Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[Garland]

The keys words here are Tai Ji Quan. The Quan (Chuan) is hardly practiced because most did not learn it and cannot teach others.

that seems pretty convenient.

I just love how defensive you guys get when somebody simply tells you straight up what they think is wrong with their system.
Perhaps you guys should broaden your horizons a bit.

I just call shit as I see it.

[Garland]

and as far as my comments regarding offense as the best defense...
most reality based self defense/offense courses I know of preach the same type of concepts.

Jim Grover/ aka Kelly McCann
Krav Maga guys
Tony Blauer
many of the FMA guys (just as every move in kali is an offensive maneuver)
etc etc etc.
Muay thai... (hit first, hit hard, always answer back.)
...

[chris davis 200]

Garland.

In my experience Tai chi Chuan doesnt seperate Offence and defence into two seperate ideas.

both are performed simultaniously.

In the same beat that an attacker tries to strike you, you defend the strike and strike him back, at the same time. So Offence and defence occure simultaniously.

Offensive action is considered a high priority in authentic tai chi chuan. pre-emptive striking, finishing encounters fast etc All there in tai chi as i have been taught it.

My teachers main Tai Chi teacher was bodyguard to the president of Taiwan during a very violent time. I guess this may be a reason why his Tai Chi Chuan is so effective. But he didnt need to cross train to defend himself and his client in any situation, weapons ... multiple opponents etc etc.

I agree that if you walk into your average Tai Chi class, even if it is from a lineage 'master' you may not get anything of substance regarding fighting.

There are many reasons for this ... Tai Chi is not the problem. Mistranslation of concepts, confusion of concepts, poor teachers, adoption as a national excersise, cultural revolution, western teachers getting very very little and coming back to their home country as 'masters' etc etc etc.

Sadley Tai Chi suffered more than most martial arts because of its health benefits. Chopping the art down to one twentieth of its size to make it an excersise. Even schools that claim to do 'old' styles are generally doing a very weak version of the original system.

finding authentic Tai Chi Chuan is like finding a peice of hay in a massive stack of needles.

Chris

[VeggiMomi]

Garland.
There are many reasons for this ... Tai Chi is not the problem. Mistranslation of concepts, confusion of concepts, poor teachers, adoption as a national excersise, cultural revolution, western teachers getting very very little and coming back to their home country as 'masters' etc etc etc.

Sadley Tai Chi suffered more than most martial arts because of its health benefits. Chopping the art down to one twentieth of its size to make it an excersise. Even schools that claim to do 'old' styles are generally doing a very weak version of the original system.

finding authentic Tai Chi Chuan is like finding a peice of hay in a massive stack of needles.

Chris

*applause* Well said.

Garland, it's obvious that you don't know much about Tai Chi. Maybe you should do some research?

Also, many of us don't exclusively study Tai Chi and only Tai Chi. Besides there being different styles of Tai Chi, it is also very complimentary to your other areas of study. For instance, I'm surprised at how much of my Tai Chi training is complimenting my Shuai Jiao training.

But you are right to say that it isn't the style, it's the fighter that wins the fight.

Anyway, this is all pointless going back and forth considering you've awoken a dead post just to debate POVs.

Both Tai Chi Practitioners and Non-Tai Chi Practitioners - Enjoy.

http://www.ilram.com/

(go to Projects, then Tai Chi Masters. Funny stuff!)

[Garland]

*applause*
Both Tai Chi Practitioners and Non-Tai Chi Practitioners - Enjoy.

http://www.ilram.com/

(go to Projects, then Tai Chi Masters. Funny stuff!)

...I'm sorry to sound, again, like a complete dick...but that short was pretty much what I'd expect out of a tai chi fight...minus the ability to actually cause injury.







On a similar note...I did meet an interesting tai chi chuan practitioner the other night (he also practices wing chun, which I believe to be an excellent martial art, for trapping range at least)

His take on tai chi was not neccessarily in the combative application, but on how tai chi makes you more aware, via push hands exercises and continuious walking meditation and awareness of one's own body through these means...and how these practices make you more aware of the type of energy (not mystic type stuff, but a measure of the opponent's agressive intention, just like hubud-lubud in kali teaches you how to respond to different angles of attack) that your opponent is likely to use.

I can actually see how that could be a good skill, but as for the motions of tai chi...indulge me, since I apparently am not seeing the application of the form, is an effective strike.

I would greatly...GREATLY like to be shown a real tai chi guy in a fight, MMA or real life street fight, doing his thing. Even if he loses, I would like to see how tai chi is applied in an ACTUAL fight, not the unlikely scenarios put forth in books like Erle Montague's stuff. (I think I got his name right...)

[VeggiMomi]

His take on tai chi was not neccessarily in the combative application, but on how tai chi makes you more aware, via push hands exercises and continuious walking meditation and awareness of one's own body through these means...and how these practices make you more aware of the type of energy (not mystic type stuff, but a measure of the opponent's agressive intention, just like hubud-lubud in kali teaches you how to respond to different angles of attack) that your opponent is likely to use.

I can actually see how that could be a good skill, but as for the motions of tai chi...indulge me, since I apparently am not seeing the application of the form, is an effective strike.

That's kind of what we're trying to tell you...

]I would greatly...GREATLY like to be shown a real tai chi guy in a fight, MMA or real life street fight, doing his thing. Even if he loses, I would like to see how tai chi is applied in an ACTUAL fight, not the unlikely scenarios put forth in books like Erle Montague's stuff. (I think I got his name right...)

I've only ever studied Yang style, but from what I've learned, the moves are almost EXACTLY like any other Chinese Martial Arts style. Punch, kick, block, throw, etc. You just have the added Tai Chi principles. That's the basic explanation, though I don't feel the need to go on about this. If I had video to show you, I would, but I don't. Perhaps in the future I will.

