Ngo Cho Kun

[konghan]

IMHO, master Chee is a great and a successful master of ngo cho kun, he was able to expand his ngo cho kun internationally also he was part of the original group of ngo cho kun masters who banned together and founded the International South Shaolin Wuzuquan Union.

As far as the origin of ngo cho kun, there are two version the first version is that of Master Chee's ngo cho kun which originated directly from the Shaolin temple and set sometimes in the 13th century. The second version is the ngo cho kun founded by Master Chua Giok Beng during the 1800s at Quanzhou, Fujian province China.

There are different interpretation of ngo cho kun by different leanages, but inspite of that differences one common denomenator that makes all ngo cho kun one martial family is the fact that the foundation of ngo cho kun is base on the combination of the five ancestors which are:
1. white crane
2. monkey kung fu
3. Tai Cho (grand ancestor)
4. Lo han
5. Da Mo

Ngo cho kun is an expansion of those great combat styles combining it together making it a more deadlier form or system of martial kung fu.

That, and the fact that all ngo cho kun family believe on the sam chien philosophy and the heritage of ngo cho kun originating from the Shaolin temple.

[Lau]

There are some slight confusions etc which I hope to enlighten. First, to understand how cnfusions can arise, you have to understand Chinese. "Wu" is "5" in Mandarin, whereas "Ng" is "5" in Cantonese, so depending on which dialect you are referring to, they are probably all the same. "Ng Chor" has also been referred to as "Wu Chu, Wuxi, Ng Cho Moon" etc etc The association set up is in the South, hence "Nan" is used. The name and linearage which Chee KT mentioned to me was in 1970, long before the Klang Road club and Chee was affliated to the mainland Chinese association.

I was with Chee until the end of 70s when the Society was quite badly torn apart by internal politics, details of which I will not go into, but basically it was certain factions who wanted to gain prominence in association with the Group. Chee is a simple man and did not know what has happening really unitl very much later.

Just to add something which the "website" has either left out or not known to its people, let me tell you some of the things which Chee narrated when we have supper tea. Every time Chee came down to Ipoh, he will always ask to be taken to a certain place for supper where we will just drink "Tan Char" meaning tea/herbal tea with egg. For those who are 60 and above and from Ipoh, you will know that this place still exists (behind Elim Gospel Hall).

Chee has a clinic in Dungun (Chinese medical) which specialises in "painless bone setting". He kept a very low profile as a martial arts exponent, and only 3 of his best buddies in Dungun knows Chee has martial arts experience, and as they say "can fight well". One of these 3 buddies is a bus conductor, and how Chee came under the spotlight was one day this bus conductor got into trouble with some Malays who chased him with parangs (Malay short blades) over some problems. This guy took refuge in Chee's clinic. The Malay guys demanded that Chee surrenders the bus conductor to them, but Chee refused, and instead asked them to forget about violence. They challenged Chee to fight and Chee took on to 4 of them at once, 2 armed with parangs.

Chee defeated them but did not hurt any of them. He just disarmed the 2 with parangs and it soon became apparent that these 4 Malays were not getting anywhere, and finally left peacefully. This incident slowly spread by word of mouth, and finally came to the ears of Yap Cheng Hai.

Cheng Hai then went to Dungun to see Chee. Cheng Hai at that time has already studied many forms of Chinese martial arts, including Ng Chor.

Let me tell you something about Ng Chor, which you may or may not know. Eg in the first kata "Sam Chien" the student executes his/her sequence of movements. The teacher or senior actually executes another set of movements at the same instance in sort of a "reply" or response to the student's execution. The teacher is able to alter his response at any instance in order to test the correct application of the student's movement.

So, back to the Chee and Cheng Hai episode . . .

Chee asked Cheng Hai to execute the Ng Chor. At that time, Cheng Hai did not know that Ng Chor has a "response" sequence, so when Chee applied the response sequence to Cheng Hai, Cheng Hai could not even budge any further than the introductary movements.

The rest, you can read at the website.

Just curious, anyone out there who has learnt the Ng Chor "Sam Chien" and "Yee Sup Kuen" ? Wondered if they are the same as taught by Chee.

