Trapping...Does it work?

He really can't. The web is full of sudo experts on JKD/Kali and training by drills. Their only claim is they looked at it and figured out its worthless. Or they trained it and couldn't get very good at it. Either way they want everyone else to ignore it. It would be too much for their ego if someone else is doing something they can't. All they do is run around telling people you will never get that to work. Why not leave people alone. Why do people have to try to drag people down with them. Their is more to the arts than kicking ass. Also out side of a ring or other sport you only need a few things to defend yourself. If you were stuck on an island what book would you take. Its kinda like that. If your only goal is to kick ass pick 3 solid strikes. Get some steroids. Build some booze/drug tolerance. Then all you need is your bashing skills and a lack of morality (the willingness to use them anywhere). But you will also need a good lawyer, no fear of going to jail.

I don’t feel particularly motivated to alter your opinion of me, but to offer some context to the discussion you are welcome to look at the following, and by all means draw your own conclusions around the basis of my opinions:

Adaptive Martial Concepts

My training isn’t motivated by kicking ass, I gave up worrying about fights a long time ago. 90% of my training now is in Combat Athletics just to stay in shape and have fun – but I stay in shape and have fun by training in methods that I can still always see the functional benefit from. That means its fun and its honest. What always amazes me is this notion in martial arts where people think in order to be “balanced” you need to have a mix of alive training and then a bunch of dead routines. That’s completely irrational. People then defend these dead routines by saying “its not all about kicking ass”. I completely agree but here is the crucial point on that – why can’t you enjoy your martial arts and have just as much balance by training in methods that all deliver some form of functional benefit?

I see the vast majority (not all) of the physical curriculum of JKD (be that Original or Concepts) filled with sets, drills, patterns and routines that bear no resemblance to the attributes required to ever utilise the techniques therein. They are convoluted, contrived and only serve to act as a very impressive set of demonstrations at seminars or on DVDs. Add on top of that the philosophical element, which seeks to constantly blind, confuse and talk its way out of the many glaring questions the student will ask – most notably “what is the point of this?”

A lot of people have seen through JKD, and that’s just evolution. Case in point, my last visit to the Inosanto Academy where there were 30 people in the Muay Thai class, 30 people in the Grappling class, and 4 people in the JKD class. Martial artists in 2009 are smart consumers, who like any customer in any other industry expect to see a result on their investment. When they stand around doing trapping sets and stick sets and dummy sets they rightly question the impact this is having on their ability i.e. where are the results? They will be answered with the process vs. product line, but the problem is that they will then wander into the next class and start to feel the product from day one. That’s just life.

Sitting in the comfort zone of what JKD can build around you is actually one of the easiest ways to develop your ego. The academies, the certificates, the seminars, the titles, the reputation. If you think looking critically at what you have been doing for ten years and stepping into an amateur boxing gym for the first time at 30 years old is an easy thing to do for your ego, then I can tell you its not. I still have the broken nose to prove it. That’s just one example of how I have tried to take off the blinkers and step into the zone that we like to talk up in JKD but not too many people walk it. In 2 weeks time I’ll be training in Thailand, probably finding out just how bad my Muay Thai is, and that’s not going to be great on the ego either.

As a final point, and judging by all the neg rep I’ve picked up on this, its clear that my point of view is not sitting well with people on this forum. Again, what amazes me about that is I was always taught that a critical, sceptical, questioning mind was the hallmark of a JKD man. Mr Bruce Lee looked around him at what was held up at the time as best practise and took a stand to say I don’t agree, I think this is the wrong path, and I think we can do this better. Its so ironic that most (not all) of those who follow his path, completely fail to follow his example.

Michael: How do you explain the success that Bruce Lee's students had when using the tools taught to them by their Sifu in REAL LIFE combat situations? I'll put a prime Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Howard Williams, or Larry Hartsell against any MMA guy in the streets and feel pretty comfortable with my subsequent wager. JKD and/or Jun Fan Gung Fu was not a "mess" to those who touched hands with Bruce Lee. As Bruce Lee once told Sifu Jerry Poteet, "Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing."

