Trapping...Does it work?

[tkeplar]

my experience is that few people know how to train sticking as originally taught by bruce lee. few have the wing chun base. few have the needed skills. some of the best methods i have experienced are from the jesse glover and wong shun leung linage of people who trained hard and have had some real life experience. many of the comments i read leave me wondering about the type of training the person is doing. like henry ford said "whether you believe your right or wrong, your right"

tk

[Joe Hubbard]

This reminds me of a story about Rick Young and Geoff Thompson.

If my memory serves me right, Geoff Thompson had made some comments in a magazine suggesting that trapping would not work against a boxer. Rick Young took exception to this and paid Thompson a visit to demonstrate against any of his guys that he could use the skill of trapping against a boxer. As the story reached it's conclusion, Geoff Thompson opinion was converted.

Joe

[Ghost]

lmao, great thread, talk is cheap.
im with mike on this pretty much.

The way i see it though, you guys are jsut talking and talking. its on the trapping guys to show something.
So stick a couple of videos up on youtube, demonstrate what you mean, or shut up basically.
If you cant stick it on youtube then you cant do it. Cos if you could, you would.
So lets see it.

[sgrody]

My three cents added to the fray, I mean discussion.
- I do think that while the general level of much martial art has evolved in recent years, that average human fighting instincts and reactions are the same as they have been since the dawn of something or other. One of those instincts is to try and obstruct strikes (even after they have been successfully delivered), not beautifully by martial art or boxing standards, but an attempt to block or cover nonetheless, and while attacking another line at that point of distraction is a good way to go, a trap is not just a classroom wet-dream fantasy at that point.
- Anecdotally, when my guys interact with various kinds of trained and untrained people willing to move around uncooperatively, it’s not unusual that when their opponent become surprised or overwhelmed by something that they tend to freeze up and become more available to manipulations.
- That being said, stop-hitting, time-hitting and well-timed combination hitting in general is of prime importance along with robust defense and “foul tactics.”
- Whether learning how to fight or how to play jazz, we need to be mentored by someone with higher understanding on a one-to-one basis to really progress to a fine-tuned skill, and unfortunately, the large class environment tends to lead to techniques, drills or patterns that for whatever their relative worth are also so that most people can feel they are learning something. It’s important for both instructors and students to see what works under what conditions including real-time speed and then problem solve (is it the technique, the training method or me where the problem lies?).
- Bruce Lee told Dan Inosanto (paraphrased) “Be more loyal to your own experience than whatever I teach you.” Dan kept some things in the curriculum that Bruce threw out. Though my roots are obvious, my curriculum doesn’t look like the curriculum that I learned, partly because I teach one-to-one and it gets very individual very quickly, and because of what it seems is helpful for my students to “get it.” And by that I mean when I try in real time to get to them, fake them out or surprise them somehow and they deal with it smoothly, then I know I’m on the right track.

[tkeplar]

trapping, sticking, chi sao is best utilized as a back up to a failed attack and or a counter attack for it is more of a countering method than an attacking method, tho if you know how to use it, chi sao can be used offensively.

from all the post i have seen over the years it often appears to me that when someone says that trapping does not work, the real question in my head is how are they training.

having been involved in martial arts and other forms of self-defence for some 35+ years and having trained with some of the top people in this area (trapping) i can only comment on my own training and experience.

if someone wants to do some research then look at some u-tube footage of jesse glover, david peterson, wong shun leung and a few other top instructors in this area.

it does take a lot of training with the right people generally to get enough skill to use this stuff in a real fight. while i do feel a person can learn a lot on their own, it will be very difficult to do it all by yourself. you will need quality feedback from time to time, minimum of a few times a year for some good feedback, perhaps in a seminar, training with someone who really knows what they are doing and see how your improving.

kind regards

thomas Keplar

[fire cobra]

I train both "street" and MMA. I don't think there's as big a difference as some people think. Awareness of biting will make your BJJ better,if I'm doing a triangle right you'll bite your own arm before my groin...

