So you think BJJ is effective for street self defense?

[cam427]

Uke,

Your obviously huge intellect and fantastic debating style has left me unable to respond .

JKD187, I am with you completely. All this bullshit has left me with a bad taste in my mouth so I am heading to the gym to do some training.

Cam

PS: I do not have BJJ club. I do train in MMA which includes BJJ in the curriculum (like all good MMA schools).

[Uke]

Uke,

Your obviously huge intellect and fantastic debating style has left me unable to respond .

JKD187, I am with you completely. All this bullshit has left me with a bad taste in my mouth so I am heading to the gym to do some training.

Cam

PS: I do not have BJJ club. I do train in MMA which includes BJJ in the curriculum (like all good MMA schools).

"But I bet the facts, examples, logic and the question of how many fights they've won on their feet and what techniques they used to win will be responded to with more rhetoric."

Can I call it or what? Cam's sarcasm is just a clever way of tapping out. It seems that the value of BJJ here was to highlight a few people's own ignorance concerning their own style.

And FYI Cam, JKD187 was talking about you and a few others when he made those comments in his last post, so its pretty big of you to agree with him "completely". And this debate couldn't have left that bad of a taste in your mouth as I notice you went back and read the previous page's post addressed to you and responded.

Train hard and good luck ... oh and uhhh...

Thanks for your comments.

[cam427]

One last thing,

I was discussing your exercise and I have found a solution.

If the guy is using a black marker, get a black t-shirt.

LOL LOL LOL

[cam427]

[QUOTE=JKD187] do you people hear yourselfs....? i mean come on with the fuckin scenarios and shyt like that
QUOTE]

and he was talking about me?

I agree with everything he said!

[XavierFrost]

boarspear-

i dont think you quite get the analogy.... im not here trying to argue swimming..... and the means of getting out of the water (ladder, walking out oonto the beach) really dont have much to do with it. it was meant to show that there will always be some kind of situation someone can come up with that negates a form of training. I think the analogy works for what it was intended for....... its the swimming that the person trains for, not using a ladder at the end, im not sure why you thought that would matter.

uke-

have you ever considered that the people you see fighting in the gaurd are doing it because it is one part of BJJ, and therefore they like to train that aspect of their game? i would think that if a BJJ'er of moderate to good skill got involved in a fight, their first instinct would perhpas be to look to take the guy down, mount him, then ground and pound or look for a low risk submission. i sincerely doubt anyone here would honestly tell you that you should look to play from the guard for a substantial amount of time in a real fight. I would think that they would tell you (id rather not put too many words in other's mouths, something that has come up before in this discussion) that if they got caught in the guard in that situation, they are looking for the sweep to put the fight in a better position. being on the bottom is recognized almost all the time as an inferior poisition to being on top. But that doesnt mean that the possibility of it happening shouldnt be recognized, and therefore trained in to find the best ways to handle that siutation.

my previous post was not angry. i would go with bored. this discussion doesnt add anything, and you seem to keep wanting to perpetuate nothingness, so i ask you again, please stop, and lets all move on to better post so i can stop feeling like i need to post and can just enjoy some legitimate knowldege and advice on MMA. I enjoyed jdk's responses, and they were described by you as mature. I agree with jdk, but the style of his last response wasnt the most mature way to say it (although he writes like i feel, so go you jdk). but its mature because he agrees with you to an extent and doesnt necessarily really make you question anything you believe. i even agree with you to an extent uke, because the amount of stuff youve put out there would make it hard for anyone to disagree with completely. plus, alot of the things you say, like i mentioned before, are very much common sense and do not really eleveate the conversation. your assumptions on what BJJ'ers as a whole would do in a fight is naive. so let's jsut let it go. im sure it would make alot of us much happier to really focus on an arguement that had a real chance to go somewhere.