[konghan]

There are some slight confusions etc which I hope to enlighten. First, to understand how cnfusions can arise, you have to understand Chinese. "Wu" is "5" in Mandarin, whereas "Ng" is "5" in Cantonese, so depending on which dialect you are referring to, they are probably all the same. "Ng Chor" has also been referred to as "Wu Chu, Wuxi, Ng Cho Moon" etc etc The association set up is in the South, hence "Nan" is used. The name and linearage which Chee KT mentioned to me was in 1970, long before the Klang Road club and Chee was affliated to the mainland Chinese association.

Nan Shaolin Wuzuquan, means:
1. nan = south
2. shao = little
3. lin = forest
4. wu = five (fujian it is pronounce as ngo or goh or gor etc.)
5. zu = ancestors (fujian it is cho)
6. quan = fist ( fujian it is kun)

The present International South (Nan) Shaolin Wuzuquan Federation, is name Nan Shaolin Wuzuquan mainly to clearly identify wuzuquan (ngo cho kun) as originated and is part of South Shaolin kung fu. Becuase there being two shaolin one northern shaolin and the other south shaolin the public need's to know that wuzuquan is a south shaolin kung fu.

In every organization there will always be internal politics it is part of human nature, what boils down is how the organization handle itself in keeping those internal politics and power struggle under control.

My ngo cho kun is that of Kong Han AThletic Club under the late master Lo King Hui whoes ngo cho leanage is trace to sijo Chua Giok Beng.

Our Yee Sup kuen is pronounce as di sip kun which is the same meaning, and that is 20 punches. Our sam chien and all our forms are more externally intensive with powerful breathing and emphasis on muscle tensioning.

[joedoe]

Mr Lau

I practice GM Chee's form of Sam Chien and 20 Punches. I have trained Ngor Chor for more than half my life under one of his 'so-so' sons . I do not want to get into any arguments regarding people's skill level, so I will not go into that any further than to say that if you have any doubts about the skill level of any of GM Chee's students (or sons), you should come to Australia and see for yourself.

Otherwise, it is nice to see another student of the Chee Kim Thong lineage here

[Lau]

I received some private emails, and thank you all for them, but I will choose to address them openly as I feel that there will be a lot of you younger exponents who would like to read more and decide for yourself what is worth reading and what is not.

I know that Chee wanted to impart the best to his own (Bun/Hock etc) but they could not absorb what he was trying to teach them, and towards the last few years of his life, Chee initated a very very private class for only 2 chosen students, no one was allowed to watch or even be at his house when the weekly training took place. This went on for about 9 nine months before Chee passed away.

This does not mean that his students are not good. Chee produced a lot of very vibrant fighters. Ah Hock has tremendous power, Ah Bun speed etc sure they are good, but not as good as Chee wanted them to be. Sorry if I have hurt your feelings, but no intention to do that.

OK back to history. According to what Chee told me, Ng Chor came about thru the efforts of Pai Yu Feng sometime in the 13th Century (Thanks for the correction !), and Ng Chor originated at the Shaolin Temple at Shongshan, Henan. Here is another subject for debate - the founders of Ng Chor has also been the subject of heated debate, because according to Chee, there was another version of how Ng Chor came about.

OK, let us go thru the first four . .

1. Lohan - basically the Arhat system,
2. Tai Zhu - this is the Sung Emperor style (spelling differs)
3. White Crane - as the name implied
4. The Monkey style - I think it is called Tai Sing or something like that

and the fifth ? Most historians and "experts" have no hesitation to put in "Da Mo", but I did remember Chee telling us then (mid 1970s) he believed that Xuan Nu could have been the fifth style as Ng Chor incorporates a lot of the soft but lethal techniques of the mysterious lady. He did say a female did play a very large part in the birth of Ng Chor, apart from the fact that it was also a female who taught him the finer points of the art.

Has anyone of you ever witnessed an initiation ceremony ?

[joedoe]

As in discipleship? Yes.