In the 1960’s, when martial arts in the United States was relatively immature, and Jun Fan Gung Fu was way ahead of it’s time, and a phenomenally talented individual was personally teaching hand picked students who already had a strong fighting background, you’re absolutely right my friend that wasn’t a mess. Great times, wish I could have been there.

Unfortunately, that is no longer our reality, and my comments are about right now in 2009. Everything evolves.

[Wi Kali Group]

Simple answer is he can't

He really can't. The web is full of sudo experts on JKD/Kali and training by drills. Their only claim is they looked at it and figured out its worthless. Or they trained it and couldn't get very good at it. Either way they want everyone else to ignore it. It would be too much for their ego if someone else is doing something they can't. All they do is run around telling people you will never get that to work. Why not leave people alone. Why do people have to try to drag people down with them. Their is more to the arts than kicking ass. Also out side of a ring or other sport you only need a few things to defend yourself. If you were stuck on an island what book would you take. Its kinda like that. If your only goal is to kick ass pick 3 solid strikes. Get some steroids. Build some booze/drug tolerance. Then all you need is your bashing skills and a lack of morality (the willingness to use them anywhere). But you will also need a good lawyer, no fear of going to jail.

[Justthefacts]

Real Fights

Michael: How do you explain the success that Bruce Lee's students had when using the tools taught to them by their Sifu in REAL LIFE combat situations? I'll put a prime Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Howard Williams, or Larry Hartsell against any MMA guy in the streets and feel pretty comfortable with my subsequent wager. JKD and/or Jun Fan Gung Fu was not a "mess" to those who touched hands with Bruce Lee. As Bruce Lee once told Sifu Jerry Poteet, "Seeing is not believing, feeling is believing."

[DonKey]

In my opinion and experience, that's an unfounded and completely innacurate comparison. Combinations of punches from Western Boxing training do clearly work, all of the time, and end many fights. Look at any stoppage where the referee has to step in due to a barrage of unanswered punches from one fighter, those are punches thrown as a series of combinations. What you may be referring to are the sets, drills and routines that martial artists (particularly in JKD) like to put together on the pads - which I agree are static and not functional. However, train at any good Boxing or Thai Boxing gym and you learn how to put together realistic combinations that flow naturally to overwhelm your opponent and stop the fight.



That certainly ranks as one of the weaker arguments on that point, of which all such arguments can be responded to with a simple point. MMA doesn't use trapping because it doesn't need it, the delivery systems are already in place to do the job at hand - which is clearly evident given the guy laying on the canvas at the end. If trapping were needed it would be used, but it isn't, so its not. It isn’t any more complicated than that.



Most people who bash JKD simply see through it for what it is: an over-intellectulised mess that never really answers any of the questions it raises. Put a JKD man up against a dedicated man of any of its component arts, and I'll bet my house that they will have their arse handed to them. The people who have really excelled in JKD have done so by stepping out of it and going to the root of their chosen art, just like any other person can do, without all the philosophical bullshit and hero worship. The reason that the coda of JKD is its all about "the process and not the product" is because we excel at drawing out the former, but are pretty poor at ever delivering the latter.

While I think JKD can be useful in exposing someone to a lot of tools, I think your last paragraph is right on, the JKD teachers who I know and respect as fighters didn't go with the shotgun approach, instead choosing a base art and
getting really good at it(often thai or western boxing).

The static complex trapping most of us practice doesn't work in the same way 3-5 strike combo's don't work (in or out of the ring)

In my opinion and experience, that's an unfounded and completely innacurate comparison. Combinations of punches from Western Boxing training do clearly work, all of the time, and end many fights. Look at any stoppage where the referee has to step in due to a barrage of unanswered punches from one fighter, those are punches thrown as a series of combinations. What you may be referring to are the sets, drills and routines that martial artists (particularly in JKD) like to put together on the pads - which I agree are static and not functional. However, train at any good Boxing or Thai Boxing gym and you learn how to put together realistic combinations that flow naturally to overwhelm your opponent and stop the fight.

