a beginner. The techniques that are needed for both vary at times.

I would first teach my students how to avoid even getting into a RNC. If they fail at that then i would show them how to react before the choke is put on, and if the choke is put on them, I give them other options. I don't stop and say, oh well your dead now. I can teach you nothing at that point. And no I am not talking about when the choke has been on them full force for 4 to 7 seconds. I am talking about the initial timing and reaction, just before full force is put on.

But again there are many factors. Does the skilled fighter do the technique right, if so what is his height and weight and strength.

All these things matter. If I have a 4 year old kid try a rear naked choke on a hulking 6 foot 2 man with massive arms. The kid has thin stick like muscles and very weak arms. The kid will not be able to stop the force of the large muscular man from forcing his elbow up or pulling his hand up and forward from behind the head. It is hard enough for a man of equal size to resist the leverage of the tugging and pressing of the elbow up and out. It is very hard for the young kid to stop the larger mans force.

So I am not saying that this technique will work for everyone no matter what. All techniques have parameters.

But I certainly don't want to give up and say, "your finished if he just starts to lock you. As many seem to do.

I have been practicing this more recently with full force and I still manage every time to get my head out of the arm lock.

Here is a principle I teach.

Hold your fist out strait in front of you. Now have another person put their hand on top of your fist and push down. Try to stop him. You won't be able, the force pushing down is easier to achieve than the force pushing up. Now do the same thing, extend your hand out and have the opponent put his hand palm up under your fist. have him try to push your hand up and you push down. he won't be able to push you up as easy.

There are certain weak areas of the arm and muscle tension that allow the opponent to push down, but not up. The same principle works for this technique. But when you push the elbow up, you keep your arm close in and tight to your body, this allows you to use more of your body and not just the arm. Also you are not just pushing the elbow up, that is not as easy, remember, if the opponent is forcing his elbow don and you going up, that will be difficult. So you push the elbow up at a 45 degree angle. The force needed to push an elbow up is not easy, but when pushing the elbow up at an angle you will se how easier it is. Try this on your own elbow. take your left hand and tuck it in to your side, have your left hand on the left side of your face, now take your right palm, face up and push your elbow strait up. It will be impossible almost, Not push it to the side, it is easier. This is how you do the elbow push, not strait up. But that is only one part of it. You also grab his hand at the back of the head locking onto the inside of the palm of the attackers hand. and you pul up and forward as you push the elbow as well, this creates a double force on his arm that is difficult to balance. But, another very important factor is the tucking the head down and through the hole as you do this. If you did it fast and with sudden force, that jerky motion loosens the lock slightly and allows you to slip out. But don't forget to twist the hips to the side as you do this and crouch down suddenly.

[Uncle Skippy]

I did show this technique to a semi pro MMA teacher and he liked it and agreed that is works. And no, I am not going to give his name. I have my reasons. I am not giving any more personal info here, take that as you want. I am not lying also.

There is no good reason to believe you just because you state you are 'not lying also.'

I have a tail.

I am not lying also.