On to trapping. Trapping is an Immobilization Attack. Render a limb immobile so you can strike. If when I say trapping you think "pak sao",you've got a pretty limited view of trapping!

I do both Kali/JKD and MMA. So I do both "tippy tap" stuff and rolling/live sparring. Just different sides of the coin to me. "Tippy tap" builds my attributes for combat. Not everything has to have an immediate short term value. In the long run,handball would help my hand/eye coordination and cardio. Both of which would help my combatives without an immediate "fighting" application.

So when asked "does trapping work?" I would ask what's your definition of "trapping"? Then I would say "only if you're using it when necessary".

My instructor said to me: No obstruction=no trap.

Just my opinion...

And a good and valid one at that sir,in my opinion that is.

[Wi-Stickboxer]

Greetings fellow insomniacs!

I train both "street" and MMA. I don't think there's as big a difference as some people think. Awareness of biting will make your BJJ better,if I'm doing a triangle right you'll bite your own arm before my groin...

On to trapping. Trapping is an Immobilization Attack. Render a limb immobile so you can strike. If when I say trapping you think "pak sao",you've got a pretty limited view of trapping!

I do both Kali/JKD and MMA. So I do both "tippy tap" stuff and rolling/live sparring. Just different sides of the coin to me. "Tippy tap" builds my attributes for combat. Not everything has to have an immediate short term value. In the long run,handball would help my hand/eye coordination and cardio. Both of which would help my combatives without an immediate "fighting" application.

So when asked "does trapping work?" I would ask what's your definition of "trapping"? Then I would say "only if you're using it when necessary".

My instructor said to me: No obstruction=no trap.

Just my opinion...

[Wi Kali Group]

Back on Track

First off I try to stay anon on sites like this for one reason. The sheer number of unstable people on the web. But it has a added advantage. If I'm a nobody then people will be skeptical and only be swayed by my opinion if it makes sense to them. Where if I were some big shot with credentials they might follow me even if it didn't pass the smell test. (I am only speaking about myself. I am not claiming to be a big shot in any way. Or trying to impugne anyone else in this comment.) Also when I speak of my betters I am in no way trying to put words in their mouth. If mentioned by name it will only be in two cases. If its something from a seminar or on a DVD. In both cases it was put out in public and should be ok to mention. Please allow that my memory may be off or I may have misunderstood the lesson.

Now the question was Trapping Does it work? The short answer is maybe. First we have to clear up a few things. For me when talking about trapping I look at it maybe differently than say someone else.

Trapping to me means the range. Maybe to some it means the classical trapping hands. But to me that would shift the question to wing chun. IMHO trapping range is the least understood and hardest to train. And it lends it self to the highest failure rate of the 4 ranges. I've made the comment about usually the people that knock JKD/Kali simply couldn't do it. I stand by that but it need some explanation. Just in JKD you have 4 ranges to train Kicking, Boxing, Trapping & Grappling. You can make it real simple striking & grappling. But lets look at the 4 ranges. This is not meant to be exhaustive just and example. Well leave Kali alone as its more complicated IMHO.

Kicking has
Highline, Lowline, power kicks, snap kicks, harassment kicks, spin kicks, jump kicks, combinations, footwork & defense of all them.
Tools- Foot, Toe, Shin, instep, heel.

Boxing has
5 basic punches, loads of combinations, footwork simple & complicated, simple & complicated defense, counter punching, stop hits.
Tools- Hand, fingers

Trapping has
Most strikes can hit. you and your opponent are able to dish out the most damage here.
Tools - foot, shin, toe, instep, knee, hand, head, elbow/forearm, hand

Grappling has
Most of the strikes from grappling but they are harder to pull off as they can tend to be smothered.
Tools - Heel, hand, fingers, teeth, knee, elbow/forearm.

