Tai Chi,good self-defense art or not?

[Dom Shakal]

I've been reading some of this thread for awhile now, but not all of it. So I apologize in advance if I'm repeating a point that's already been made.

First off, I think it's a little close-minded to suggest that TC can't be used as an effective martial art or form of self-defense. That said, consider the following.

I've trained a little in both Tai Chi (Yang Style) and MT. It seems to me that, all other things being relatively equal (weight, size, level of experience), someone who has trained in MT for six months would pretty much destroy someone who's trained in TC for six months. The MT self-defense progession is worlds faster than the same type of progression in TC (assuming your TC school even teaches TC self-defense applications, which mine does).

MT begins as a combat art, and progresses as a combat art - and from what I've seen, it's extremely effective. TC begins very slowly, with sensitivity training, forms, and push hands. Self-defense applications seem to be incorporated very slowly, with an emphasis on correct form structure and "rooting".

However, I suspect that someone who has consistently trained in martial TC for 10 years would put up a pretty good fight against someone who's trained in MT for 10 years. Why? Because I think that the art of MT would probably begin to plateau around 5 years into the training, but after 5 years of martial TC training, the practicioner would just be getting comfortable.

Thoughts?

[VeggiMomi]

I also apologize, I haven't read the entire thread (it's kinda long) but I've been training in kung fu and tai chi for about 4 years now and my Sifu teaches both form and application.

Tai Chi Chuan translates to something like "Grand Ultimate Fist." The main idea of "chi manipulation" is connecting your body (yes, body mechanics and alignment) and directing your energy or momentum. Tai Chi has punches, kicks, chin na and throwing just like any other style. Chi is not a mystical force, though it was thought to be for such a long time it now has a reputation for it. I mean, when Tai Chi was developed, did anyone have the technology or science that they do now to know that there truely are electric currents running through our bodies? This doesn't mean we can start fires or anything by pointing at something, but if you work reaaaaally hard for a reaaaally long time, you just might make a spark! (LoL). The opening of the meridians and gathering your "chi" in different areas doesn't do anything mystical or magical, it allows you to focus on whatever you're doing 100% so that you have the ability to follow through (like when you see someone walking on nails - body mechanics).

Before I get off topic, when it comes to fighting, Tai Chi takes a VERY long time to master. If you're interested in learning self defense AND keeping your body healthy, though, I would learn both Tai Chi AND an external art. The way my teacher explains it, this will not only help you keep balance within your body but will also ensure your physical longevity (if done right). I can fight with kung fu now, but eventually my body will slow down and old age will take it's course - hopefully by then I will be a tai chi master and noone could touch me

I do like to joke around with people who don't know what they're talking about by saying things like "I control The Force" LoL.

If you're in denial of the structure of tai chi... why not find yourself a GOOD Tai Chi master and learn for yourself?

[DAT]

I support Taiji. I do 37 Yang. But I have to step back and look at Taiji martial realistically in this day and age. Is it really viable? I know people do martial arts for many reasons, and Taiji in particular, but this observation only concerns the martial aspect of Taiji.

For the most part, in my opinion, Taiji is way down the list when it comes to martial based on these observations:

1. It takes too long to become somewhat proficient. A tough sell in this fast food throw away society. Not to mention the problems associated with its marketing appeal.
2. Push hands, by itself, is not really a good preparation for actual street confrontation. And in many schools I observed and visited that's the culmination of martial training.
3. The basic chin-na learned is not enough of a well rounded martial curriculum lacking striking and ground work.
4. The general atmosphere of Taiji in the U.S. almost looks upon martial training as something evil and something to be shunned. There's too much mystical new age holistic BS interjected. Heaven forbid is a teacher were to mention that Taiji has a martial component.
5. And the bottom line is that good martial theory and application has not and is not being passed down the line from teacher to teacher. I see this permeating Taiji schools all over the U.S. Unfortunately Taiji has become nothing more than standing Yoga.

Now the reason I make these points is because I personally think this is a travesty. Taiji is a martial art and a powerful one at that. All the neija arts can be as martial as anything out there if taught correctly. There are some schools/instructors I read about that I can only dream about. However, looking over the American martital arts landscape I have to say that Taiji has been thrust in the corner and made to put on a non-martial dunce cap. If you are a young stud Taiji is not even in your conscience or on the radar screen when it comes to selecting a martial art. MMA and the external arts of the day dominate gyms and dojos. Taiji remains a second class martial art and I'm afraid as time goes on good Taiji martial training will only exist in magazines and articles of the past or the handful of institutions that have held on to the true nature of Taiji. At least that's the way I see it in America.

