How tough was Bruce Lee?

[Joe Hubbard]

Toaistscholar

In retrospect Bruce was an inspired athlete that was way ahead of his time in the application of developing what the Zen masters would call “no mind.” In order to be fully present in each and every moment, not just when you are feeling your best, you have to develop the ability to focus your full attention to what is happening right now- this very crystal moment; see that- it’s gone, so pay close attention. These are the exact same philosophical concepts that have enlightened the world of professional sports years after Bruce experimented with it. Bruce was an athlete, not a monk who sat under a waterfall. He dealt with both the internal and the external; he just didn’t put a form to it.

Out

Joe

[jubaji]

I think you are too hung up over the whole 'internal' 'external' thing...

[taoistscholar]

but he spoke so much about the internal aspect of martial arts when he was obviously strictly external in practice. Do you know what i'm saying?

But no doubt he was an AMAZING martial artist. i'm just startin discussion

Anybody feel how i feel?

[Joe Hubbard]

According to Tim Tackett, Bruce never really managed to retain that many students because he was so hard-core and consistently “hands on” with his guys. You also have to remember that the majority of Bruce’s students were all black belts in other systems. This is not to confuse this with his “celebrity students”, I recently saw one of Bruce’s business cards where he was charging these guys $1000 per day way back then. Tackett went on to say that it wasn’t until Bruce died and Dan restarted his backyard JKD group that the JKD student cadre started to build in significant numbers. The story of Bruce breaking Daniel Lee’s jaw rejuvenates Bruce’s hard-core approach and quick temper.

Out

Joe

[Justthefacts]

Specifics

I'm assuming that you're referring to Bruce Lee's quote about swimming on dry land as it pertains to the alleged martial arts masters of his era. I see nothing contradictory about Lee's decision to not compete in tournaments, while criticizing teachers for being out of shape and refusing to "prove" themselves by getting on the mat with their students.

It was clear to anyone who knew him that Lee was in superb physical condition and that he regularly sparred with his students. This included sparring with the likes of Larry Hartsell, Dan Inosanto, Dan Lee, and James DeMile. Lee also sparred with tournament champions Louis Delgado and Chuck Norris, so one could hardly accuse Lee of not practicing what he preached.

In addition, Lee's philosophy of adapting himself to the opponent and evolving as a martial artist was applied in many different ways. For example, the straight blast was Lee's bread and butter technique, yet the nuances of the technique were ever changing. Lee wasn't just a martial arts icon of his time, but of all-time.

Justthefacts

[taoistscholar]

Who else here felt bruce lee did the opposite of what he preached?

[Tant01]

How tough indeed

My stance on Lee's toughness was quite clear in my post. There are two types of toughness in the martial arts world, street fighting ability and competing in the sporting arena. Lee proved that he was a capable street fighter who never backed down from a challenge in his life. We have no data to go by when determining how he would have fared in a kickboxing match or in a point fighting tournament. The recollections of Chuck Norris, Louis Delgado, and George Dillman indicate that Lee would have done quite well, but we'll never know for sure.

Justthefacts

I always wanted to know that myself. Back in the day I did a lot of "testing". I never rolled with Gene LaBelle or sparred with Chuck Norris.
I'm pretty much a nobody, don't even hold rank. But I'm tough and I'm quick. I've kicked a few asses. I wanted to test myself against the very best. I seen him in movies and thought to myself, he ain't all that... I could take him. I know just how I'd do it to. He might be the quickest fighter of all time. He might hit like a truck. He could kick my ass in a heart beat if I let him. There is no way in hell I'd fight a guy like that, I'd just have to kill him.

So I did. Don't tell anyone it was me. My black magic did the trick!

[Justthefacts]

Clear Stance

My stance on Lee's toughness was quite clear in my post. There are two types of toughness in the martial arts world, street fighting ability and competing in the sporting arena. Lee proved that he was a capable street fighter who never backed down from a challenge in his life. We have no data to go by when determining how he would have fared in a kickboxing match or in a point fighting tournament. The recollections of Chuck Norris, Louis Delgado, and George Dillman indicate that Lee would have done quite well, but we'll never know for sure.

Justthefacts

[Ghost]

Bruce Lee was certainly more street tough than most of the martial artists of his era. The only martial artists of the 60's-early 70's that had reputations for street toughness were Fred Wren, Joe Lewis, Louis Delgado, and Thomas LaPuppet. Since Lee did not compete in point or full contact matches, it's difficult to determine how well he would have done in those circumstances. He sparred full contact with the likes of Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell and point sparred with Chuck Norris and Louis Delgado, but it's impossible to measure his abilities without a tangible outcome.