Now looking at all of this can anyone honestly say that everyone they have ever worked out with or trained was good at all 4 ranges or everything in each range. We all have our strong areas and weak areas. EF talked about a visit to an old school and a lack of progress. This can be it. I've said that you have some schools and instructors not training a progression just re training the same 2-3 years over and over again. So they get to a point and never get any better.

Also even if you have the best instructor(s) in the world some people are going to just naturally be better at some areas than others. So if you train one area and don't get good and move to another area and say kick ass. It is more likely you are just better in that area than others. I could make a great case for how worthless high kicks are. I could back it up with my own training experience. But the truth is I'm just not a flexible person.

So anyone who wants to say explore trapping. The best advice I can give is look for training and advice from someone who is thinks its valuable. Ask yourself would you hire a plumber who didn't believe in indoor plumbing. No matter how good of a case they made for outhouses. Or a roofer who claimed you can't stop all the leaks no matter what you do. Of course you wouldn't.

If you want to train trapping here is the rub. While you are training the basic & advanced traps, learning hubud, chi sau and the rest of the things in trapping range. You have to seriously train at least boxing & grappling range. All three would be best. You don't have to be good enough to enter a ring in long range. And you should focus your grappling on blocking a takedown and what to do if it don't work. Simple basic things. By the time your other ranges are ok your trapping should be good enough to start functionalizing it. The following Sifu's Vunak, Tackett & M. Denny would probably be a good place to look for advice on this.

You need to be good enough in long range to survive and enter trapping range. And you need the grappling to avoid takedowns and survive if you screw up.

And lastly the biggest mistake I've seen IMHO is people equate trapping with the fantasy (usually used to discredit it) of combat hubud or chi sau. In training the mix is supposed to be something like 90% trapping 10% hitting. In a fight it should be 10% trapping (or less) and 90% (or more) hitting. You are not planning to trap in a fight. You are going to hit. When something gets in your way remove it, go thru it , or go around it.

And on the trapping drills (or any dead drills). They are fun and useful at least in the beginning. They build coordination, confidence, muscle memory. But they made up over 60% of my training for the first 3 years.

Tangent: I had two mentors. One who was a seminar instructor (got his cert long distance) and one that moved to train under directly under his sifu. And then moved back years later.

And looking back on it I think my growth peaked or at least was not as much from them. The thing that changed my training drastically

Disclaimer: I am not advocating anyone do the physical end of this with out qualified instructors involved.

My regular instructor was very good. He was more on the self perfection side. He built up my technical side with I think more dead drills than live ones. When my other mentor moved back he was training me in a knife drill I had done many times. Some would call it a two person form. In the middle of it he pulled out a real knife. I freaked he talked my thru it kept me doing the drill. My heart was racing, all the effects of fear. But it was the same drill. Done a tad slower than with a wooden dagger. He explained to me that now when I do any drill try to juice up my mind the same way. It's not as good as the real thing but you get more out of the drill than just going thru the motions. Anything you can do to force more intensity out of your brain will greatly improve your dead drills. Mike Tyson used to hit pads visualizing punching thru an opponents head. Arnold used to visualize orgasms when he pumped.

Hope this helps anyone the way it helped me.

[Wi Kali Group]

On the Buzz

If you feel I had anything to do with the Buzz that is the nicest complement I've have from an argument.

In regards to my posts. I don't mind "now that you've calmed down a little ". For some reason I write angry. At first I was annoyed. I was thinking great another brain dead "alive" cultist bashing an art they barely understand. Then it moved to confusion after your website. Reading your posts I've never heard an apprentice of Dan's (Ok I've met less than 20 not exactly a good baseline) let alone an associate bash anyone like that. And I couldn't understand Paul or Rick (again not an expert just an informed opinion) making anyone an instructor who bashes the system Dan taught them with. That was my impression back then. I really wasn't pissed off (better than being pissed on I guess) till you referred to it as something that needed to be shoveled. After the rash of morons I see on you tube it never dawned on me maybe it came out harsher than you intended.

