Who is dumb enough to purposely go to the ground in a streetfight.

[Robbie]

IMO the best stand up style is NOT boxing.I believe the best standing style is Muay thai or some other intense stand up style incorporating kicks and knees.I'm a blackbelt in Hapkido and if I ever fought a boxer I'd just let the boxer come in and low side kick him dead in the knee,actually that has happened to me before,some punk came up and threw a punch and connected with my jaw so I stepped back and let him come in again and jammed a side kick straight into the front of his knee cap and busted his knee.It was that easy.

[Edited by Robbie on 12-31-2000 at 04:35 AM]

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Ryu (non-working password




Screw 6 on 1. I hope to God no one on this forum REALLY thinks they can take 6 guys with ANY kind of martial art.

Ryu

I've never been in a 6 on 1 fight but I have been in plenty of 3 on 1 fights.It all depends on the multiple opponents skill levels,if they are just average punks off the street it is very possible if you are a talented fighter.

What I usually have done with fighting multiple opponents is to put one at a time out of commission meaning having to break their legs,arms or knocking the opponents out,doing this means taking a lot of blows so if you can't take a shot to the head and body without getting hurt then please don't try this method.

[Robbie]

Oh BTW the best training is cross training.I've got my kickboxing and Hapkido training for stand up and have been training very intense in my ground game.

Anybody remember that pro boxer that fought steve Jennum in UFC 4?Pure boxing didn't do to well in NHB.

[darkyellowsky]

This is for Linden.

Linden I respect what you say, but you say I am very naive about grappling. Now I have explained this before, but I was in Judo for almost five years where I took first in state and 5th in nationals. I then wrestled for 7 years in high school, both freestyle and collegiate. Then I studied Aikido for a year. Currently I am training in subbmission grappling, and I have done that for about 10 months. I love it and I do believe a fighter needs grappling skills. Not to mention I have been in my share of streetfights. To call me naive is overdoing it, strongly opionated, yes, but not naive. Then you say about boxing "why would try to strike a guy that is bigger and faster than you, it would be easier to take them down and finish." Well what makes you think if you are not fast enough to hit him that you would be fast and strong enough to take him down. Atleast when you are striking, and you know the guy is to tough to go out you can step away, and survive to fight another day. The only time I would use ground fighting, is if they succesfully took me down or somehow we both ended up on the ground. Then I would do what I to do to get either gain control, or get away from them. But then again I would resort to eye gouging and biting if I had to.

[Twisted up]

REAL Fighting

I train in accordance with JKD's concepts (I hate using that name) and I feel that a fight is completely unpredicatable.

There is no way we can say what we're "going to do" when the fur is flying.

For this reason, it is my opinion that we shouldn't try and FORCE a situation (be it striking OR grappling) and simply take what is GIVEN to us by the opponent. There is always generally an opening for something!

Train for every range and take the easiest route! You'll only know what that is when you're there, and the "window" will only be open for a moment. Attack without hesitation!

All else is moot!


Good training to all!

John

[Edited by Twisted up on 12-31-2000 at 12:13 PM]

[Linden]

Darkyellowsky, first off let me stress that I was not staitng that you were naive driectly, I was speaking in general, and I understand, and respect your opinion on this completely.

In response to your question, I feel that that is exactly what grappling provides a much less athletic, or speedy opponent. It povides them the chance to not have to be a super-athletic type who can move large buildings in a single bound.

In a general streetfight I do believe (I have witnessed this many times with people in challenge matches, and have even experienced this while crosstraining) that taking someone down is more strategy and timing than it is zipping under someone's punch.

I'm not saying that someone who is completely uncoordinated could pull this off, of course you have to train and possess relatively sufficient motorskills to perform any sport or serious physical maneuver.

It is true, you can't be a mongoloid and expect much, but then again to use grappling you don't have to be what a boxer or a kickboxer has to be, which is superiorly talented, and naturally gifted athletically in order to be truly successful.

That's the difference in using grappling and training boxing or any other useful striking art. It's not going to make everyman a contender in the fight game.

Grappling can give more people a chance in a fight, simply because it does not require them to be a "special" fighter.

Again, we are not talking NHB, we are talking about the everyday fight that the average man might encounter.

That's always been Jiu-Jitsu's beauty in that it allows a smaller, less talented fighter to be brought to the level of a contender. Does it guarantee them anyhting? No, but it does give them a better chance in a much shorter period of time to learn how to defened themselves than say boxing would.

I think the difference is simply this: Not everyman can walk into a boxing gym and be taught how to confidently, and successfully win a streetfight simply with boxing skills. In Ji-Jitsu this is much more possible for the average man to accomplish.

Here's another scenario as well. Ask yourself this, if NHB tchanged all of its rules, and said now that a fighter can only grapple or punch, in terms of odds, who do you think would win most of these matches, a grappler, or a striker?

I think we all know this answer, and that is basicallyw aht needs to be determined. This is not a debate over crosstraing at all. We know how much more succcessful crosstraining can make you, but what it comes down to is what fighting style alone gives you the most options.

I think it's great that you corsstrain, I do as well, and I feel that to feel complete and confident, and to even know another style so you can at least defend or predict against it, is what will make you the most successful.

I do believe though, and this is my opinion only, that it is much better and wiser to be more proficient in ground training than in striking, simply because no matter how good a striker you are, most of your time is going to be spent on the ground, whether you like it or not.

These are just my feelings, and observations, so please understand that I am not pontificating.

