Is There Any Difference Between Jeet Kune Do And Jun Fan Gung Fu ?

[Nutz]

Hmm.... The concepts of JKD vs JKD Concepts. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I don't know if I'd agree with saying JKD had concepts. To me JKD in of itself is just a concept. Actually, I think JKD trancends being just a concept and has evolved into a full on ideology. I admit that there are the basic stances, lines, traps, etc that come from Jun Fan that are often seen by your average JKD guy, but to be honest you don't need to ever be taught those things to be a practicioner of JKD. If I were to come in off the street without any foundation, more often than not I'd be shown what was essentially Jun Fan so I'd have a base to build upon. If I were a born and bred grappler, perhaps my "way" would look something like what Larry Hartsell does today? Take this another step, what if I didn't have any past experience, but my instructor had tons of grappling? You can bet that my version of JKD (as instructed by a long-time grappler) will have heavy grappling integrated into its core. The whole point is, so long as you're capitalizing on the ideology Bruce created you're doing "JKD". The reason I put JKD in quotes is that JKD was really Bruce's particular way of fighting. Nobody else will be able to due JKD as that was his "way". Since every human on Earth is unique, everybody will have their own "way", regardless of what it's named. We call it JKD so as to have a reference of training drills, methodolgies, etc. If I wanted to call my "way" Nutz Do, so be it. Its still "JKD", but renamed to match my path and personal inputs into the ideology. Larry Hartsell, Paul Vunak, Dan Inosanto, etc, each has their own "way", but still fall under the umbrella of JKD. Hell, some folks do give their brand of JKD its own name, but at its core its still based on the same (or somewhat matured) ideology of what Bruce's JKD emerged from.

[Ern-Dog]

"I admit that there are the basic stances, lines, traps, etc that come from Jun Fan that are often seen by your average JKD guy, but to be honest you don't need to ever be taught those things to be a practicioner of JKD"

I disagree. You cannot take an traditional Karate practitioner and let him add some grappling or what not and then turn around and say that he is doing JKD. Jun Fan must be your base to be a JKD practioner. If Jun Fan is not your base then it's not JKD. Call it whatever you want, but it's not JKD, not the way Bruce intended it to be.

[Nutz]

Originally posted by Ern-Dog
If Jun Fan is not your base then it's not JKD. Call it whatever you want, but it's not JKD, not the way Bruce intended it to be.

That's the most "classical" JKD approach to this argument that I've ever heard. Hell, in some respects that's completely against what Bruce had in mind (he wanted the art to conform to the individual, not the other way around--to force JF onto someone goes against this ideal). JF may have been the base of JKD 30 years ago, but things have changed my friend. I think you should take a step back and look at what's going on out there in the rest of the world. For example, some strains of JKD have all but eliminated trapping because for whatever reason, trapping isn't functional to what they do. Yes they may still train it, but just enough to know what to do should a reference point pop up. The SBG is a good example of how things have matured over the years.

[Ern-Dog]

I should have been more exact. The structure of Jun Fan must be your base.

Economy of motion, longest weapon to nearest target, SPBKS (chin down, knees bent, elbows in, etc. etc. Sounds almost like a boxing stance. Even Bruce knew this was a better way of starting a student out. The structure of Jun Fan was and still is far better than trad. karate, Aikido, etc.

As far as trapping goes... I'm not even going to touch that one. That dead horse and this one has been kicked way too many times. I will say this. Everyone uses the structure of trapping, everyone. BJJ use trapping, Wing Chun use trapping, Savate uses trapping, Silat uses trapping, Greco uses trapping, etc. etc. I'll admit, classical trapping (ref. point) is hard to pull of on skilled opp's. But spar Francis Fong and tell me trapping doesn't work. More times than not, it's up to the individual.


Take the structure of Jun Fan and grow from it.

Jun Fan and JKD are two sides of the same coin.
I've heard it been said that, "Jun Fan is the car and JKD is the journey."