Of all the people who appeared to me to be bashing JKD & Kali I've only had a few where their was some kind of exchange of idea's. Most were like the few I got somewhere in the user CP (none from mike he at least has the integrity to make his public and take the heat).

And as far as leaving that is up to you. But its really not necessary. At least in my opinion. I'm not bashing your point of view or your right to it, (please no rebuttals at least it was not my intention. I did mention being silent and I'm sure it came out diff than intended my bad.) just your way of implying its the only way everyone else is going to do it. We are all different animals. Or you way of implying that certain area's (like trapping) are rubbish and won't work unless your fighting a guy in a coma (I'm exaggerating).(I've try to expand later in a diff post). The thing is I really think your view is valid and more importantly useful. Again right up until you imply its the only way or more valuable than others.

Look at the big picture. We have people that specialize in OJKD, Paul, Larry & Jeff each had 1 area as a major trapping, grappling & Kali. If you keep going in the direction you are you could be the JKD MMA expert. IMHO the big problem you have right now is your instructors got you to this nexus. Like all of Dan's instructors you have to find your own path. I'm guessing that is why none of them care about your opinions on training (It's part of your growth). Just please don't urinate on the other path's please. Other people are coming behind you. Like any good camper who is moving farther on the trail pack up your trash. Your instructors seem to be giving you your space to explore and express but like them try not to discourage others just cause they are not in the same place you are.

This is right off Dan's website

We are all climbing different paths through the mountain of life, and we have all experienced much hardship and strife.
There are many paths through the mountain of life, and some climbs can be felt like the point of a knife.
Some paths are short and others are long, who can say which path is right or wrong?
The beauty of truth is that each path has its own song, and if you listen closely you will find where you belong.
So climb your own path true and strong, but respect all other truths for your way for them could be wrong.

-Dan Inosanto


And on the aliveness lets keep this a discussion in the abstract. I have basically the same problems with the guy's group in the U.S. I did with you (at first). He's seems to be trashing other people and they way they train. He appears to be at heart an MMA factory (nothing at all wrong with that). But even if he was by far the best MMA coach and his system was by far the best it would still be wrong to trash other people (if for no other reason than libel laws why risk a law suit I'd rather be training). I can't speak for the grappling cause I don't follow it. But on the MMA end when you look at the records. His franchise might have a volume of people fighting. But you never see them in the big show. At local and regional events they hold their own. But the fighters their guys can point to (that are in the big show) didn't really seem to do well tell they left for different MMA schools. I believe in coincidences like I believe in God. I believe but I've never seen either one. So my common sense tells me maybe "aliveness" is a good school of thought but sadly far from the final word on training.

I'll try to form a post on trapping (and get back into the subject intended here) and expand on this. But the JKD community when through this whole argument back in the early 90's. Now its MMA & BJJ back then it was Boxing. That was what you heard. That crap would never work against a boxer. If its so good why don't they have the boxing champ belt.

Tangent: I view this as diff than what I posted above on Aliveness and MMA. They are actually training MMA. JKD was at its heart for self defense. Too many people don't see the diff in training for sports vs training for self defense. The main differences Rules, equipment and a Ref. Not that some sports don't work for self defense. But their are some differences.

That's the same as asking if Jordan was really such a good basketball player why he sucked at baseball. They are different activities with diff rules and diff attributes needed. Same with sport fighting and self defense. The main diff now is MMA is about a close as you can get to real fighting and have it legal sport fighting. So it does have valid lessons to teach. Both in its training & application.

It common for an eye to get poked. It more common for a kick or knee to the balls. If you train them well you will have an advantage over someone who doesn't. On the ground game. After hearing Uncle Vu talk about things like the "Primate Groin Bite" I'm not real comfortable with any triangles in BJJ. Any of the triangles put main arteries: leg, arm or neck just too close. It happens on occasion for MMA to clip and elbow and damage a hand. In the ring until the tape comes off they can still use it most of the time. Now if you train it you can make it happen much more often. Even against a decent boxer. Unless they can't feel pain on the street they usually react much better for you.