Frost

P.s.- you're right uke, i cant be an authority on anymans thoughts other than my own, but someone can sure be an authority on someone elses words (intersting distinction). Now, im not an authority on Relson Gracie, his thoughts, his words, his family life, etc. just so you know. I never claimed to be so i'll say it now in plain speach so theres no confusion. But having spent the time with him before that I have, and having directly asked the same kinds of questions that occur in this thread, i just dont really see what you say happening. just my two cents.

[BoarSpear]

You think swimming is an effective means of getting yourself out of water?

Nah i got what you were trying to say...but read the sentence you wrote...getting out of the water is different from swimming through it...it takes a different type of movement....so basically you just argued against yourself...by your comparison a swimmer with no other skills will drown because he cant get out of the water.... much like a bjj guy with no other skills will be screwed just like your hypothetical swimmer

[XavierFrost]

cam has inspired me, we are just arguing on an mma board over a useless topic. you criticize him for leaving, but im going out to enjoy life and not sit at my computer.

boar spear- i appreciate what you are saying, though i think perhaps that may be looking too much into the specific words there..... i meant that swimming will pretty much put you in a position to get out of the water, or near the beach or near a ladder at the edge of a pool, however you like. my point was focused on swimming not on the act of getting out, but in getting yourself into a better position to do so... but you're right, i shouldve been a little more specific in that regard. and now im off, i dont think i can really spend much more time on this board when there are more rewarding things in the real life to be done...

[dkm]

I still don't understand what Uke's recommendation is here.

[pstevens]

Uke has no recommendations... His experiment is a joke... The guy can't even refute my remarks... What a moron.

What does Uke's experiment prove? That a guy whose invited to sit at the end of the endzone with his legs wrapped around someone will get markered to death.

What it DOESN'T prove is the ineffectiveness of BJJ, or the effectiveness of self-defense systems. It's like saying, "pigs can't fly, but dogs can."

Nowhere in the "experiment" did self-defense prevail, so how does one draw this conclusion? You can't.

I have a better experiment for all of you, include Uke. Take some friends and follow a BJJ and a self-defense person around. When they least expect it, pounce them with rubber knives. After several trials, average the outcomes into statistical data (average response rate, success rate, etc...), then you will have a better understanding of what REAL self-defense is.

This is a more objective scenario and avoids bias in any favor. That's it for me now... This thread is officially moronic...

[Tom Yum]

One up

Can any reality based self-defense defeat ricin?

Can any reality based self-defense defeat electron capture, beta-particle or positron decay?

How about the laws of thermodynamics?

I'm getting insecure about my grappling training now....

[BoarSpear]

Take some friends and follow a BJJ and a self-defense person around. When they least expect it, pounce them with rubber knives. After several trials, average the outcomes into statistical data (average response rate, success rate, etc...), then you will have a better understanding of what REAL self-defense is.

now I know you dont know anything about self defense... jump a bjj guy and if he gets it right, you might get a broken arm etc. jump a guy trained for and aware of street fighting with a rubber knife you will probably get stabbed or shot with a real weapon. people who train for the street will notice a couple people stalking them and be ready when you try your silly experiment...be sure to bring a video camera so we can watch the mayhem on rotten.com.
people who train for self defense realize they live in a dangerous world and try to be alert...most bjj people as evidenced by this thread seem to believe they are invulnerable to street attacks because of one on one success in the ring. instead of being alert many seem to be in a self induced fog of arrogance.

no sense in arguing about it though, in time when enough bjj people are seriously injured or killed on the street you will wake up to the fact no ONE art is the answer for the street....if guys have to crosstrain for the ring its evident you MUST crosstrain for the streets. note also that a stand up fighter is less likely to be in this position because he is a stand up fighter, and realizes the ground is death to a warrior. so he will avoid the ground at all cost as opposed to treating it as his friend.

note also self defense people dont get in fights over b.s. because they are aware actual bad people tend to travel in packs and carry weapons making fighting likely to involve weapons. not bar room brawls and drunken fools ...thats fighting, not self defense...self defense is against those intent on injuring you or killing you... not beating you up.