Necessarily.

[guardman]

Originally posted by Biker
Guardman, my previous post was not directed at you specifically. It was to agree with Pitdog and add my own two cents regarding how threads like this degenerate into little bickering contests.

Have a nice day.

your point is well taken....but shit dog seems to have been in hardcore streetfights LMAO and seems to know what he's talking about and everyone else doesn't. linden and twisted up have good points. pit dog you are a clown....

[Mad Dog]

Hey PitDog

My "retard" reply was not meant for you, it referred to the original topic thingamajig!

[YeLLa-TiGeR]

My teammate was jumped by 10+ guys last summer. He just punched the leader in the face, and while the guys were looking astonished at their fallen leader. My friend shoved a guy that was in his way and ran ran ran.....

[Angelo Popofski]

Linden kind of said what I wanted to offer...You must realize the difference between BJJ and other forms of MA. First, like Linden said, BJJ wasn't developed for someone who is 6'3" tall and 250 lbs. It was developed for the average (and even below average) built person. To truly appreciate this all you have to do is stand next to Helio Gracie, the man is about 5'7" and less than 140 lbs. Jiu Jitsu was originally developed as a form of SELF DEFENSE, not Self OFFENSE. The purpose was to give people options IF and most likely the found themselves on the ground in an altercation. So it is obvious to state that you would not be starting the altercation, but already in one and what to do to protect yourself, not necessarily win but survive...that is the main goal. If I looked like Mark Kerr I wouldn't need to learn submissions, if I could box like Mike Tyson I would never need to go to the ground, but I don't look like these guys and wasn't born with their natural talents. That's why I use BJJ. I laugh when I hear people describe what they "think" a BJJ'er would do in a street fight. They say how a BJJ'er would grab a guy and just jump on his back because that is all they know. I have trained in GJJ for about four years now and my favorite thing to talk to the Gracies about is streetfights they've been in and how they've handled it and things they recomend. I have NEVER been told to jump on my back and lay down LOL! All of they guys have said to first and foremost be aware of your situation and surrounding. If I'm in a big group and am not sure of the numbers, I would try to clinch, take a guy down or throw him and be looking to get back to my feet if necessary. Someone also made a comment about getting punched in the head while someone is in your guard...However, you'd be surprised how easy it is to tie someone up when they are trying to strike from within your guard. BJJ plays the odds and gives someone who may otherwise be at a disadvantage options in a life or death situation.

[Tony10]

Pit Dog has pretty much explained how it is; I don't know what you guys are resisting. Once you've gone to the ground, you've COMMITTED to a position that is no longer easily escapable, and that's a bad place to be when each evolving second could bring some instant change in the threat environment. Stay on your feet at all times if you can.

In the bar/whatever, as he said, who said you'll even be able to put somebody in a guard? Let's not forget how many skilled groundfighters in the UFCs or other cage matches suddenly became helpless when their opponent would smoosh them up against the fence! Tank Abbott used this to devastating effect... after the first couple of UFCs you'd see people constantly trying to move their BJJ opponents out of the center of the ring and up against the fence, where they could get neither the leverage nor the position to implement their skills.

This is not an argument for "stand and trade blows," however. IMHO, while BJJ is essential training in the unfortunate event you are involuntarily brought down, standup grappling and/or Judo are perfect for street confrontations because you can potentially put a guy down without following him there. Which is the shortcoming I notice in lot of BJJ fighters--not enough emphasis on standup. Hell, you hip-throw a guy onto the concrete and that could be the fight right there.

Ronin and Ryu have pretty much made all the points, too. And while somebody does argue that a bigger guy doesn't necessarily punch harder (true) I will argue that it's harder to damage a bigger guy (if you're smaller) using punches. However, if you get Bigger Guy onto the ground--unaccompanied by you--and start kicking him in the ribs and head, he'll be screaming for Mommy soon enough...

[Angelo Popofski]

Tony10-From a standup perspective I agree w/ everything you said...However, as far as NHB/MMA fights go, you said:"

Let's not forget how many skilled groundfighters in the UFCs or other cage matches suddenly became helpless when their opponent would smoosh them up against the fence! Tank Abbott used this to devastating effect... after the first couple of UFCs you'd see people constantly trying to move their BJJ opponents out of the center of the ring and up against the fence, where they could get neither the leverage nor the position to implement their skills."

While this is true, let's not forget that they made it illegal to grab the fence w/ hands OR feet, which is what someone needs to do to get out of the corner. You might recall in the earlier UFC's, (Royce x Severn for example) BJJ'ers were able to move and adjust in the cage to better their position. I bring this up more so because of my own experience, I don't agree w/ the fact that someone can pin me up against the fence and I am not allowed to use my TOES to get out of there. Holding the fence w/ your hands (to pin/choke someone) is not the same as using toes to turn myself around...

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by Tony10

However, if you get Bigger Guy onto the ground--unaccompanied by you--and start kicking him in the ribs and head, he'll be screaming for Mommy soon enough...

Good post Tony. But, if your boy is screaming for Mommy while you’re kicking him… you’re not kicking hard enough.

If he’s screaming, he’s not hurt yet.

[Bau13]

this is turning into a "tough guy" thread..
not a martial arts thread...

[Tony10]

Angelo: you're right. Royce did seem to be able to work even while pinned against the fence. I think you get the idea, though. And no, I'm not referring to people grabbing the fence to avoid the takedown.

Mickey: LOL!