Justthefacts

So what does that mean.

"i think he was really good but there is no proof"

Is that it?

[Justthefacts]

History

Bruce Lee was certainly more street tough than most of the martial artists of his era. The only martial artists of the 60's-early 70's that had reputations for street toughness were Fred Wren, Joe Lewis, Louis Delgado, and Thomas LaPuppet. Since Lee did not compete in point or full contact matches, it's difficult to determine how well he would have done in those circumstances. He sparred full contact with the likes of Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell and point sparred with Chuck Norris and Louis Delgado, but it's impossible to measure his abilities without a tangible outcome.

Justthefacts

[Caveman]

Bruce was wicked fast. He also had a LOT of power behind his kicks and punches. But truth be told that Martial Arts have come a long way since then.

[likeWater90]

bruce lee did have competitive fights, ever watch the bbc series mind,body kick ass moves? long story short its a series where the host (who has extensive martial arts background) travels the world showing different martial arts ect.

in one episode he goes to hong kong and meets the grandson of the man who taught bruce lee wing chun (the grandson is pretty old now lol), now one of the stories mentioned was that, there would regularly be fights organized by teachers and their pupils, this one fight was on a rooftop of a small apartment building, now bruce was getting his ass handed to him and wanted to throw in the towel coz he was stuffed but his teacher forced him to fight and bruce later on won that fight, i dunno if these sort of fights still occur but since then bruce pushed him self further and thats how he turned into a great martial artist. how strong was he? no different from you and me. if you train like he did then you'd probably be at his level, if something has been achieved by someone then theres deffinatly a possibility that it can be done again.

[jubaji]

Re "I'm not sure whether Bruce would be a world champion in MMA (if he were alive today) or not. He wasn't a world champion full contact kickboxer, or a world champion Judoka, or a world champion western wrestler or boxer. He fenced, but was not a world champion fencer. So I don't know about that statement that he would be a world champion in MMA today."

And is being a world champ in those disciplines any kind of gauge as to how he would do in MMA? Is being a champ in any of those fields a pre-requisite to being a world champ in MMA???!!

NO. Your post is ridiculous.

Few if any MMA "world champs" have been good enough to cut it in those other fields or disciplines.

Randy Couture couldnt even get his old arse into the olympics let alone win it.
Sakuaraba was a pro wrestler play fighting for a living.
Lidell would get kayoed by anyone average in K1 . The gRacies were only world champs in Brazil.
On theother side of the coin Hideoka Yoshia an olympic champ in judo was only average in MMA. World champ boxers Ray mercer, Frans Botha and Shannon Briggs have been poor in MMA. A world champ kickboxer maurice smith was a MMA world champion.

So there is no hard and fast rule.

I think Bruce's inate freakish strength, speed and mind would have murdered any modern day MMA fighter under 180.

I think that sucking on the nuts of a dead man has given you brain damage.

[fenwick99]

re:

I think that Bruce was a tough guy. Some of his attributes would have translated well into the ring, while others would have been "lost in translation." Like Royce Gracie, and this is the main point, Bruce in his prime
(or even a 67-year-old Bruce if he were alive today) could have defeated most, if not all, of his internet haters. Internet talkers have taken a more literal beating ever since PRIDE was bought out by UFC. Only Rampage, of the pride guys, has lived up to his hype. Others such as Wanderlei, Crocop,
Shogun have been beaten by guys they were supposed to dominate. All that
remains to be seen is a fight been former pride fighter Anderson Silva and
a 185-lb. Dan Henderson. This may be the fight of the century. If Hendo gets
knocked out by Silva's very-high-level muay thai, Dana White will be smirking
and emmeffing and effing his way to the bank once again, and all of the Internet mouths will ring hollow once more. BTW I don't worship Bruce, nor do I think he was the best. But was he damn good, yes.

[Tant01]

Or not...

I don't know how tough Bruce was, but he was definitely a pioneer. If you read through the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce was studying western boxing and judo and wrestling. In a sense, he was very truly the first Mixed Martial Artist to come out of the 60's/70's.

......

Very truly NOT.

Hate to tell you this but your "facts" are wrong again! He may have been the most well known (popular) mixed martial artist but the KAJUKENBO guys were doing it before BL made his own personal non-traditional kung fu "style".

Some silat guys were adapting Judo and western boxing into their styles too. Is that "MMA"?

You might do some actual RESEARCH before you go spouting your so called "truth" Bodhi...

Just a thought.