[Nothingness]

Mr. Lau,

First, I am not related to Chee's lineage or organization of any sorts. It seems that you are closely related to Chee family.

I am interested in how you would describe the mediocricity of Chee's descendants in a technical way. Maybe it will serve as a correction for any NCK practicioners in particular and all CMA practicioners in general.

Thank you in advance.

[Drunken Munky]

and the fifth ? Most historians and "experts" have no hesitation to put in "Da Mo", but I did remember Chee telling us then (mid 1970s) he believed that Xuan Nu could have been the fifth style as Ng Chor incorporates a lot of the soft but lethal techniques of the mysterious lady. He did say a female did play a very large part in the birth of Ng Chor, apart from the fact that it was also a female who taught him the finer points of the art.

Has anyone of you ever witnessed an initiation ceremony ?

The female being the Lady in the Green Dress, who added humility and softness to the system, by any chance?

With the more in detail characteristics of gentleness, softness, beautiful flowing movements to overcome opponents, also respect and humility. I was under the assumption that Xuannu (Lady with the Green Dress), was only involved after the creation of the style.

I thought, that the Damo ancestor added the marrow washing aspect (which was harmonised with tendon changes).

But I am not authority of Wuzuquan, and so am probably wrong

[yentao]

The female being the Lady in the Green Dress, who added humility and softness to the system, by any chance?

With the more in detail characteristics of gentleness, softness, beautiful flowing movements to overcome opponents, also respect and humility. I was under the assumption that Xuannu (Lady with the Green Dress), was only involved after the creation of the style.

I thought, that the Damo ancestor added the marrow washing aspect (which was harmonised with tendon changes).

But I am not authority of Wuzuquan, and so am probably wrong

IMO, correct me if i'm wrong, but Damo is not really an internal aspect of wuzuquan as it uses strong tensions of muscles which trains more the external aspect but probably the breathing makes it viewed as something internal.

just my opinion

[Lau]

Well, these are just opinions, thoughts etc and who knows who is right or wrong ? Could have been Da Mo, could have been Xuan Nu, but these are just some information which I do believe would add interest in Ng Chor. There are several quarters that says that Xuan Nu was not one of the five, but she sort of arranges the "kata sequence" and was instrumental in bringing about the Ng Chor as old man Chee learnt.

On the linearage of the art, I remembered Chee saying that when he described to us his linearage, it was accurate and correct but it does not mean that there are no other linearages. It is just like Ng Chor as I see it today.

I looked at the website of the UK branch. It looked like Chee passed on his linearage to only 2 parties, which then again I know that not to be true. There are Ng Chor academies in Australia, Singapore etc and these are run by people who learnt it from Chee - so how come these are missing or have they been deliberately left out ?

Take the example of Australia - one of Chee's son is there. How come he has not been identified as part of the Chee's linearage ?

Take another example of Singapore - Chan See Meng has not even been mentioned at all. He is after all the blue eye disciple of Chee, and perhaps it is also opportune for me to say that he was in Shaolin Academy China to instruct and improve the Ng Chor students there, sent there by Chee.

Talking about Chee, did anyone of you attend his 80th birthday celebrations in KL ? Did any of your sifu attend ? Ask what was Chee's demostration that awed the guests - something which you tend to see in cinemas and never thought could have happened in real life ? Not in our times, anyway. Well, try and find that out and I will let you on to it next time I post.

[joedoe]

My sifu and I were there at the birthday celebrations. In fact, if you have a tape of the demonstrations performed during the dinner, you will see both myself and my sifu demonstrating.

[Drunken Munky]

Again, I irriterate I am not authority on Wuzuquan. So the following maybe incorrect.

Well, these are just opinions, thoughts etc and who knows who is right or wrong ? Could have been Da Mo, could have been Xuan Nu, but these are just some information which I do believe would add interest in Ng Chor. There are several quarters that says that Xuan Nu was not one of the five, but she sort of arranges the "kata sequence" and was instrumental in bringing about the Ng Chor as old man Chee learnt.

