Trapping...Does it work?

[Wi Kali Group]

Really not bad.

- What's wrong with being negative? If I want to criticise something then I will. There's far too many people in martial arts polishing their halos and talking about how humble and positive they are - and its mostly bullshit. A lot of what I am saying on here are the things that I hear people whisper at the back of seminars, I'd rather be up front about my thoughts.

Nothing wrong with that. But your being negative as you are could discourage new people from getting the same benifit you have from JKD. It tends to come off like the training is worthless cause it didn't work for you.

- What I have said, to be absolutely clear, is precisely this: Many of the methods taught in Jeet Kune Do and Kali have fallen behind in the evolution of training when it comes to producing results in a more direct and efficient manner. I am not saying, and have never said, that they do not work. What I am saying is that they are unnecessarily convoluted and contrived, compared to more direct training methods that will have an impact on the student in a far shorter amount of time.

Almost all of this in an opinion based on your training. And I think you have said trapping doesn't work. Or you have at least implied it. And even in this comment you fail to take into account something we will never know. Would the far more direct training methods worked as well without the base you built up in your years of JKD. You can't honestly say can you.

- Whenever anyone expresses such a point of view people jump to two immediate conclusions 1. That the person expressing the view couldn't make it work (Wi Kali Group) or 2. That the person wasn't doing it right (Mr Denny). That is the epitomy of an insecure martial arts culture that fears for it's survival - because its immediate response is "its not us, its you". If I have been doing it all wrong or have been unable to make it work, I doubt very much that my teachers would have asked me to represent their art. Marc, I respect your experience and your views, but my training has always majored on sparring and fighting. I have been in the ring, on the mat, and on the pavement - and it is precisely those experiences that form my opinion.

Well those are the two most logical conclusions.

- For the sake of absolute clarity I will state my point one last time. Many of the methods I have been taught in Jeet Kune Do and Kali, the ones that I would define as no longer in my training, have at some level in some way had a benefit on my ability - that is not in question. The crux of my realisation is that when I stepped out into what I have experienced as more alive functional arts, the same benefits were right there from day one and taught in a far more efficient and logical manner. That's all I'm saying, I hardly think its a revelation. Surely, if we can teach people to become more effective in a more efficient way, saving them time and money, that is a good thing right? Or is it that somewhere in that last sentence I've hit upon the problem?

I'm all done, thank you for listening.

Since you said it helped you. Don't you think it might help people coming here for info to maybe get the base training to start and then like you after say a few years (or 17) figure out what works for them. We have a lot of people coming here looking for schools. And alot of them don't even have my training let alone maybe yours or def Full Instrucors like M. Denny. They might not put your comments in the right perspective. So instead of comming to the correct conclusion it didn't work for you (to your satisfaction) so you moved on (after it helped you). They might figure its crap. If you don't put this huge disclaimer on your comments they will be more often than not be taken the wrong way. Also if you discourage someone from getting the good base training some have had. They could do what it looks like (I'm talking apperance not substance) you are doing and just think they are going to mix Boxing, BJJ & Thai Boxing (Or what ever they think you are training). With out what ever Dan & Paul impressed on you on mixing and blending the arts. Do you really want to do that to someone. Dan & JKD has done so much to help people in the arts do you wan't to be the one to toss up road blocks even on accident.

To prevent my point of view being misrepresented by a somewhat emotional tirade, I'll clarify my points one more time, and then all are free to agree, disagree, ignore or rant away:

- Guro Inosanto, Rick Faye, Paul Vunak and other very respected members of the Inosanto family are my teachers and my friends. I have not, at any stage, directed my comments at them or their teaching of me. And here is the thing on that - the training in other arts that started to shift my perspective on JKD came from these instructors. There is no disrespect here, just an expression of personal opinion. Rick Faye said at a seminar a number of years ago "I know Mike has some pretty strong preferences on some aspects of what I teach over others, and that's cool, all I offer is a menu to choose from". So lets divorce my point of view on my training and JKD, from a point of view on my teachers - because the two are completely different things.

- What's wrong with being negative? If I want to criticise something then I will. There's far too many people in martial arts polishing their halos and talking about how humble and positive they are - and its mostly bullshit. A lot of what I am saying on here are the things that I hear people whisper at the back of seminars, I'd rather be up front about my thoughts. We're adults on here and I don't feel the need to wrap my point of view in cotton wool. If you're offended by it and want to get all touchy and start throwing shit at my name then away you go, like I said at the start I'm not interested in your opinion of me.