one more thing while we're on this subject if i had to bet on a fight pitting the worlds best MT man against 3 thugs and a fight with the worlds best bjj guy against 3 thugs, its evident the man who can break a baseball bat with a kick could snap a couple legs pretty quickly to even the odds...since pure bjj people lack that skill its gonna be easy i'll take the MT man's odds. Remember street fights rarely involve martial arts trained thugs so the MT would be able to land those kicks (they land them in the ring on trained opponents ) while we have all seen the pitiful striking ability of the gracies (which we have also seen illustrated in the ring)...who would be forced to rely on gjj ground skills...

[Uke]

JKD187, I am with you completely.

Cam

Go back and read his entire post since you are with him "completely". If you actually read the whole thing, you might actually see what he was saying to you and Xavier.

PS How many fights have you won on your feet using the many techniques of BJJ? You answer seemed to disappear from your response. Hmm...

[Uke]

Pstevens

Uke has no recommendations... His experiment is a joke... The guy can't even refute my remarks... What a moron.

What does Uke's experiment prove? That a guy whose invited to sit at the end of the endzone with his legs wrapped around someone will get markered to death.

What it DOESN'T prove is the ineffectiveness of BJJ, or the effectiveness of self-defense systems. It's like saying, "pigs can't fly, but dogs can."

Nowhere in the "experiment" did self-defense prevail, so how does one draw this conclusion? You can't.

I have a better experiment for all of you, include Uke. Take some friends and follow a BJJ and a self-defense person around. When they least expect it, pounce them with rubber knives. After several trials, average the outcomes into statistical data (average response rate, success rate, etc...), then you will have a better understanding of what REAL self-defense is.

This is a more objective scenario and avoids bias in any favor. That's it for me now... This thread is officially moronic...

Seems like someone already beat me to punch. Nicely done, BoarSpear. I couldn't have said it better myself. What points have you EVER made that hasn't been addressed and categorically refuted, Pstevens? Your words demonstrate just how inexperienced you are, and I am not the first to say so, if you read the above post. You are completely mixed up, and your confusion still leads you to believe that I stated that a self defense man would fare better in the exercise that I outlined. You could only come to that conclusion because you cannot read very well, but excel at calling names when you have nothing of value to offer.

Still, I appreciate your comments and thank you for representing BJJ here in this debate. If it weren't for angry, energetic BJJ fans like you, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to prove my points against an opposing view.

Thanks for making it easy, little buddy.

PS Pstevens, how many fights have you won on your feet using the many techniques of BJJ? For you to claim that my exercise was a "joke", you must have won many fights on your feet using just BJJ, correct? Well why don't you just tell us on the forum how many fights you've won on your feet with just BJJ techniques? Your entire contention is that BJJ DOES NOT HAVE TO GO TO THE GROUND. So out of the many, many fights that you've had to gain this insight .....

HOW MANY OF THEM HAVE YOU WON ON YOUR FEET USING ONLY BJJ?

*note* He didn't answer this the last time I asked him, and chances are after he reads this he'll probably choke out his little brother and girlfriend just to get some victories on his feet.

[Tcell]

Hi Uke,
Don't really agree with all your points.
BJJ is not the be all end all of combat, sport or otherwise (I don't think many people think it is). But then what art is?

When I roll I usually go for a dominant position & don't automatically pull guard.
There's quite a few throws/takedowns you can use in BJJ to plant someone that don't involve you going down, there's also takedown defence the two sort of go together ( not even gonna mention arm drags).

If I went down with someone in my guard on 'teh str33t' (assuming they've got better takedowns) then I might just open my guard & stand up, scramblimg equips you to get up quick!
Of course that's assuming I don't get ktfo on the way down!
My mate who only does BJJ was attacked by a larger guy at a petrol station,he tripped him & held him down until he was out of breath & had calmed down.
Your example of people in competitions not finishing quickly may have something to do with the fact that they are against other combat athletes?