They are opinions, and I think that Ulimately, its doesn't matter which is right. As long as there is an awareness of them. After reading the website:

http://meloveline-sg.com/

Which is Chan See Meng's site I think, I find:

"At any rate, while it's good to know the roots of one's martial art system, it is counter productive to go down the path of claiming and counter claiming what the history should or should not be. It benefits no one to feud over our dearly departed. Knowing the history well is one thing, knowing how to execute the art well is another thing. My view is to treasure what was passed down to us from the past, focus on the present and look towards the future to ensure the art is not lost."

I would say I have to agree with this statement, and feel it ties in with what you say.

I looked at the website of the UK branch. It looked like Chee passed on his linearage to only 2 parties, which then again I know that not to be true. There are Ng Chor academies in Australia, Singapore etc and these are run by people who learnt it from Chee - so how come these are missing or have they been deliberately left out ?

Take the example of Australia - one of Chee's son is there. How come he has not been identified as part of the Chee's linearage ?

Take another example of Singapore - Chan See Meng has not even been mentioned at all. He is after all the blue eye disciple of Chee, and perhaps it is also opportune for me to say that he was in Shaolin Academy China to instruct and improve the Ng Chor students there, sent there by Chee
.

If you are talking about, which I think it is:

http://www.cheekimthong.com/shrewsbury/sy_index.html

After looking into it, I find this isn't the website for the UK. It is a website primariliy for the Club based in Shrewsbury, UK. The two Masters it mentions are, Shigong Han Kim Sen who "is Shizu Chee's most senior disciple outside of the Far East ". And also, Shigong Yap, whom is the head of the 'Chee Kim Thong Pugilistic and Health Society'.

These are the only two mentioned, I think firstly because the Shrewsbury Club isn't in the far east, and so come under the responsibilty (if thats the right word) of Shigong Han Kim Sen. Also since Shigong Yap is the head of the Society, he is mentioned. I don't think the other Linerages have been missed out of purpose, it may be that there would be no point, in showing all the known Lineages, IMO the website is aimed at people interested in joining the club. Where as the site at www.cheekimthong.com will be used to detail all the Lineages from Shizu Chee.

[Lau]

I will not have access to the tapes etc until probably March when I will be in Singapore. I will make it a point to view the tape, but right at this moment I am not able to remember what the Australian contingent contributed, but I will make it a point to view that. At least I will know how you look !

Joedoe, are you aware that Bun knows the technique of chi concentration, he knows how it should be trained etc but I am not sure if he has managed to master that skill now. I presume you are much younger than I am (60), and if you ask him to teach you the steps leading to the successful attainment of that technique, it will be just great. Even though a person (say your master or me or anybody) may not have attained that skill, it does not mean that he/she cannot teach somebody else the skill - remember this !! Eg I can feel my chi moving, but I cannot direct my chi properly - it takes a lot of concentration to do that.

Let me give you an example. I can feel the "hot" flushes along my arm, and I know I have to try to slow the movement of the flushes down, and then direct them to my palm. Sometimes I can sometimes (more often) I cannot. If you have reached the point where you can direct the chi to the palm of your hand, and retain the chi there, then you have reached a higher level.

Remember once I said Chee could direct his chi to break say tile number 4, and leave the rest undamaged ? Same as when he heated that cup of water with his chi ? Those are the "ultimates" and "pinnacles" of chi concentration. Those are some of the techniques which Chee was so keen to see his successors master.

[joedoe]

In that case, then I don't think GM Chee was unsuccessful. While my Sifu does not appear to have attained that level of skill yet, he is well on his way to it. There are many things he can do that defy belief.

IMO though, while these things indicate a high degree of skill and training ultimately we are training a martial art, and the application of the martial skills is just as important if not more important than whether you can boil a cup of water in your hand. To me the ability to control your energy and carry off these amazing feats are more an added bonus to our training rather than the main focus.

Most importantly in a teacher, is also the ability to pass this knowledge on to the student. Often those who are most skilled are also the ones who are least able to pass knowledge on. In this regard, I count myself lucky since my Sifu is not only very skilled in the art, but also very good at passing his knowledge on to his students.

[millie]

thank you lau ( im not being playful this time)

yep that just about corers it