- What I have said, to be absolutely clear, is precisely this: Many of the methods taught in Jeet Kune Do and Kali have fallen behind in the evolution of training when it comes to producing results in a more direct and efficient manner. I am not saying, and have never said, that they do not work. What I am saying is that they are unnecessarily convoluted and contrived, compared to more direct training methods that will have an impact on the student in a far shorter amount of time.

- Whenever anyone expresses such a point of view people jump to two immediate conclusions 1. That the person expressing the view couldn't make it work (Wi Kali Group) or 2. That the person wasn't doing it right (Mr Denny). That is the epitomy of an insecure martial arts culture that fears for it's survival - because its immediate response is "its not us, its you". If I have been doing it all wrong or have been unable to make it work, I doubt very much that my teachers would have asked me to represent their art. Marc, I respect your experience and your views, but my training has always majored on sparring and fighting. I have been in the ring, on the mat, and on the pavement - and it is precisely those experiences that form my opinion.

- For the sake of absolute clarity I will state my point one last time. Many of the methods I have been taught in Jeet Kune Do and Kali, the ones that I would define as no longer in my training, have at some level in some way had a benefit on my ability - that is not in question. The crux of my realisation is that when I stepped out into what I have experienced as more alive functional arts, the same benefits were right there from day one and taught in a far more efficient and logical manner. That's all I'm saying, I hardly think its a revelation. Surely, if we can teach people to become more effective in a more efficient way, saving them time and money, that is a good thing right? Or is it that somewhere in that last sentence I've hit upon the problem?

I'm all done, thank you for listening.

[Wi Kali Group]

Thank You

Thanks Mark (This is Mark Denny right)

I felt like I was in an episode of the twilight zone where Dan wasn't a great martial artist and his training methods didn't create people like Larry and Paul. Thanks for a dose of reality.

[Crafty Dog]

In the Dog Brothers we have fighters whose paths do and those whose paths don't include "dead pattern tippy tappy drills".

Most of the best fighters tend to have DPTTD. Those of you who have seen our DVD "A Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack" may remember the voice-over discussion during one of the staff fights therein wherein an 80 pound smaller fighter (175lbs vs. 255 pounds IIRC) seriously kicks ass (fight finishes with a ruptured ear drum) with superior staff handling skills developed through sombrada.

As the punch of an old cowboy TV western of my youth used to go "No brag, just fact" I have put more students on the field of "Dog Brothers Gatherings of the Pack" than anyone else by quite a bit.

As a teacher I may not be the right man for teaching lots of sombrada, but I find I can take someone with a decent Inosanto Blend background quite far quite quickly.

As a teacher I do use plenty of the DPTTDs in my teaching. As a teacher I have developed DPTTD of my own to help me help prepare both my students and me (back when I was still fighting). At first these drills may need to be learned in fixed patterns so as to permit precise biomechanical skill instillation, but then most of them go on into a state of Play.

Concerning trapping in particular, I have expressed myself previously in this thread. I think it works just fine. Currently one of my sparring partners is Kenny Johnson, who was Noguiera's MMA Wrestling Coach last season on TUF and who currently trains Anderson Silva and BJ Penn. He finds what I do quite intriguing and recently we shot footage of the both of us teaching my Kali Tudo class together.

As best as I can tell, where the problem often lies for some in this seemingly eternal conversation is that they did DPTTDs for a long time but did not include fighting or even sparring in their training method. Then they pop their cherry and if things go poorly they have a moment of satori wherein they conclude that DPTTDs are BS.

When I began fighting and things went poorly the conclusion I drew was that I needed to do more fighting. As I did so, I began to understand my training in a different way. I was a good but not great athlete-- what made the difference for me in my fighting was what I had learned physically AND mentally from my DPTTD training.

[Wi Kali Group]

Jesus man, why are you getting so bent out of shape?

The guy is just sharing his honest views from his experiences, and passing comment on the training methods of an art, .

If this was true he'd be more possitive and less negative.

Your post is basically saying he should keep his mouth shut out of respect for the art and for his teachers.

Nothing farther from truth. I did ask why he didn't start a tread talking about all the positive aspects of his training. I'd personally like to know more about his alive training. I think he makes a lot of sense right up tell he tell people not to train things just cause he can't find value in them.