For the record I'm in a good mood. In the future I'll try to use the icons to reflect my mood :-)

[Crafty Dog]

I wrote:

"Concerning your words that I "epitomize martial arts insecurity" , , , umm, , , I think if you go back and read my words, you will see that I did not refer to you. I simply spoke of my own experiences and in generalities-- which apparently you assumed were aimed at you"

You wrote:

"Likewise Marc you have done the same with my comments. That was not aimed directly at you, I know your work very well."

Perhaps I flatter myself, but I like to think that my reading comprehension is above average. I could swear I see my name in the following from you:

"Whenever anyone expresses such a point of view people jump to two immediate conclusions 1. That the person expressing the view couldn't make it work (Wi Kali Group) or 2. That the person wasn't doing it right (Mr Denny). That is the epitomy of an insecure martial arts culture that fears for it's survival - because its immediate response is "its not us, its you"."

You continue with:

"My point was, and correct me if I am wrong, you insinuated in your post that if someone challenges a training method it means that they are doing that training method wrong."

I hereby correct you. You ARE wrong :-) I simply said this:

"As best as I can tell, where the problem often lies for some in this seemingly eternal conversation is that they did DPTTDs for a long time but did not include fighting or even sparring in their training method. Then they pop their cherry and if things go poorly they have a moment of satori wherein they conclude that DPTTDs are BS."

It can be easy in an internet forum for a conversation to become a debate and easier yet to think/assume that a comment intended generally is really meant individually/personally. My comment was intended generally. If you have included sparring/fighting as part of your training method, then it does not apply to you.

You wrote:

"What's interesting is I was a fan of your teachings and writings back in the late 80's and early 90's - you certainly challenged your fair share of sacred cows "

Sounds like I have lost you along the way :-) Anyway FWIW, I think I continue to challenge the sacred cows-- one of which IMHO has come to be the paradigm which I understand you to espouse. To be more precise, I challenge only one part of this paradigm-- that it is the only way. Lots of people have fine results with this way, and though the feeling may not be reciprocated, if they are happy with it then I am happy for them.

Anyway, enough of that. Turning now to matters of substance, I wrote:

"there is short term, middle term, and long term training. If I understand your words correctly, your focus tends towards short term results. If I infer conrrectly, the sylllogism is that over the midle and long term this will yield faster and better results. Here we disagree. I think middle and long term training should be part of the mix as well."

You responded with:

"OK, my take on that. In any form of functional combat there are only fundementals (sic). Your understanding and performance in those fundementals is your short, medium and long term goal - and it starts from day one. The concept taught in martial arts is that you have to go through a beginner, intermediate and advanced stage where only at the advanced stage do you begin to master the fundementals. I disagree with such an approach. The constant additon of "self-perfection" drills over the medium and long term are not only unnecessary they are counter-productive. The entire martial arts industry is built upon complicating the uncomplicated."

I can see I have failed to communicate effectively so far. Perhaps with another effort I can succeed?

FIRST POINT:

I am NOT advocating "mastering the fundamentals only at the advanced stage"!!! In that I appear to be quite a bit older than you I get to say that you agree with me on this. LOL

Amongst the general principles informing DBMA we have "Primal probabilities first". We assume a big aggro f*cker that we call "Mongo" (tip of the hat to Mel Brooks' "Blazing Saddles" and the role played by Alex Karras here) and we assume that Mongo comes to smash. We assume Mongo is strong, fit, and athletic. THAT is where we begin. We do NOT begin with years of "Karate Kid" and "Wax on, wax off" training.

SECOND POINT:

I disagree with the notion that there are "only fundamentals". For example, if I want to get someone up to fight speed as quickly as possible, I will focus on single stick and some "Los Triques" basics. Los Triques is our subsystem that blends Kali and Krabi Krabong (KK is the military weaponry system from which the ring sport of Muay Thai descends. The 3 Ks of Kali and KK produces the unfortunate acronym of KKK so I generated the neologism of "Los Triques"-- my idea of humor-- but I digress). However, if that is all that person were to continue to do, I think his ceiling over time might turn out to be rather low.