The lack of trapping in MMA is simple most of them don't keep their hands up.

That certainly ranks as one of the weaker arguments on that point, of which all such arguments can be responded to with a simple point. MMA doesn't use trapping because it doesn't need it, the delivery systems are already in place to do the job at hand - which is clearly evident given the guy laying on the canvas at the end. If trapping were needed it would be used, but it isn't, so its not. It isn’t any more complicated than that.

Remember most of the people out bashing what we do in JKD can't do it.

Most people who bash JKD simply see through it for what it is: an over-intellectulised mess that never really answers any of the questions it raises. Put a JKD man up against a dedicated man of any of its component arts, and I'll bet my house that they will have their arse handed to them. The people who have really excelled in JKD have done so by stepping out of it and going to the root of their chosen art, just like any other person can do, without all the philosophical bullshit and hero worship. The reason that the coda of JKD is its all about "the process and not the product" is because we excel at drawing out the former, but are pretty poor at ever delivering the latter.

[george stando]

I think if you want to make it work and work it against the different opponets with resistence and streamline it down to the ones that work best then you can have something that can definitely work for you because you are picking the few that work then working them until they are second nature and can be done against various attacks.

[fire cobra]

Ok a few things I've read here I'd like to comment on. I've been out of the loop on JKD & Kali since the mid 90's. So bear with if it sounds like I'm a bit out of touch.

Some comments on Bruce not trapping in the last few years. (This appears to be comming from Sifu Wong's camp.) I'll take Sifu's Inosanto, Wong, Tackett, Hartsel, Vunak and others I respect at their word. I've heard Dan say Bruce trained different things with diff people based on their background and ability. I think this was on the series of DVD's on his site. Ted appears to have said Bruce didn't train trapping the last few years. So all we can say is it's possible Bruce didn't train trapping with Ted the last few years.

"Trapping doesn't work." The static complex trapping most of us practice doesn't work in the same way 3-5 strike combo's don't work (in or out of the ring). You still practice them. Most people are lucky to hit 1 of the 5 punches (unless they are way better). Some people go in hunting for the trap. Most fighters who head hunt take a beating or loose. What did Larry & Dan tell us in the 90's about traps and locks. Don't go looking for it. You will get hit. Take it if its there. The lack of trapping in MMA is simple most of them don't keep their hands up.

Also most people look for some fancy pretty setup like in training. Most of the time if you land one you are going to blast the head back and just keep hitting. Most people are not going to give you trapping energy. When you crash the first barrier and smash them they are going to drop, freak out or turn and run. And if you miss the trap your going to end up clinched or rolling on the ground.

Their are many people here with more to offer than me. M. Deny, T. Tackett & T. Mousel. So if they add or correct me I concede. If anyone else comments use your own judgement and common sense. Remember most of the people out bashing what we do in JKD can't do it.

Good sensible post bro.

[fire cobra]

That's just what I've heard from a friend who saw him recently. He's back in Los Angeles visiting (lives in Thailand now), and maybe had a seminar or something. The only other detail I heard was he preferred stop kicks to shin-blocks as their shins are way more conditioned than his.

I also don't know the level these bouts are. They could just be friendly sparring matches for all I know, or they could be a bit more serious.

Thanks bro.

[joeygil]

Trapping and stop kicking is a part of Muay Thai to.

I have never heard of Mark Stewart Boxing in Thailand(how old will he be now?) not saying he hasnt or doesnt box there mind just that I havent heard of him Boxing and it would be nice to know more details,ie where,when,against who,how many times,winner looser etc.

I find it interesting that a JKD instructor would "put it up" in the rings of Thailand.

That's just what I've heard from a friend who saw him recently. He's back in Los Angeles visiting (lives in Thailand now), and maybe had a seminar or something. The only other detail I heard was he preferred stop kicks to shin-blocks as their shins are way more conditioned than his.

I also don't know the level these bouts are. They could just be friendly sparring matches for all I know, or they could be a bit more serious.

[Wi Kali Group]

On trapping, Bruce & JKD.

