Who is dumb enough to purposely go to the ground in a streetfight.

[Pit Dog]

To those of you who (hilariously) point to Gracies vs. strikers in early UFCs as "proof" of groundfighting being the method of choice in a streetfight, let me take the time to LMAO.

How many street fights start out where you have 20' of space between you and your opponent, no crowd, a soft mat, and a ref to signal the beginning of the fight?

Answer? ZERO.

Real fights usually begin in crowded conditions, start from a two-foot distance, are staged on a hard surface, and are initiated by who ever decides to fight first.

This is why Royce may be a better grappler than a guy like Vitor or Frye under controlled conditions while having the benefit of a soft mat and an agreed-upon start time to prepare himself and time his shoot ... but have either Vitor or Frye in Royce's face in a crowd, and suddenly launch a spontaneous volley of shots first over a heated debate, and you have a KO'd Gracie.

Also, even if Gracie managed to get the fight to the ground, him being on his back on a wooden floor with his head jammed under a bar stool is no place to "work his guard." And (for us) even if we get to be on top, having your back to potential friends of your opponent isn't very smart.

So, I agree, anyone who purposely looks to go to the ground in a streetfight is a fool, unless it is some agreed-upon place to settle an issue ... which we should all be mature enough to avoid. Proficieny in striking is FAR preferred for the street, but knowing grappling "just in case" is obviously beneficial.

But the bottom line is GJJ is designed for one-one-one, CONTROLLED confrontations with mats. It is not as "street worthy" as it claims to be.

[Bau13]

When did I say that goin to the ground was good for a street fight?

I was just saying that the pure grappler took away the pure strikers skills by taking him down...
that taking someone down is much easier than trying to KO someone with one hit...

wasn't talking about a "street situation"

just effectiveness of grappling...

[Bau13]

No way would I take someone down on purpose in the street..
too much room for biting, eye gouging and other brutal stuff..

then again...I dont fight in the street so...

[Pit Dog]

Who was saying it?

Read the thread title ... and then step back from the proximity of your indulgence in your own posts and see the whole thread and basic topic.

Thanks.

[The Colonie Crusher]

Also not only isn't there a mat, ref, and 20 ft of space in a REAL streetfight...you also don't have a mouthpiece and a cup on when you frequent the bars and clubs.

[guardman]

Originally posted by Pit Dog
To those of you who (hilariously) point to Gracies vs. strikers in early UFCs as "proof" of groundfighting being the method of choice in a streetfight, let me take the time to LMAO.

How many street fights start out where you have 20' of space between you and your opponent, no crowd, a soft mat, and a ref to signal the beginning of the fight?

Answer? ZERO.

Real fights usually begin in crowded conditions, start from a two-foot distance, are staged on a hard surface, and are initiated by who ever decides to fight first.

This is why Royce may be a better grappler than a guy like Vitor or Frye under controlled conditions while having the benefit of a soft mat and an agreed-upon start time to prepare himself and time his shoot ... but have either Vitor or Frye in Royce's face in a crowd, and suddenly launch a spontaneous volley of shots first over a heated debate, and you have a KO'd Gracie.

Also, even if Gracie managed to get the fight to the ground, him being on his back on a wooden floor with his head jammed under a bar stool is no place to "work his guard." And (for us) even if we get to be on top, having your back to potential friends of your opponent isn't very smart.

So, I agree, anyone who purposely looks to go to the ground in a streetfight is a fool, unless it is some agreed-upon place to settle an issue ... which we should all be mature enough to avoid. Proficieny in striking is FAR preferred for the street, but knowing grappling "just in case" is obviously beneficial.

But the bottom line is GJJ is designed for one-one-one, CONTROLLED confrontations with mats. It is not as "street worthy" as it claims to be.

who says you aren't going to get a bar stool rammed up side your head or get bashed by twenty other of his friends while fighting standing up. the bottomline is however you choose to fight. standing or on the ground , in a real fight you tend to focus on one thing the person you are fighting you tend to only concentrate on him.if focus on other things around you happening all at once you are losing that fight. i don't think one is better than the other. what do you think the fight ends after a right hook or a solid roundhouse kick, when mills lane raises your hand in victory and don king wants to be your promoter. NO, he's going to keep on puching and punching and punching and when you finally hit the ground he's going to want to punch you more. guess what, bjj becomes far more preferred. you better know it. Not "just in case". it comes down to what you prefer. i think bjj reigns supreme. that is what i will focus on in a fight. you prefer stand up and that is what you will focus on. so, god bless you.

[Edited by guardman on 12-30-2000 at 10:46 AM]

[Bau13]

my bad...

[darkyellowsky]

Damn I guess I created quite a stir with my post!

Thanx for the replies.

[Biker]

I agree with Pitdog completely. I've noticed that all the threads like this one get started as "going to the ground in a street fight is bad because of multiple attackers" quickly get turned into "yeah, but one-on-one going to the ground rules." If a friend of mine were in a fight that went to the ground, whoever he is fighting would get a size 13 boot to the temple and probably never be the same again.
I know, "yeah, but one-on-one..." I've seen plenty of one-on-one fights, but they were never in a crowd where one or both might have some friends to back them up. A crowd seems to always make sure one guy gets stomped pretty good.

[guardman]

Originally posted by Biker
I agree with Pitdog completely. I've noticed that all the threads like this one get started as "going to the ground in a street fight is bad because of multiple attackers" quickly get turned into "yeah, but one-on-one going to the ground rules." If a friend of mine were in a fight that went to the ground, whoever he is fighting would get a size 13 boot to the temple and probably never be the same again.
I know, "yeah, but one-on-one..." I've seen plenty of one-on-one fights, but they were never in a crowd where one or both might have some friends to back them up. A crowd seems to always make sure one guy gets stomped pretty good.

read my reply to pit dog

[Pit Dog]

Guardman:

One - It will be a happy day for forum members here when you stop the inane and annoying habit of quoting people's entire posts.