Just out of interest what is your style & experience in martial arts?

[SamuraiGuy]

So its ... been awhile... since I last posted,and I read through alot of the posts since then... I'm just gonna offer up some more opinions... and reply to Ukes, reply to me...

You said If he (my instructor) is getting the best of me while standing up, that im not being aggressive enough, this is somewhat valid, as I would say I am relaxed when fighting/sparring... however... even if I do attack, say I shoot, or attempt to go for underhooks, he will just sprawl or put me down anyway... I like the fact that he can do this as it lets me know he has things to teach me.

You said if he was submitting me from the gaurd that easily it is because I have little grappling experience... relatively I have very little grappling experience... but I do have grappling experience.... I have about 3 weeks under this guy, and 2 months under a purple belt... this guy isnt just submitting me from the guard, although he can with ease, he is submitting me from every which way... I can hold my own against any of the whitebelts, although some get the better of me, and I've even tapped a blue ( I know im amazing, hold the applause). The point is, you'd think I'd be able to at least pull gaurd on him, or fight him off somewhat.. but hes just that good its like everything I know doesnt work... I've seen him do this to other people too.

Third, you said it might be that im In bad shape... well I'm not, I do MMA (wrestling boxing jiu jitsu kickboxing) almost everyday, and have football four times a week. I deadlift twice my bodyweight, and Bench 100 pounds over my bodyweight... etc... I dont even lift weights anymore... I dont get tired at all when rolling.. as mentioned before im pretty relaxed... so I dont think fitness has much to dowith it.

The "poison hand" techniques you mentioned are all from my previous Krav Maga training, good news, I'm not a bjj guy .... hehe.... I dont doubt its effectiveness though, honestly in your scenario I would probably try to get my knees in (not sure what gaurd this is)... then pop a knee out, and start kicking to the face.... or hammer fists to the groin, watever.... I can also stand up after the kicks in the face, assuming they go through.


Now to respond to boarspear....

"I asked earlier where people get the idea it takes seconds to deploy a blade...many people can deploy a blade and hit a specific target in under 1 second..." (boarspear)

Im sure many people can deploy a blade and hit something with it in a second... actually a second is pretty fast.. but sure well say a second, my point is, those people are probably trained in knife fighting.. but lets say the average joe can do it... everythings going in your favor so far... what if that person has just been thrown onto the concrete, or is being choked... as I said before.. you arent thinking about stabbing someone, and I doubt you would have your knife in your hand (most likely the pocket), it depends on the situation, but I feel its just as likely you can choke the person out before they can stab you, if only due to the "OH SHIT" reaction.

"thats because its your mindset...train that losing means dying, then when under stress you will still go ouch, but at the same time you will be doing whatever it takes to remove the problem."

Hrmmm we had a previous.... argument... lol... and I think you knew I did Krav Maga, well that is exactly what I've been training to get rid of in Krav Maga, that mindset, before you were saying Krav Maga wasnt all its cracked up to be , and now you say its concepts are good? Im a little confused... in response though, I dont train in BJJ for self defense... I do it because its fun, and If the planets align or something I can use it in MMA one day. I know which type of proper self defesne mindset you speak of.

Its the same as the Krav Maga concept that if someone does pull a knife on you, even if he does stab you, keep fighting cause that might kill you, but he will definetly kill you if you dont start hitting him back, or running or w/e.

As for the cross training... my bjj is cross training for my Krav Maga... haha... and I also count the wrestling, boxing and kickboxing I do as cross training to.

To sum up:

Bjj doesnt have the best mindset for self defense.
In Ukes scenario the BJJ guy woudl most likely die.
In Ukes scenario anyone would most likely die.
BJJ is best ground style there is, it would end the fight most quickly. (If used with the proper mindset).
BJJ doesnt have all the tools for self defense, it is extremely good at one of the five things I say would matter in a streetfight.

Standup, Ground, Transition Area (clinch, takedowns, wrestling) MENTALITY, and physical size/condition.