Another example: Boxing is a great hand striking structure. However it is limited to forehanded thrusts. For the short term, this is great. For the middle and longer term however IMHO better results can be achieved for many people by bringing in Kali skill sets, (supplemented by Jun Fan) wherein we get two or three strikes per beat (shift of body weight). Though intended for the street, in DBMA this we seek to test in the cage with our subsystem "Kali Tudo" (tm). This idiom of movement has a strong tendency to provoke trapping opportunities all over the place-- AND it takes longer to establish to a functional level.

Of course sometimes the guy manages to shoot a double leg, and then it is time for what I call a "silat gator roll".

Tangent: The Silat Gator Roll is based on an idea that Frank Trigg showed me about 6 years ago at the RAW Gym. He said "This is for when you are late with your sprawl against the double leg." This being a common problem for me (and most 50 somethings I suspect!) I was all ears. I loved what he showed, but couldn't get it to come out in quite the same way. What kept happening for me had more of a silat flavor to it, so I made up the name "Silat Gator Roll".

I close with a small story. A few years back I had just finished filling in for Guro Inosanto's Kali class and a visiting student came up afterwords to thank and compliment me. I expressed my thanks for his kind words and then he asked me who my teacher was. He was shocked when I answered "Guro Inosanto" and I was shocked that he was shocked for it is obvious to me that I would be nothing without what I have learned from Guro Inosanto over the years. That said, as I reflected upon this moment it became clear to me just how different I am as a teacher from Guro I-- which is as it should be.

As Guro I. teaches from Bruce Lee,

Research your experience
Accept what is useful
Reject what is useless
Add what is your own

A famous economist was once asked what he did when the facts proved him wrong. He answered "I change my mind. What do you do?"

FWIW my experience has been that some of what I first thought to be useless, turned out to be some of best stuff I know-- and some of it that I had thought to be awesome was , , , not. Who knows what changes in my thinking that tomorrow may bring? Not me!

Anyway, the Adventure continues!
Crafty Dog

The first thing I want to say is this is a great debate, its the first time in a few months I've felt a buzz coming on here.

Just to re-iterate, I genuinely don't have a problem with people bashing me or my point of view. I'm not daft, if you have courage in the conviction of your own opinions then don't be all shocked when other people respond accordingly. Its cool.

I am aware, and have been for some time, that the point of view I am expressing on JKD and Kali can be seen as offensive and disrespectful to the people I have learned from, and I do know its hard for me to explain why I really don't mean it like that. In truth, my future in JKD is very uncertain, because I have to follow the experiences of my gut - just as any man does. I think that is going to lead me away from the JKD family, to a place where I can explore my own experiences and express my point of view - without feeling like I have to mind my P's and Q's. I'm just an honest, direct guy, and I do have passion about my beliefs.

EF - I know the way your group works, and its very similar to how my Thursday night session works. We are just a group of guys from all different kinds of backgrounds who get together and predominently just find the truth in sparring. The results that come off in that environment are achieved from many different arts - however those results are enhanced by adopting a method of learning that circumvents unnecessary BS. That's the point I keep trying to make. Its not the art, is the stigma of how you should learn that art, which seems to have become set in stone. As we've discussed before I'd love to make it out to your group, and thanks for your balanced post.

Wi Kali Group - I do understand many of the points made in your post and (if you don't mind me saying) now that you've calmed down a little I see much sense and wisdom in your point of view. I just wanted to make one comment on the individual you are talking about, I know exactly who you mean, I have trained with that gentleman and his guys. Regardless of what you think of his point of view, which I agree has been controversial at times and I don't agree with everything he says, his training methods are WAY ahead of anything I have seen - and all of his guys are absolutely top notch, without exception. Its very possible that he is the next step on my journey.