Point is, *IF USED CORRECTLY* Tai Chi CAN be used as a defensive art. It's generally not offensive, considering most Tai Chi practitioners try NOT to get into fights. If you truely understand the art and truely understand how to use it, you can have devastating results. Though it may take you decades to master it

[BoarSpear]

Tai Chi

If you put in equal amounts of time in training tai chi probably isnt the fastest payoff in fighting ability, no doubt a blend of techniques and styles fit to the threat you are most likely to encounter is the best option. This cant be pulled from the air or the movies but must come from experiance. so either seek out seasoned "bad guys" (bouncers, street fighters ex-cons, current cons) and learn from them, join the "good guys" ( LEO's, military,) and learn what they have learned in the school of hard knocks brought to you by the bad guys. See how the bad guys keep coming up? study ruthless devestating styles(FMA,Silat,) to save you and your family. stay alert , fit stay out of places full of low lifes who want to get drunk and fight over nothing. Then you can tailor a realistic training program that covers speed , evasivness, neutralizing attacks, counterstriking to vulnerable or soft spots on the body and keep your methods of delivering these strikes hidden until the last possible moment. no showboating, hey wait isnt that Tai Chi chuan? once you see the evident attacks from the pure fighting systems you can find similiar movements hidden in your Tai chi forms. So in the long run maybe Tai chi is good since you can practice its techniques for years without destroying your body. An art you still practice at 50 is always better than one you havent practiced since you were 35 cause it made your back and knees hurt.

[47MartialMan]

that seems pretty convenient.

I just love how defensive you guys get when somebody simply tells you straight up what they think is wrong with their system.
Perhaps you guys should broaden your horizons a bit.

I just call shit as I see it.

Hey, I see where there is a flux of believers thinking it is effective and those that are non-practitoners thinking it is not.

I have seen many practitoners not beong able to do so.

However, ine man that i had seen actually defended himself with strong effectiveness. it was in the parking lot of a late night supermarket. Needless to state that I went to his aid all too late as he knocked one of his atttackers uncomcious and the other fled. Also, that I had inquired where dihe learn his methods, he had replied his family practicesTai Ji Chuan.

As far as calling shit as you see it-look in the mirror

[jubaji]

Hey, I see where there is a flux of believers thinking it is effective and those that are non-practitoners thinking it is not.

I have seen many practitoners not beong able to do so.

However, ine man that i had seen actually defended himself with strong effectiveness. it was in the parking lot of a late night supermarket. Needless to state that I went to his aid all too late as he knocked one of his atttackers uncomcious and the other fled. Also, that I had inquired where dihe learn his methods, he had replied his family practicesTai Ji Chuan.

Is that when you asked him to teach you English?

[47MartialMan]

Is that when you asked him to teach you English?

Hmmnnn...What?

[HtTKar]

An art you still practice at 50 is always better than one you havent practiced since you were 35 cause it made your back and knees hurt.

There are many arts like this. Its how you treat your body. Look at Randy Couture; Hes 40yrs old and still competes in UFC. Pretty successfull at that too. Greco Roman wrestling is not easy, but he's still competing at the highest levels.

[BoarSpear]

There are many arts like this. Its how you treat your body. Look at Randy Couture; Hes 40yrs old and still competes in UFC. Pretty successfull at that too. Greco Roman wrestling is not easy, but he's still competing at the highest levels.

Really? Many arts like Tai chi ? Enlighten me .. No doubt Randy is an awesome physical specimen, however to imply that his body isnt being abused by the training and practices of the life style that he lives is absurd. I suppose because professional wrestlers rick flair, hulk hogan etc still compete/perform that this is also a healthy art? Now i am not comparing Randys and the entertainers just the punishment they subject themselves to. note that Sun Lu Tang was a highly respected Master who lived to a ripe old age without cauliflower ears.

[HtTKar]

Really? Many arts like Tai chi ? Enlighten me .. No doubt Randy is an awesome physical specimen, however to imply that his body isnt being abused by the training and practices of the life style that he lives is absurd. I suppose because professional wrestlers rick flair, hulk hogan etc still compete/perform that this is also a healthy art? Now i am not comparing Randys and the entertainers just the punishment they subject themselves to. note that Sun Lu Tang was a highly respected Master who lived to a ripe old age without cauliflower ears.

True. But these guys are competitors. If they just practiced at home or in groups without actually fighting people; who knows. Many people that take Tai Chi dont even compete, so of course their body is not going to be punished by opponents. If Tai Chi practitioners fought like other martial atists, their bodies would take the same punishment. It's like apples and oranges. Its easy to not get hurt if you avoid physical confrontation. In any art you can practice its "Techniques" without getting hurt, but when you try to practice those techniques on real people, your body will take some punishment. Competition ensures that.

[BoarSpear]

True. But these guys are competitors. If they just practiced at home or in groups without actually fighting people; who knows. Many people that take Tai Chi dont even compete, so of course their body is not going to be punished by opponents. If Tai Chi practitioners fought like other martial atists, their bodies would take the same punishment. It's like apples and oranges. Its easy to not get hurt if you avoid physical confrontation. In any art you can practice its "Techniques" without getting hurt, but when you try to practice those techniques on real people, your body will take some punishment. Competition ensures that.

Yeah thats it if tai chi guys fought they would get hurt more, Have you ever seen real tai chi chaun? Not that sh#t in the celebrex commercial and the park. I will be the first to agree most tai Chi is worthless in a fight. Thats because of how its practiced today by most people who get into it to relax etc. Not all tai chi people spend all day punching air, some actually crosstrain with other styles and god forbid hit each other!

[chris davis 200]

some dont cross train in other styles and still .... hit each other!