"I study Aikido, I study jiu-jitsu, I study Karate, I study Tae Kwon Do. I'll put it together and call it Jeet Kune Do. Is it Jeet Kune Do? It's Jeet Kune Do for them. BUT IT IS NOT THE JEET KUNE DO OF BRUCE LEE. The Jeet Kune Do of Bruce Lee has the Jun Fan Gung Fu material in the beginning and then from there they are supposed to grow and expand, that is Jeet Kune Do. And it is different for every individual. So I would say, if you did that; put Karate and Aikido and Tae Kwon Do and maybe wrestling, that could be your Jeet Kune Do, that's correct. But it is not the JKD as devised or created by Bruce Lee. Because when you see he had the Jun Fan which he thought were the basics, important, and then expand and find your own Jeet Kune Do."

- Guro Dan Inosanto

[lssanjose]

I'm with ern dog. In commentaries, there's a thing detailing X and Y. I won't go any further as i'm too lazy to get the book out and find the passage for it. keep this in mind. Here, you have two things: natural instinct, and mechanical control. If someone is purely instinctual, it will be very sloppy undisciplined. If someone has too much control , then one is too mechanical, if one were to combine the two in harmony, one will have natural unnaturalness or unnaturalness.

I have other stuff I could share.

Before I leave, let me leave you with one more: we in JKD train to stop enemy at the gate. " To understand the root, is to understand all of its blossoming " - Bruce Lee.

[gungfuhero]

Bruce Lee wrote: "If JKD is not a style or a method, maybe it is being neutral or maybe it is indifference. However, this is not the case either, for JKD is both at once 'this' and 'not this, and JKD is neither opposed to styles nor not opposed to them." He also wrote that a JKD man should understand the nucleus before being free from it. What I tell my students is that they must learn efficiency so that they can employ their freedom inteligently. Someone without the core of Bruce Lee's teachings can't understand JKD.

[ultraphine]

Names are correct

William chen is a tai chi practitioner from san francisco, who was at the fight, and yes william cheung was a friend of bruces he was also my first sifu, although i trained the longest under david cheung his younger brother who waws a senior student of wong shen leungs in hong kong until he came to australia at which time he worked for william as an instructor until they had a falling out, david then opened his own school where quite alot of williams students including myself changed to. As for having anything new to say i dont, that wasnt my point, my point originally was that one cannot judge bruces fighting history because there are so many conflicting reports and if people think that just because people were friends of brucesd that they are above lying about his fights u are sorely mistaken, one of the reasons i stopped training in wing chun here is because of all the politics and bullshit that surrounds it, if we werent at was with another wing chun school,(william and david even went so far as to throw death threats around in the early nineties, then it was war with the local choy lay fut schools. I really didnt mean to sound so disrespectful to bruce, more to the hype that surrounds him, god if it wasnt for him and his connection to william i wouldnt have started training. I just get sick of having this same debate with the same old things being said over and over.

The main thing, which i tend to forget sometimes is that we should probably be concentrating on the things in the martial arts world that unite us rather than arguing over things that really have no use.

So akja ill be the first to offer an apology and a truce.

I hope we can do somethin a bit more constructive (which if i remember was the reason this site attracted me in the first place)

[akja]

Re: Names are correct

Originally posted by ultraphine
William chen is a tai chi practitioner from san francisco, who was at the fight, and yes william cheung was a friend of bruces he was also my first sifu, although i trained the longest under david cheung his younger brother who waws a senior student of wong shen leungs in hong kong until he came to australia at which time he worked for william as an instructor until they had a falling out, david then opened his own school where quite alot of williams students including myself changed to. As for having anything new to say i dont, that wasnt my point, my point originally was that one cannot judge bruces fighting history because there are so many conflicting reports and if people think that just because people were friends of brucesd that they are above lying about his fights u are sorely mistaken, one of the reasons i stopped training in wing chun here is because of all the politics and bullshit that surrounds it, if we werent at was with another wing chun school,(william and david even went so far as to throw death threats around in the early nineties, then it was war with the local choy lay fut schools. I really didnt mean to sound so disrespectful to bruce, more to the hype that surrounds him, god if it wasnt for him and his connection to william i wouldnt have started training. I just get sick of having this same debate with the same old things being said over and over.