Hey remember guys, its about the process and not the product

[Wi Kali Group]

Hopefully this won't inflame anything.

At an old seminar in the late 80's (I'm as correct as memory allows) Sifu Vunak tried to correct a misconception on JKD. The skuttlebut was that JKD thought highkicks were worthless and didn't do them. I believe he explained that in literature JKD people tried to explain Bruce's concept of kicking to the head and punching a foot in a fight. And that they went overboard to make a point. He explained he did TKD & Savate both heavy in high kicking. He explained the value of high kicking: Flexibility, Balance, cardio not to mention being able to do them so you could train to defend them.

The thing with trapping is (as it was explained to me) it will almost never look remotely like the training. If you hit a trap you will blast in with a hit and most people will drop, cover or run. Or you will miss and end up tied up or hit. In a few limited scuffles I've had much better luck tipping an elblow into the fist. Alot easier to do for me. Most people quit after an elbow or two.

On the school visit. That is why I left the school I used to train at years ago. But it wasn't the Sifu's fault totally. We had a high turnover. People would come in train for 3-18 months and leave. The last 2 or 3 years I was either assisting him or (with another student) teaching for him while he was gone. We would teach the same 6 months of training to revolving students. If he would have had a advanced class or a senior student class I'd have probably stuck around.

From what I've seen on Mike I don't really disagree with him until (and I don't think I'm the only one) he comes off like the final word on what works and don't for everyone (Last post excluded). It seems like that is why Sifu Dan spends so much time exposing his students to a wide selection of arts. If Dan knew for sure what would work for everyone he would just have a simple system. But after that last post maybe he just comes off that way. Giving a simple answer to a complex question isn't easy. And is given to misunderstanding.

I really don't intend to bash Mike or anyone like him. But he has to understand that with him putting his instructors credentials on his website and training. He not only represents his school and teaching but them also. Any ill will he generates will be shared in some way by Dan, Paul & Rick. It's not just his future students he's affecting but theirs also. How is he going to feel if Dan, Paul or Rick tells him a rash of students contacted the school to train the real JKD not the crap they shovelled to Mike for 17 years (please take this as intended mike a question not an insult.

From what I've seen their is a real cult of aliveness in the US. The main guy (based on what I can find on the net) was or was claiming to be a JKD instructor. He was certing JKD instructors. And just bashing (much like mike) all non-alive training. He didn't appear to be JKD but MMA (not bashing just stating what it appears). He no longer claims to be a JKD instructor (just influenced and exposed to it) So it appears he wasn't or he lost it. But they must be very insecure in what they do they have to rip on anyone else (them mike not you - I'm really trying not to re-flame this).

(P.S. I'm not mentioning anyone's name so if anyone out their feels insulted It's not my fault you have a guilty concience.)


Your right on some schools and the blending ranges. They will either learn or not. Some may even blame the arts for not working together. But lets be honest blending can be the hardest part.


And on the adding. This is either from a Uncle Vu seminar or his panther tapes (affected by bong resin, barley & hops & old age) everyone wants to blend all of an art they like. The way Bruce & Dan did is was to blend selection of arts. Maybe only 1 technique or a mentality or a training method. (I'm trying to remeber the jist of his comment not word for word.)


Hey great post keep it up.

[Wi Kali Group]

a minor correction.

I was trying to quote (probably poorly & from memory) something P. Vunak said on either one of his tapes or at a seminar. It was in the context of someone saying Paul and Dan were running around telling other artists they were wrong and only JKD was right. Paul had said something (I think off his old panther production tapes) about why a style with a hand on a hip would not work in JKD. He was explaining about the concept of economy of motion. I was not implying or claiming Paul was implying that it couldn't be done. As I remember he never said it couldn't be done. Just why JKD did not do it. Just that is what I remeber of my early JKD training. I was trying to rebut a smear on two instructors I admire.

Sorry for any confusion or insult.