And finally, do you know anything about Jeet Kune Do? Where we you in the 1950's and 1960's when Bruce Lee took his (17 years or so) of experience and voiced his very strong and very public opinions on the way other people trained? Where we you in the 1970's and 1980's when Dan Inosanto was traveling round the world voicing all of his opinions in public about the shortcomings of current training methods and how we can do things better? Have you ever seen a Paul Vunak tape? They are loaded with examples of how traditional methods fall down in combat and how his method is more effective. Jeet Kune Do was built on unpopular speech, and now we're trying to silence it? Well if thats the way things are then I think Mr Wright has a point, because that means Jeet Kune Do is dying.

Up until 1970 i was swiming in a ball sack. But do you mean the over 50 years that Dan sacrificed his body to reasearch what did and didn't work together to assist Bruce and then carry on so that people (who next to Dan know nothing) could try second guess him (after he created more expert Instructors than M. Wright has probably had students). That Dan learned and mastered more arts than a normal person will ever train in. That Dan helped bring from utter obscurity arts like Thai Boxing, Silat and so many more. Cause I didn't see Dan running around trashing arts. I saw him bringing rare arts to light so that more people could train them.

Just don't get sucked into a sparing mentality (sorry alive mentality). But don't try to argue with them their minds are made up. And one thing I notice is alot of people get hung up on how long they did something. Does a person really have 20 years experience or say 1 year of experience they repeated 20 times.

[Wi Kali Group]

I have

Hey quick question is M. Wright the guy with a 0-1 Pro MMA record.

I don't know. But when I read what he has written it comes off as him trashing good training by great instructors. And like I said back in the 90's you saw the same thing. Usually it was people trashing things they couldn't do very well.

I went back and re-read some of his posts and I haven't changed my mind. I don't think anyone would have a problem if he would be clear that it never worked for him. And if he was open minded enough to accept a fact that its possible it might work for others.

When I go back and look at my old seminar notes of Dan, Larry & Paul I find something interesting. These young generation of "JKD" guys have slipped back into the limits Bruce worked so hard to remove. We have an alive camp here in the U.S. and he sounds a lot like them. They have taken the lessons of JKD and really twisted them (IMHO). They focus on what works for them (which was the point of JKD great job). And then they try to convince everyone else to ditch what they did. Dan talked back in the 90's about when the martial artists brought their arts to the US they brought their prejudice. Well we have a new group doing the same thing.

Now unlike him I have not bashed what he's doing. Just pointing out that just because he couldn't get an art to work in 17 years doesn't mean he should assume its worthless. Trying to undo the damage he might be doing to people that could learn alot from JKD. He trashes it but lets be honest would he be doing what he's doing without it. He'd probably we wearing a gi and breaking boards without it.

Larry, Paul & J. Imada all went through training similar to M. Wright myself and others. Larry became a hardcore boxer/grappler. Paul became the hardcore trapper. And Imada became an mad Kali guy. But I've never heard Larry, Paul or Jeff bash each other or their students. These same drill and training that Wright is bashing is what produced Paul, Larry, Jeff, R. Faye and so many others. So I'm trying to help the people who are coming here for something useful when you have all this talent created by the methods Wright trashes. That maybe its him and not JKD.

If they follow his advice they are not going to be exploring for themselves like Dan & Paul advocate. They will just be imitating M. Wright.

I don't put my personal info on the web in chat rooms. With all the unstable people on the web its not worth the risk. (And their might be a few here)

Oh and on your comment that his web site showed he knows JKD. Well all his website shows is he is certified. If he could actually do JKD I don't think he would be trashing it so much.

And I have most of Paul's old video's. When he talks about things working they are only talking about for JKD blending arts. You can't blend Tae Kwan Do with wingchun unless you strip out the punching and blocking as they don't work together. Now Savate, Wing Chun, Thai Boxing & Boxing all keep their hands up so they can blend together. Or when they talk about economy of motion. Some things get chopped due to how inefficient they are. I've seen Paul tell a room full of karate guys if they want to protect their hip leave their hand down. Or if they want to protect their head then hands up. I never heard him tell them their training was worthless. Paul would praise people for their black belt back ground. Talking about his.

And I've never heard Dan bad mouth anyone. Even when at a seminar in MN a guy claiming to be FBI asked about a ninja star vs. a gun. You, Me & M. Wright all probably would have told him he was the dumbest person alive. Dan gave a sincere polite answer.

[Clubber Lang]

Good - please do give up

You just can't reason with people that drink the coolaid. So I'm directing this at people who may have an open mind.

M. Wright Said
"
Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist."

No not in and of itself. I would say a casual observer would say I have one too. Where he was disrespectful (not to mention arrogant) is where he assumed what didn't work for him can't work for anyone else. We all learn differently. We all have vastly different levels of talents & abilities.

It's like the people who assume BJJ is the best. Or the host of deadliest technique of the month articles. BJJ may be the best for one person and totally useless to the next person. (You still need to work it). Maybe I've never going to have a great award winning side kick. But I may need a side kick (or a trap for that matter) and all I can say is my side kick or trap or BJJ can be better in a month than it can today. Maybe I'll never be great but I know I can be better than I am today.

M. Wright said

"My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me."

Now this is the best part. They let you be you. They could run around on say posts and tell everyone they thought you were maybe young talented and misguided. But they don't they have respect enough for you to let you be you. Why can't you have the same respect for me and others on this forum and adopt their silence. Start an aliveness thread. Talk about all the positive aspects of your training. You don't see any of the people I've mentioned running around in public trashing people.

M. Wright Said

"The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shoveling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion."

So he shoveled it for 17 years. Probably defending JKD as I am now. Trashing anyone who disagreed with him. But now he's seen the light and we should just trust him. If you don't believe it he has a website. So does everyone. We are just supposed to believe what he is shoveling now. Can't we just figure out what he is going to train in 17 years and get a head start on him. Which is more likely

1. He's right (it only took him 17 years to figure it out)

2. He's wrong (and maybe he just found a way of training that works best for him.)

Even if he was right (I think he's too hung up on his last name) do you really want to take advice from someone that needed 17 years to figure it out. Or is it more likely that after training it for 17 years he's pissed off at an art he couldn't figure out.

Jesus man, why are you getting so bent out of shape?

The guy is just sharing his honest views from his experiences, and passing comment on the training methods of an art, that's what everyone does on this forum - that's what a forum is for. If you disagree then come back with an argument as to why you disagree and back it up with some experiences, like he has. All I've seen from you so far is just a bunch of whining and sulking, just because somebody has dared to criticise your art.

You say he's trashing people and being disrespectful, I haven't seen him name anyone or trash anyone, he's just talking in broad terms. Yet you are coming back in your posts calling him arrogant, disrespectful, and you're getting really personal about him - and that's just making you look like a hypocritical jerk.

I haven't met or trained with the guy but I know his background and have seen his stuff, and I'd say the guy knows what he is talking about. I'm not saying I agree with him but at least I know he's actually gone through the mill to arrive at his point of view - and he is entitled to express it. He posted his website to show that you were wrong in all of your other posts when you were saying he knew nothing about JKD and couldn't do it, and I just think you are pissed off because he's discredited your point of view. What I don't know is jack shit about you, what have you been through, and what exactly is your point of view outside of trying to discredit Mr Wright?

Your post is basically saying he should keep his mouth shut out of respect for the art and for his teachers. This is 2009 buddy and its a free country, if the guy has a point of view then he is perfectly entitled to express it, what the hell do you think we have internet forums for? Who are you to come on here trying to silence him? This isn't the Roman Catholic church and sorry to break this to you but you aren't the pope, as much as you come across like one.

And finally, do you know anything about Jeet Kune Do? Where we you in the 1950's and 1960's when Bruce Lee took his (17 years or so) of experience and voiced his very strong and very public opinions on the way other people trained? Where we you in the 1970's and 1980's when Dan Inosanto was traveling round the world voicing all of his opinions in public about the shortcomings of current training methods and how we can do things better? Have you ever seen a Paul Vunak tape? They are loaded with examples of how traditional methods fall down in combat and how his method is more effective. Jeet Kune Do was built on unpopular speech, and now we're trying to silence it? Well if thats the way things are then I think Mr Wright has a point, because that means Jeet Kune Do is dying.

[Justthefacts]

Functional JKD

Michael: The following link provides an example of how JKD can be as effective as any martial art. Considering that I used Richie Carrion as one of 3 "rebuttal witnesses" to the notion that JKD is not functional, I was happy to see him mentioned in the following thread/link.

Another JKd win in the cage - Jeet Kune Do Talk

[Wi Kali Group]

I give up

You just can't reason with people that drink the coolaid. So I'm directing this at people who may have an open mind.

M. Wright Said
"
Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist."

No not in and of itself. I would say a casual observer would say I have one too. Where he was disrespectful (not to mention arrogant) is where he assumed what didn't work for him can't work for anyone else. We all learn differently. We all have vastly different levels of talents & abilities.

It's like the people who assume BJJ is the best. Or the host of deadliest technique of the month articles. BJJ may be the best for one person and totally useless to the next person. (You still need to work it). Maybe I've never going to have a great award winning side kick. But I may need a side kick (or a trap for that matter) and all I can say is my side kick or trap or BJJ can be better in a month than it can today. Maybe I'll never be great but I know I can be better than I am today.

M. Wright said

"My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me."

Now this is the best part. They let you be you. They could run around on say posts and tell everyone they thought you were maybe young talented and misguided. But they don't they have respect enough for you to let you be you. Why can't you have the same respect for me and others on this forum and adopt their silence. Start an aliveness thread. Talk about all the positive aspects of your training. You don't see any of the people I've mentioned running around in public trashing people.

M. Wright Said

"The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shoveling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion."

So he shoveled it for 17 years. Probably defending JKD as I am now. Trashing anyone who disagreed with him. But now he's seen the light and we should just trust him. If you don't believe it he has a website. So does everyone. We are just supposed to believe what he is shoveling now. Can't we just figure out what he is going to train in 17 years and get a head start on him. Which is more likely

1. He's right (it only took him 17 years to figure it out)

2. He's wrong (and maybe he just found a way of training that works best for him.)

Even if he was right (I think he's too hung up on his last name) do you really want to take advice from someone that needed 17 years to figure it out. Or is it more likely that after training it for 17 years he's pissed off at an art he couldn't figure out.

When you see people trashing anyone's training. Making the claim it won't work. Take a good look at them. Maybe they are ripping on what they can't do. Why else would someone who has so much disrespect for JKD and those who teach & train it be in a forum on JKD

You've already gone down that angle once, I responded to it with my background and who I am, so your argument carries no weight. I'm not sure you've offered any form or articulate response to any of my challenges, you just keep banging the brainwashed drum of "how dare you criticise".

Its not disrespectful to have a strong point of view on your beliefs, once again that is a big part of JKD, for without it JKD wouldn't exist. My instructors in JKD (two of whom you have thrown at me in your post) know my beliefs and in the spirit of our JKD culture accept the fact that as an individual I am entitled to my opinion. We may not agree, but that's fine, I'm not trying to be them - I'm just being me.

I've heard all of the points in your first few paragraphs a thousand times before, all just desperate philosophical attempts to defend ineffective training methods. The reason I know that is because I also used to use them, until I woke up and smelt what I was shovelling. I have spent the last 17 years going through all of that, I've been through it and come out the other side with an informed opinion. That opinion is there are two routes in martial arts - one is alive, functional and will produce the results you are looking for in an efficient and effective manner. The other is one that promises to deliver the same results and more, but asks you to hang around for 20 or 30 years to see them. If that's what you want to do then that's cool, best of luck to you.

[Wi Kali Group]

Totally miffed

I remember something Rick Faye said years ago about topics reoccurring in the Martial Art magazines. We had this phenomenon back in the late 80's early 90's. I think they call it aliveness now. We called it a sparring mentality (it was more than just sparring). It was the same thing you see now with the resisting opponent. Looking at what you can see working in a fight/sport. The only thing was you didn't have the internet so they could only spread their negativity in person.

Back then it was almost always big clumsy guys. They usually didn't like anything but sparring or training with resistance involved. Not because it didn't have value but because they could never do it well. They gravitated to boxing & grappling. Not because its better but its better for them. Anything involving finesse or fine motion is beyond them.

Now I'm not saying these guys are worthless. They offer a valid point of view. But its just a sliver (a very small one at that) of training. And their way is not for everyone.

Great instructors like Master Chai & the FMA instructors (who Sifu Dan learned from). They use these dead training methods for a simple reason. They are trying to impart lessons they learned in real combat to you in a safe training drill.

The problem is some people look at this training through the blinders of sparring or fighting. Hubud, chisao, trapping and say you will never fight like that. And all the instructors I've had agree. A fight will never look like that. These drills are only a small piece of combat (maybe). You drill them over and over on the chance that if you need them bang they might work. With the JKD it might mean the difference in finishing the fight in a few min vs. rolling on the ground and getting hurt.