The main thing, which i tend to forget sometimes is that we should probably be concentrating on the things in the martial arts world that unite us rather than arguing over things that really have no use.

So akja ill be the first to offer an apology and a truce.

I hope we can do somethin a bit more constructive (which if i remember was the reason this site attracted me in the first place)

BACK AT YA!

Usually I'll go a few rounds then I try to seek some neutral ground so not to create to many enemies. You beat me to it.

[ultraphine]

yeah i know what u mean

I think you eventually grow out of the tit for tat shit it dont really achieve much does it.........

[akja]

Originally posted by gungfuhero
Bruce Lee wrote: "If JKD is not a style or a method, maybe it is being neutral or maybe it is indifference. However, this is not the case either, for JKD is both at once 'this' and 'not this, and JKD is neither opposed to styles nor not opposed to them." He also wrote that a JKD man should understand the nucleus before being free from it. What I tell my students is that they must learn efficiency so that they can employ their freedom inteligently. Someone without the core of Bruce Lee's teachings can't understand JKD.

Thats real good. The nucleus is a Jun Fan base, maybe watered down with each generation, but still a base. Those that don't get "real" instruction (meaning those who are self taught) just don't get it. Its the same with any art. Without the "instructor," most definately something will be missing.

When you're advanced, yes you can "incorporate" any style given you get your hands on the correct medium for you to do so. But even then, it will NEVER be the same.

I don't slam any martial artists who are true in their heart. I just don't like it when someone tells me what "I" do and what my art is.

[ultraphine]

Much easier after initial training

The one thing im glad i did was complete wing chun b4 i seriously tried other styles, even though i had trained other martial arts b4 wing chun the time i spent devoted to this rid me of the other stuff i had learned so i had a strong base to work from, since then ive done alot of other stuff both for fun and seriously, having a solid base allowed me to be able to see the core meaning of alot of the other stuff i did and has helped me staty motivated cos i see the meaning of alot of stuff wheras i see other students becoming frustrated as they cant put the techniques they are learning into context, this is especially true when learning new forms as i see similarities between styles now rather than differences, it also allows me to be critical of what im learning too, i treat training more as extra curricular now rather thanhaving to be totally satisfied with what ive learned, i just dont feel that anyone who is self taught or who trains under someone who has developed some bullshit, untried hybrid and teaches only on the strength of his/her own skill rather than the intrinsic value of what they are teaching will ever have anything real to compare with when they take the next step and start to really develop their own skills. I think bruce had a very strong basis of skill and learning which allowed him to develop his own path, i think the reason he stopped teaching so much was because he realised that he couldnt walk that path for other people and realised that it would be a personal thing for everyone, wing chun is similar in its theory, i was always taught that after i had completed the system it was my duty to develop on my own


ps excuse my grammar but ull get the idea

[alfa]

Jeet Kune do

I think jeet Kune Do is both, small number of original technics as well as a concept based art. Why argue? rather walk the way of ur Jeet Kune Do!!
Is there any question that Lee was the best? Is there any doubt that his students represent some of the best martial arts instructors in the world? Follow his principles and ur figjhting will better. Call it JKD or otherwise!
I suggest reading of an interesting JKD article in a journal of international combat. see link:

https://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm

[fenwick99]

re

Jun Fan is an art- jeet kune do is a conceptual framework that transcends any particular art. Another way to put it--- JKD is the WU itself, while
Jun Fan is one of the five elements.

[EGstudent]

Jeet Kune Do is a philosophy that guides a martial artist through his training.

[Rank7]

JKD? OJKD? JKDC? OJKDC? Man bruce you out did your self. Even thought this was not your intention. You truly are a genius. rip