Originally posted by Thai Bri
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The Essence of Karate
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Originally posted by Mike BrewerI don't think it helps much. And personally, I think there are better ways. In fact, as evidenced by the fact that I don't do any kata at all, I guess you could say I feel that just about every other way is better.
All I'm saying is that my feeling that way about it doesn't necessarily make it any less valuable for someone else.
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Originally posted by krysIn 1904-1905 there was a war between Japan and Russia, the story says russians got heavy losses in the trenches when it came to close quarter combat. I heard this story too.... Take what works in some Chinese systems and train them under Russia's no-nonsense scientific sports training methods.
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Originally posted by Berserk001There are no roundkicks on kata only straigth cause in the original karate they didnt use them .I never said that kata was enough to win a fight you obviously need sparring but practicing kata can make you moves faster and stronger .
And Kata will not make you faster at hitting hard....... and only Kata like "Sanchin" claim to make you stronger. It involves dynamic tension that is both bad for the blood pressure and nothing compared to elementary weight training.
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I've been studying karate wado-ryu for 3 years, hung gar and tang lang kung fu and wing tsun kuen. Kata and forms are of no use. They arrive to our era through ages, and from tha ancient Eastern cultures. Ask Wanderlei Silva or Frank Shamrock if they are better off with katas or with serious training and sparring. Ask Geoff Thompson if what he learned being a bouncer has anything to do with karate katas.
Neither real sport fighting nor street self-protection have anything to do with katas. So it's high time we should all f*ck the "senseis" and trainers who still get paid for this.
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Originally posted by Thai BriWho mentioned round kicks? I'm on about all kicks, and all strikes.
And Kata will not make you faster at hitting hard....... and only Kata like "Sanchin" claim to make you stronger. It involves dynamic tension that is both bad for the blood pressure and nothing compared to elementary weight training.
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Man I have too. And it does to a degree.
Imagine two twin brothers. Both get exactly the same MA training. However, one does effective weight training and gets to be 200lbs of muscle, whereas the other stays at a puny 150lbs, though he does do extra Kata practice Lol.
Who do you think will hit harder?
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Originally posted by Thai BriMan I have too. And it does to a degree.
Imagine two twin brothers. Both get exactly the same MA training. However, one does effective weight training and gets to be 200lbs of muscle, whereas the other stays at a puny 150lbs, though he does do extra Kata practice Lol.
Who do you think will hit harder?
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Originally posted by Thai BriI never said that strength will beat technique in striking. I said that strength and technique will beat just technique.
Personally I trained Shukokai, and can hit as hard as 99.9% of the martial artists I have met.
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Originally posted by Tom YumI know nothing of Ross/SYSTEMA, but I read somewhere that after the Russians lost a war to Japan in the late 1800's, they studied Chinese systems, took what they found successfull and discarded the rest. Has anyone else heard this before?
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But not only with Chinese systems.
Figure 8 is a common pattern for knive manipulation, watch closely his hands, they are clenched like he is holding knives....
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Originally posted by CKDYes they did do that. But not only with Chinese systems. I do not believe it was because of the war with Japan though. This awesome article tells about the history of the chinese vs the Russians http://members.tripod.com/~CombatMachine/kemp05_e.htm Also check out www.rmax.tv for more history and you can post on their forum if you want more info.
Fascinating story.
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Registered User
- Feb 2003
- 2088
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The law of tyranny:
1. Any power that can be abused will be abused
2. Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it.
3. If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail.
Welcome to the Socialist States of Amerika . Coming soon Jan 20th 2009!
Originally posted by Mike BrewerI should have created a new handle so no one would think this was me, but I wonder:
Are we looking at this issue from a standpoint of why we train, or from the standpoint of the person who asked the question?
Does a round kick performed in a kata work in a fight? Sure it does. The same way a jab practiced in shadow boxing works. It's just the tool. The kata won't develop the ability to apply it, but it can give people a feel for how to throw it. Now, with that said:
I believe 100% that if you want to learn how to fight, kata is the last thing you should be spending your time on. I used to teach with a traditional Shorin-Ryu and Shotokan stylist. He taught his stuff, and I taught contemporary programs. He was a triple crown gold medalist in the nationals for Karate held in Jamaica, and well respected all over as a tough fighter. One day, he asked me if we could do some boxing so he could develop his hand techniques for sparring competition. I told him that I didn't think it was a good idea - that boxing sparring and karate sparring are not only different animals, they don't even live in the same zoo. Still, he insisted. After one session, I came away impressed with the speed of his punches and his initial delivery. He came away with bruised ribs, a fat lip, a bloody nose, and a black eye. And we weren't going too hard at all!
He got hit so often because he was used to hitting once, and locking his punch out. SO he'd land a shot to my chest, and get hit with a 4 or 5 punch combo before he could get up out of whatever stance he'd launched himself into. He'd also throw his shots with total abandon. He told me later that was because he was used to having a ref stop the bout to call a point after a shot landed. He threw everything with total commitment, as if it was the last chance he'd ever have to land a shot. It didn't work very well, because I was able to take most of the shots he landed and give back a great deal more. More often, he'd miss with the really big shots because I was moving like a boxer, forcing him to constantly readjust his position.
Point being, he was really amazed by how different the arts were, and after experiencing that, agreed that boxing may not be a great idea for a karate guy who competes at karate. He also trained regularly with our thai boxers and grapplers after that, and got good pretty fast. Incidentally, his triple crown win in Jamaica came just a few weeks after the sparring session. His observations were:
1. A boxer would suck at karate competition because most don't have the same types of punches and they don't think in terms of "one clean shot."
2. He would suck in boxing because he throws with too much emphasis on offense, no real consideration of defense, and landed in the kinds of deeper stances that traditional karate refs look for. This caused him to be very stationary and flat footed while in range to be hit. Bad juju.
3. Since one of his gold medals was in empty hand kata, and another was in weapons kata, kata held great value for him, personally. In fact, it was two-thirds of his gold medal haul at that tournament.
I couldn't argue one bit.
So, hopefully all of us ultra-realistic street-fighter types out here can look at training with an open enough mind to realize that there is real and significant value to ANY training method, so long as it's properly applied and serves the practitioner in achieving the things he sets out to achieve.
I liked your illustration of the compatibility of Karate and boxing. I also have found it hard to use boxing in a karate tag like environment. It’s hard to box someone when not allowed to hit them in the face or pulling punches, or have limited targets that I can strike like only the abdomen. Against the karate instructor who is the only one I can go full on against it is the same as you and the karate competitor from your story. He does one strike and holds while I cream him with a forward moving multiple hand combination attack while changing angles. It all but limits him to covering up or grabbing on.
Again Mike I know you know the differences between shadow boxing and kata but for those who don’t here is a quick and dirty version of Kata Versus Shadow boxing.
Kata and Shadow boxing have some similar aspects but they are far different beasts.
Some similarities:
Both will give you a good workout, both use visualization, and both use the full spectrum of techniques from their respective systems.
Differences:
kata is fixed and limited, there is only a narrow avenue in which to animate them. Even in visualization you have to imagine a strike that comes to the same target each and every time, so you can initiate the same block and or counter every time to the same target. The attacker comes from the same direction and strikes to the same spot each and every time. In SB You can imagine a gazillion different attacks from any direction to any number of targets that can differ each and every time you perform the SB routine.
In Kata you develop bad habits and reinforce them over time (cocking arms, holding strikes out, and etc). In kata movement, stances, and direction changes are unrealistic. In SB if done correctly movement, stances, footwork, direction changes, and strikes are the same as it is in fighting therefore you do not develop bad habits and reinforce them.
With kata people assume that a person who can perform a flawless powerful looking kata can fight well, but this is not the case. Katas are used to judge a student for belt promotions, but kata has nothing to do with effectiveness. No such standards are placed on shadow boxing.
Kata is confining, unrealistic, and reinforces bad habits. Shadow boxing is dynamic, spontaneous, and develops and reinforces good habits and or proper body mechanics.
There is more to this but this is the short list.
Basically there are 4 categories in martial arts (with a few sub categories or groups of course).
1) Self-defense
2) Professional
3) Sport
4) Self-improvement
*Professional: Those whose professions require them to control subjects with a bit more finesse or controlling them while limiting or preventing injury. Policemen, detention officers, military personal assigned to certain sensitive operations (military police and detention guards), as well as certain other security personal fall in this category. This category are for those who are being paid and need to know specialized techniques based on compliance and limiting injury to the person in which they are trying to control. Beyond this SD and professional are very similar.
*Under the guise of self-improvement comes character, spiritual, and physical development (exercise, getting into shape), and etc. I call this group “the feel gooders”.
So these are your standard goals for the majority of martial artists. Of course there will be some overlap in some of the training methods and modalities.
When we are talking about any aspect of MA training we will interpret any inquiry as to what our own main personal goals and experiences are. So if you are a self-defense oriented guy then a question of “does kata hold value in training?” the answer would be an obvious no. Now if the question was more explicit like “Can practicing Kata help me to obtain my goal of becoming a kata champion?” then the answer would be a resounding yes. So sometimes the confusion really begins when someone asks an ambiguous question such as “is kata relevant?” relevant to what?
To recap:
So is kata relevant?
1) For self-defense? NO!!!
2) For the pro’? NO!
3) For sport? Only if you are competing in kata competitions.
4) For self-improvement? Possibly.
I have already explained why.
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