[Garland]

?!
I'm not going to rag on you're art. If it makes you happy, do it...but I'm trying to reach out to you guys and explain something. I know arguing styles is like arguing religion or politics, and many of you are too closed in and tied to your respective arts to even listen...but if you can, remove those blinders and take some notice!

okay...usually I'd just bash you're art and call you ignorant wackjobs, but today is special...I'm going to explain why I feel that way about said art.


Tai Chi is not a fighting art. (if anyone can provide me with documentation or video footage, I may RETRACT THIS STATEMENT...but it no one can...tells you something, don't it.) I have never seen, nor do I know of anybody credible and non-partisan who has ever witnessed a tai chi practitioner fight. The movements are great for moving meditation and low-impact exercise...sure, but it should not be seen as a solution to self defense, especially in this day in age where almost everybody has been exposed to fighting through the form of mass media, and almost everybody that does actually KNOW how to fight cross trains in a variety of different arts that allow them to be profficient strikers and grapplers. (not push hands people.)
I am aware of tai chi's long and proud history...yada yada yada...it has grown to become ineffective and irrelevant, just as many other forms throughout the world, including tae kwon do, and capoeria...to name a few. (unless you're a capoeista of the old school that knows how to use a razor).

I know this may sound completely NUTS, but I can understand you guys defending your art with such staunch and, well, bull-headed and stubborn hypotheticals.

Up until grappling arts such as BJJ became super popular, and MMA events came around to pit grapplers against strikers....I used to honestly believe Muay Thai was the say all and end all to a stand-up fight...right up until I saw people that were skilled thai boxers get pummeled on the ground or troussed up like turkeys.

Then I thought MMA stuff was the shit. Think about it; BJJ, SHOOTO, mixed bag blends of striking and grappling arts...these are the things that're rocking the competitive circuit in fightsports.
(even then I realized that within different tournament settings, different rules were in place that would give advantages to different schools of training, i.e. a no kicks to a downed opponent rule would obviously hurt a strikers ability to defend himself, just as a break from a standing clinche could concievably hurt a grappler, or a muay thai guy<prummb> for that matter.)

But then, I saw grapplers lose to strikers who would bite and gouge, and smash and grind in fights on the street.
And I also saw decent striking artists, including boxers, get sucker punched and knocked out.
Wow...FMA would be helpful here, huh?

This led me to an ultimate truth. It isn't about the art, it is about how many tools you have in your arsenal and the technique of those tools (like knives, you need to sharpen and hone technique in order for it to...cut), your "natural" attributes and ability, your will, your demeanor, and...most importantly, INTESTINAL FORTITUDE. The ability to hit and hurt and do whatever it takes to win, and to do so quickly and without reflection.
As the proverb goes; consience makes cowards of us all.
If you are the more agressive fighter, and a better skilled technician with a bag of tricks, with better timing and speed...so long as your eyes are open and you don't become careless you will never lose.
Tai Chi...not a maiming or killing art.
Don't think defense, offense is soooooo much better. Trust me on this.

[47MartialMan]

Hmnnnn-interesting

This led me to an ultimate truth. It isn't about the art, it is about how many tools you have in your arsenal and the technique of those tools (like knives, you need to sharpen and hone technique in order for it to...cut), your "natural" attributes and ability, your will, your demeanor, and...most importantly, INTESTINAL FORTITUDE.
I had learned this "ultimate truth" you speak of 25+ years ago


The ability to hit and hurt and do whatever it takes to win, and to do so quickly and without reflection.
I partially agree.


As the proverb goes; consience makes cowards of us all.
And lack of conscience could have one in jail.


If you are the more agressive fighter, and a better skilled technician with a bag of tricks, with better timing and speed...so long as your eyes are open and you don't become careless you will never lose.
There will always be a lost. No one can win all of the time

[Garland]

I agree...SOME, if not MOST tactics could land you in jail...
HOWEVER...it is better to be tried by twelve than to be carried by six, hesitation is a costly luxury that not many people have in a fight.

And...always win the fight, to even consider the posibility of one's own defeat at the hands of an assailant is losing half the battle. I'm not saying to be brash or to underestimate an attacker, just to perceive ones' self as the ultimate victor. Confidence and control are powerful weapons, and the one in possession of these tools is the one with a better chance, all attributes and skills equal, to win the fight.