Two - The difference between your theory and my reality is the fact when a person is standing and sees multiple attackers, he can RUN or move and increase his chances of escaping. A person can't see a freaking thing from fighting on the ground, and he sure as hell can't move from this TOTALLY-COMMITTED position as effectively even if he can see.

Get in some more streetfights and then come talk to me ... after you stop the annoying habit of quoting entire posts. Are you Tez?

Regards.

[dan downard]

Pit,I dont think I have seen one post from an expiereanced street fighter saying he would go right to the ground.

[The Colonie Crusher]

As far as streetfighting, I am not saying NHB fighting, but streetfighting...boxing is much more effective than BJJ. Personally I'd prefer to have both. I have amateur boxed on and off for about 3 years, and I trained in BJJ for about 6 weeks, although 6 weeks is not alot, I did learn alot and became familiar with the style. So I believe I have the right to have an opinion of which is better.

Boxing is just much better for the street/bar. If a big bar brawl breaks out, are you gonna really try to tackle somebody or pull them into your guard and roll around for 20 minutes? I sure hope not! You'd be better off trying to throw some punches and get the hell outta there. Also, if some crazed jerk off wields a razor blade, are you gonna be stupid enough to take him to the ground? You'be better off trying to KO him. And contrary to what ALOT of brainwashed grapplers think, size does matter so with that said, when some 6'5 350 pound roided up psycho comes at you in a streetfight, are you really gonna arm bar him? Are would you be better off socking him in the ****ing jaw putting his lights out. And I won't even get into multiple attackers, because that's already been covered and proven that striking is better for that scenario.

So in closing I would just like to say I am in NO way flaming BJJ. I have a great deal of respect for the art and I even had the privilage of training with Nick Sanzo (former UFC fighter) and even training at Renzo Gracie's academy. I hope to one day in the near future train with those two again. I think every fighter should atleast become FAMILIAR with BJJ. Not necessarily die hard train in it, but atleast become familiar with it.

However BJJ has many weaknesses (like all arts, even boxing) and to think just because you know BJJ you can beat all streetfighters that don't know BJJ, you are showing signs of a 'false sense of security'. When it comes down to streetfighting, there are guys out there who never put on gloves or a gi before that could kill you barehanded. There are just tough crazy dudes out there who could kill guys like Tyson and Coleman in the street. But if you are a young kid who wants to learn one style to save you from a street whoopin'...join a competitive boxing gym.

[Twisted up]

Fighting, JKD and jiu-jitsu

First, I NEVER, EVER intend on getting into a fight.

Second, I train with an epmhasis on knowing ALL ranges.

Third, if you're attacked, it is likely going to be by a PREDATOR who is unwilling to give you a FAIR fight. With that being said, you CANNOT predict what range you're going to be in when the shit hits the fan. YOU MAY get tackled!

If I am tackled, I want NOTHING other than the concepts of Brazilian jiu-jitsu to keep me safe, until I can escape.

Because I train in all "3" ranges, I am ready to defend myself REGARDLESS of the range I may find myself in.

To go to the ground willingly is a SPORT method of fighting. In the street, momentum may take two combatants to the ground. Either way, when grappling happens I'm prepared for it.

That is MY take on Brazilian (Gracie) jiu-jitsu. The INDIVIDUAL must "personalize" a style and make it work for THEM. Not the other way around.

So, if you don't like the way Royce or other people "used" their jiu-jitsu, don't do it that way--do it YOUR way.

Oh yeah one other thing, boxing is something that ANY serious combat athlete should undertake to enhance his skills on his feet. For offense AND DEFENSE in particular.

Good training to all!

John

[Edited by Twisted up on 12-30-2000 at 12:42 PM]

[Ryu (non-working password]

LMAO, I don't think anyone of you have ever even been in a real fight. (hehe I can troll too )

The time for standup in a fight happens when you hit first, keep on hitting, and run off. If you are going to get jumped it will happen if your on the ground and standing up. It's not going to be like the movies where they give you time to duke it out with their buddy.
"Well..at least their standing up. Okay guys, don't do anything for right now. But if they get on the ground let's jump him!"

LMAO, guys!

If you're in a fight with more than one person, you have to escape. Not fight. If you fight, you're dead. If you daze something and get the hell away you might escape. Groundfighting works in the street too, but not laying in guard. Slamming somebody, mounting, and pounding them into oblivion can happen in under 3 seconds. You don't have to stay on the ground. Usually you're there whether you want to be or not. I've had to grapple against multiple opponents before (gasp! No! it can't be!) While dealing with one, I got hit in the back, and had to stand up to escape. If I didn't, I would have been beaten up. But my goal was to escape, not fight them both. Anyone who claims they can box their way out of a group of guys or grapple their way out, or anything is full of it.
Unless you're fighting preschoolers.

I'll say this once more. You don't know what will happen in a real fight. Going on the ground will work sometimes, standup will work sometiems, but if you want to be a "deadly" streetfighter go carry a gun and a knife, and shoot people before, during, and even after they start trouble with you.
You get beat up bad in a streetfight, and the guy turns around to cuss and leave you there.....shoot him in the back, stab him when he's not looking. That's mean to say, and is "dishonorable", but that's a "streetfight"

you guys are talking about people beating you up, and giving you a hardy handshake afterwards...come on..



Ryu