And with weapons somethings can not be trained safely without drilling. So you either have to cheat your students training or train some dead drills. In some of these dead drills you can isolate complicated moves and ingrain them into muscle memory (the big clumsy guys can't do this). Then after you improve you try to work them into more alive training. It seems to me that if you get sucked into this sparring mentality your training will peak prematurely. You will never go as far as you can. You never have anything to fall back on when you get burntout on the simple training. Boredom is the enemy of advancement.

When you see people trashing anyone's training. Making the claim it won't work. Take a good look at them. Are they big tough guys. Could it be they are just good at what they do. Maybe they are ripping on what they can't do. Why else would someone who has so much disrespect for JKD and those who teach & train it be in a forum on JKD.

Lastly if you look at something and are convinced it won't work good chance it won't.

"If instantly know the candle light is fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago."

So maybe the problem isn't with the art but the artist.

[corwin137]

Happy to see some thoughtful posts on the subject. It just so happens that Steve Grody just posted a fairly lengthy note about this on his blog a couple days ago. There's some stuff there that's not only trapping relevant, but self-defense (preservation, whatever the nomenclature of the week is...) relevant as well...
Downtown L.A. Self Defense - Steve Grody

[joeygil]

A lot of people have seen through JKD, and that’s just evolution. Case in point, my last visit to the Inosanto Academy where there were 30 people in the Muay Thai class, 30 people in the Grappling class, and 4 people in the JKD class. Martial artists in 2009 are smart consumers, who like any customer in any other industry expect to see a result on their investment. When they stand around doing trapping sets and stick sets and dummy sets they rightly question the impact this is having on their ability i.e. where are the results? They will be answered with the process vs. product line, but the problem is that they will then wander into the next class and start to feel the product from day one. That’s just life.

While I don't necessarily disagree with all your points, I would like to point out that seems like a fluke. I live in Los Angeles, and go to the IAMA regularly, and usually see more than 4 people in the JKD class. There are currently 3 JKD class levels taught, level 1 and 3 have the highest attendance, at around 20, and level 2 has maybe a dozen. A reason you'll see less folks in each class is not everyone does all 3 classes - most in level 3 don't do either of the lower levels. A good chunk in level 1 aren't allowed into level 2 yet. Also, I'm not sure which grappling class you're talking about. The Shooto class rarely has over 10 people, and the Machado BJJ class about the same. It's possible you saw JKD 3, which Sifu Dan has been incorporating grappling for the past 2 years.

Note: JKD 1 & 2 are primarily OJKD, taught by Sifu Yori Nakamura. JKD 3 is taught by Sifu Dan Inosanto.

Whether or not Trapping works in a real fight? I really don't know as I haven't been in a real fight since high school almost 20 years ago. I'm sure it works in a subset of fights. I was just talking with a friend who apparently gets in fights in seedy bars, and he says trapping works great there. Against a trained MMA style fighter, not so much evidence for that (unless you want to expand your definition of trapping).

[Justthefacts]

Reality

Michael: Each individual can and should seek their own path to personal liberation. I think it's cool that you have actively sought out the "truth," but blanket statements based on selective information will be always be met with a rebuttal. I would like to present 3 rebuttal witnesses.

1) Sifu Richie Carrion: Sifu Carrion has successfully trained his students to compete in full contact matches using JKD techniques.

2) Sifu Jeremy Lynch: Sifu Lynch successfully used JKD techniques in the kickboxing ring.

3) Sifu Lamar Davis: Sifu Davis has successfully used JKD techniques in countless street fights and in many of those street fights, he used trapping techniques.

A tough guy is a tough guy. It doesn't matter if he kicked ass in 1920, 1960, or 2009. Let's use boxing as an example. Sugar Ray Robinson began his professional career in 1940, yet he is still considered to be the best fighter pound for pound in the history of boxing. Were Robinson's training methods more sophisticated than the training methods of Floyd Mayweather? No. Is Mayweather a better fighter than Robinson? No. Since Robinson fought in the stone age, are his fighting techniques inferior to the techniques of Mayweather? No. Why is that? If your argument is correct, that should not happen. The reality, however, is that Robinson's techniques worked in 1940, and they would work today. Take a gifted athlete and teach him JKD techniques, he will succeed in the sporting world and he will most certainly be feared in the streets.

[Jujujason]

I got your back Michael, no matter what! =)