Don't think win or lose, even, just hurt. Make your assailant/opponent pay dearly for their transgressions and their unmitigated gaul, to challenge you.

[47MartialMan]

Hmmmnnn....mys years of expereince cannot totally agree upon this...

I agree...SOME, if not MOST tactics could land you in jail...
HOWEVER...it is better to be tried by twelve than to be carried by six, hesitation is a costly luxury that not many people have in a fight.
Yes, I have seen this tried by 12-carried by 6 over and over. It is a over-exaggeration to word and justify the use of physical means to end a result. In a legal system, a trial by 12 could land you in jail. I had a case where I had almost landed in jail from a physical comflict. In jail, there will be more physical conflict, such far worse than the encounter outside the walls of confinement. In jail, you have a large changes of getting killed than outside. I rather not be tried by 12 nor carried by 6. I rather have my senses and martial mentality to not get into a confrontation to begin with. As one matures in life, one will not see a need to get into such situation.


And...always win the fight, to even consider the posibility of one's own defeat at the hands of an assailant is losing half the battle.
To think that one can win is also futile in a means of over-confidence


I'm not saying to be brash or to underestimate an attacker, just to perceive ones' self as the ultimate victor. Confidence and control are powerful weapons, and the one in possession of these tools is the one with a better chance, all attributes and skills equal, to win the fight.
Not so. Attackers and assailants alike have these same tools.


Don't think win or lose, even, just hurt. Make your assailant/opponent pay dearly for their transgressions and their unmitigated gaul, to challenge you.
Foolish to try to hurt someone in such a fashion to not be concerned with the many possibilities or situations, resulting from such action. Sometimes it is best to not fight and/or flee.

[jubaji]

And...always win the fight,

Don't think win or lose, even, just hurt.

Wow, what useful and amazing insight.

[jubaji]

Tai Chi is not a fighting art. (if anyone can provide me with documentation or video footage, I may RETRACT THIS STATEMENT...but it no one can...tells you something, don't it.) I have never seen, nor do I know of anybody credible and non-partisan who has ever witnessed a tai chi practitioner fight. .

Well by the same standard, I can't say that you've ever been in a fight in your life! You are absolutely not in any way a fighter, as far as I can tell (see how that works?)

[47MartialMan]

Well by the same standard, I can't say that you've ever been in a fight in your life! You are absolutely not in any way a fighter, as far as I can tell (see how that works?)

Well said indeed.

[Yhuangbi]

?!




Tai Chi is not a fighting art. (if anyone can provide me with documentation or video footage, I may RETRACT THIS STATEMENT...but it no one can...tells you something, don't it.)

honestly bro, pick up any book by robert w. smith (preferably Chinese Boxing : Masters and Methods one of my favorites). He studied in taiwan from many famous masters. he is very credible and will completely change your views on REAL tai chi chuan, not tai chi dance that is seen so often in america. A true tai chi chuan master would make mohammed ali look like tonya harding playing left tackle for the tampa bay bucceneers with 2 broken legs.

[chris davis 200]

i will try and get together a clip of my teacher doing some tai chi fighting work.

Problem i have is that it is from an instructional DVD so there aint much real speed stuff .... but i will see what i can do.

Chris

[jubaji]

honestly bro, pick up any book by robert w. smith (preferably Chinese Boxing : Masters and Methods one of my favorites). He studied in taiwan from many famous masters. he is very credible and will completely change your views on REAL tai chi chuan, not tai chi dance that is seen so often in america. A true tai chi chuan master would make mohammed ali look like tonya harding playing left tackle for the tampa bay bucceneers with 2 broken legs.

Folks just loooooove to exaggerrate one way or the other!

[47MartialMan]

honestly bro, pick up any book by robert w. smith (preferably Chinese Boxing : Masters and Methods one of my favorites). He studied in taiwan from many famous masters. he is very credible and will completely change your views on REAL tai chi chuan, not tai chi dance that is seen so often in america. A true tai chi chuan master would make mohammed ali look like tonya harding playing left tackle for the tampa bay bucceneers with 2 broken legs.

The keys words here are Tai Ji Quan. The Quan (Chuan) is hardly practiced because most did not learn it and cannot teach others.

[sirmattu]

hmm no youre right tai chi is not a fighting art. thats why the founder of the quan family or tai chi never lost a fight against anyone ( 187-0 ) ever against other martial arts. so youre right it sucks.