Ok a few things I've read here I'd like to comment on. I've been out of the loop on JKD & Kali since the mid 90's. So bear with if it sounds like I'm a bit out of touch.

Some comments on Bruce not trapping in the last few years. (This appears to be comming from Sifu Wong's camp.) I'll take Sifu's Inosanto, Wong, Tackett, Hartsel, Vunak and others I respect at their word. I've heard Dan say Bruce trained different things with diff people based on their background and ability. I think this was on the series of DVD's on his site. Ted appears to have said Bruce didn't train trapping the last few years. So all we can say is it's possible Bruce didn't train trapping with Ted the last few years.

"Trapping doesn't work." The static complex trapping most of us practice doesn't work in the same way 3-5 strike combo's don't work (in or out of the ring). You still practice them. Most people are lucky to hit 1 of the 5 punches (unless they are way better). Some people go in hunting for the trap. Most fighters who head hunt take a beating or loose. What did Larry & Dan tell us in the 90's about traps and locks. Don't go looking for it. You will get hit. Take it if its there. The lack of trapping in MMA is simple most of them don't keep their hands up.

Also most people look for some fancy pretty setup like in training. Most of the time if you land one you are going to blast the head back and just keep hitting. Most people are not going to give you trapping energy. When you crash the first barrier and smash them they are going to drop, freak out or turn and run. And if you miss the trap your going to end up clinched or rolling on the ground.

Their are many people here with more to offer than me. M. Deny, T. Tackett & T. Mousel. So if they add or correct me I concede. If anyone else comments use your own judgement and common sense. Remember most of the people out bashing what we do in JKD can't do it.

[fire cobra]

I just heard from a friend our old JKD instructor, Sifu Mark Stewart successfully uses trapping and stop kicking in Muay Thai bouts in Thailand all the time.

Trapping and stop kicking is a part of Muay Thai to.

I have never heard of Mark Stewart Boxing in Thailand(how old will he be now?) not saying he hasnt or doesnt box there mind just that I havent heard of him Boxing and it would be nice to know more details,ie where,when,against who,how many times,winner looser etc.

I find it interesting that a JKD instructor would "put it up" in the rings of Thailand.

[Justthefacts]

Cool

Joe: Thanks for passing along that information. Great stuff. Notice how Sifu Stewart is effectively employing the core arts of JKD? The foundation of JKD is Wing Chun, Boxing, and Fencing. Sifu Stewart is using the trapping hands from Wing Chun and the stop kicking from Fencing. If he threw in some hooks and crosses from Boxing, his bouts would be the ultimate expression of JKD.

[joeygil]

I just heard from a friend our old JKD instructor, Sifu Mark Stewart successfully uses trapping and stop kicking in Muay Thai bouts in Thailand all the time.

[Justthefacts]

Good Points

Joey: When Bruce Lee entered the 1958 Hong Kong high school boxing championship tournament, he had never used boxing gloves before and had to rely on his Wing Chun straight punching techniques. Lee overcame his inexperience with the equipment and won the lightweight championship with a 3rd round knockout over defending champion Gary Elms. I'm sure that the equipment did not allow Bruce Lee to use the slapping or pulling hand techniques that he had become so proficient at, but the equipment used in MMA tournaments would have been more to Lee's liking. In terms of compound as opposed to simple trapping, some of Bruce Lee's fellow students from the Yip Man days have stated that Bruce concentrated on the "first hand" trap and was not a big fan of compound trapping.

When Bruce trained Joe Lewis, he told Joe that he was not into compound trapping and would rather "reach over and knock the guy out." Anybody that ever felt Bruce Lee's trapping techniques will tell you that they were functional and that they hurt. Lee's initial trapping movement would be designed to hurt the limb and to completely shut his opponent down. As I stated before, the real question should be, does the trapping taught by Bruce Lee work? If you go by results, the answer is YES!! Bob Bremer, James DeMile, Jesse Glover, Patrick Strong, Howard Williams and other Bruce Lee students have used their Sifu's trapping techniques in the streets and they have walked away from these encounters unscathed.