IMHO, in some cases this is true and in other cases it is not

No problem Marc, you have a wealth of experience to qualify that statement, and I respect your opinion.

there is short term, middle term, and long term training. If I understand your words correctly, your focus tends towards short term results. If I infer conrrectly, the sylllogism is that over the midle and long term this will yield faster and better results. Here we disagree. I think middle and long term training should be part of the mix as well.

OK, my take on that. In any form of functional combat there are only fundementals. Your understanding and performance in those fundementals is your short, medium and long term goal - and it starts from day one. The concept taught in martial arts is that you have to go through a beginner, intermediate and advanced stage where only at the advanced stage do you begin to master the fundementals. I disagree with such an approach. The constant additon of "self-perfection" drills over the medium and long term are not only unnecessary they are counter-productive. The entire martial arts industry is built upon complicating the uncomplicated.

Concerning your words that I "epitomize martial arts insecurity" , , , umm, , , I think if you go back and read my words, you will see that I did not refer to you. I simply spoke of my own experiences and in generalities-- which apparently you assumed were aimed at you

Likewise Marc you have done the same with my comments. That was not aimed directly at you, I know your work very well. My point was, and correct me if I am wrong, you insinuated in your post that if someone challenges a training method it means that they are doing that training method wrong. In general terms, in my experience, that has been the trademark of an insecure martial arts mindset. I know you don't personally have that mindset, but you did offer it as a rationale in your post, hence my comment. What's interesting is I was a fan of your teachings and writings back in the late 80's and early 90's - you certainly challenged your fair share of sacred cows

[Crafty Dog]

"What I have said, to be absolutely clear, is precisely this: Many of the methods taught in Jeet Kune Do and Kali have fallen behind in the evolution of training when it comes to producing results in a more direct and efficient manner. I am not saying, and have never said, that they do not work. What I am saying is that they are unnecessarily convoluted and contrived, compared to more direct training methods that will have an impact on the student in a far shorter amount of time."

IMHO, in some cases this is true and in other cases it is not.

a) Sometimes the drills are used for purposes other than which they were intended. For example, when GM Leo Giron was in the jungles of the Philippines fighting the Japanese, he needed safe drills to prepare his bolo skills before going out on patrol. The man already had many ECQ kills to his credit, he simply needed to keep his skills sharp without risking injury. OTOH someone without fighting experience might be poorly served by doing the same drills he did and nothing else.


b) Following a discussion by Guro Inosanto, there is short term, middle term, and long term training. If I understand your words correctly, your focus tends towards short term results. If I infer conrrectly, the sylllogism is that over the midle and long term this will yield faster and better results. Here we disagree. I think middle and long term training should be part of the mix as well. See the relevant discussion towards the end at

Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts

For a discussion specifically on trapping please see

Dog Brothers Inc. Martial Arts

"Whenever anyone expresses such a point of view people jump to two immediate conclusions 1. That the person expressing the view couldn't make it work (Wi Kali Group) or 2. That the person wasn't doing it right (Mr Denny). That is the epitomy (sic) of an insecure martial arts culture that fears for it's survival - because its immediate response is "its not us, its you". If I have been doing it all wrong or have been unable to make it work, I doubt very much that my teachers would have asked me to represent their art. Marc, I respect your experience and your views, but my training has always majored on sparring and fighting. I have been in the ring, on the mat, and on the pavement - and it is precisely those experiences that form my opinion."

Concerning your words that I "epitomize martial arts insecurity" , , , umm, , , I think if you go back and read my words, you will see that I did not refer to you. I simply spoke of my own experiences and in generalities-- which apparently you assumed were aimed at you.

If you have found a way that works better for you, then great. There are plenty of people for whom DDTTDs simply do not resonate. Cool.

For me, and in my experience for most, but not all, of those whom I teach, DDTTDs definitely add to what can be achieved and without them the excellence that can be achieved is diminished.

The Adventure continues,
Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny