wing chun anti-grappling

[jubaji]

say somebody takes the straight arm bar,the moment the calf comes near the mouth..opportunity for a bite,and a calf bite bloody hurts!

Reading your LARP-arific nonsense bloody hurts.

[DJColdfusion]

Firecobra, if you are ever in Utah (USA) come on out to our school, look us up at http://www.slcbjj.com we have plenty of room to train and I will welcome your bite to my calf when I crank on an armbar. And I'm being 100% serious here. I will let you bite, scratch, pinch, headbutt, whatever . . . but I will count as fair anything that you try on me. So, if you bite, I'll bite, if you attempt a fish hook, I will fish hook. If you try to headbutt me, I'll plant my head completely through your skull.

There are no secret moves. There are no secret tactics. Anyone can play dirty and the person with the training that gives them the low level balance, the timint, explosiveness, and kinisthetic sense that the grappler learns over time will be able to apply the dirty tricks with MUCH greater effectiveness than the McDojo refugee that thinks their secret technique will save them.

[fire cobra]

Dont take it all sooo personally guys! i was only saying those techniques work in grappling situations(yes for anyone!) they would even work for rickson gracie or randy couture,my god now you all want to kill me for my opinion,baseball bat me etc! he he its a crazy world eh.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Dont take it all sooo personally guys! i was only saying those techniques work in grappling situations(yes for anyone!) they would even work for rickson gracie or randy couture,my god now you all want to kill me for my opinion,baseball bat me etc! he he its a crazy world eh.

Proper capitalization and punctuation would raise other's opinion of you by ten fold.

[J-Luck]

J-Luck,I still cant agree sorry dude,say somebody takes the straight arm bar,the moment the calf comes near the mouth..opportunity for a bite,and a calf bite bloody hurts!,guess my posts on this wont go down well in a mma forum,my main point was that wing chun folk or anyother martial artist dont need to learn a grappling sysyem(though i do think it would benefit them in lots of ways to do so)to get them out of "street style" ground fighting.

Say this is a not a sparring armbar, similar to rolling in class. Say this is an armbar that would be utilized in an mma or jiu-jitsu match. Say the arm is broken within a second. Say there is no time to bite untill after the arm is rendered a useless, hanging piece of meet.

Lemme shatter your elbow, and then you can bite me. We'll see who wins. . Remember, in class, you can bite me if I armbar you, I'll still shatter your arm, but you could certainly take a chunk of my leg with you. However, in a real life scenerio, Ill shatter your elbow, then get up, and asess the situation from there.

I understand your main point. It's just wrong. Iv'e made strong, valid points, for which you've had no response. In order to even continue in this debate, you'd have to address my previous points.

That being said, you seem like a nice guy. Just misguieded by rhetoric.

Has nothing to do with an MMA forum, I've trained and still train in various combatives. I understand the value of a good bite, an eye gouge, ect., ect.

You dont realise that positioning is always key. Even with dirty techniques. They are still techniques, are they not? Techniques have positions in which they are effective, and those in which they are not.

[J-Luck]

Dont take it all sooo personally guys! i was only saying those techniques work in grappling situations(yes for anyone!) they would even work for rickson gracie or randy couture,my god now you all want to kill me for my opinion,baseball bat me etc! he he its a crazy world eh.

It's just that you can't seem to refute a point with any logic or reasoning. You seem to think something, and can't back it up under scrutiny.

[DJColdfusion]

Dont take it all sooo personally guys! i was only saying those techniques work in grappling situations(yes for anyone!) they would even work for rickson gracie or randy couture,my god now you all want to kill me for my opinion,baseball bat me etc! he he its a crazy world eh.

First, contrary to popular belief, an "opinion" is not something you just pick out of the sky. You have to have a reason for having the opinion and that reason has to have a foundation of some sort. If you foundation is faulty then your opinion is shyte.

Second, and most importantly, I'm not making threats and I don't want to kill you, hell I don't even want to hurt you. I just want to give you the opportunity to find out if the horse-patooey your instructor has told you is true or not.

I don't want this to become emotionally combative. I just think your biting statement is not only wrong, but dangerous. I can just see someone trying to defend an armbar with a bite in a violent situation and not only ending up with a broken arm but getting their face curbed as retribution for the bite.

You have to understand simple things like when you are in a bad position and what to do to not make it even worse before you can start to think about adding "dirt".

And I won't tell you that biting is always a bad thing; however, you better: #1 be in a position where your opponent cannot bite you back, #2 be able to create enough space that you are able to escape and get the hell out of there. Both points bring us back to understanding when you are in a bad position . . . if you are and you bite will you get away or just piss them off? Do you know your hip-escape and technical standup well enough that you can explode away from your attacker and get to your feet before the distraction caused by your bite dissapates as their adrenaline kicks in and you get to feel your skull bouncing off the cement from the pointy side of their elbow?

Biting, gouging, fish hooking, eye poking, are not even close to a secondary attack option unless you already have a sound grappling back ground. Otherwise your just much more likely to just piss off your opponent and get yourself seriously maimed.

[DJColdfusion]

You dont realise that positioning is always key. Even with dirty techniques. They are still techniques, are they not? Techniques have positions in which they are effective, and those in which they are not.

Very good point.

[Tom Yum]

A few key points that have been brought up:

1. Dirty Techniques: TMA stylists argue that dirty techniques can counter submission holds.

I think there is some truth to this, DJ - I think a dirty technique could be a good distraction to buy time and work on a legitimate escape/reversal.

Dirty techniques don't seem to workout as stylists portray them in their choreographed demonstrations - which is sometimes portrayed as the entire reversal itself.

For FireCobra and others, check out the match between Royce Gracie vs. Gerard Gordeau in UFC 2, I believe. Gordeau bit Gracies ear, at some point during the match while they were working on the ground - it pissed of Gracie even more and caused him to keep his choke on a little longer...

2. To defend against grappling, stylists need to train in....grappling.

There's no escaping this. A quick side kick to the knee might hurt your opponent, but chances are it won't make him go limp and sit there as done in demonstrations; it takes several side kicks or one planted with perfect timing to really take out a leg and by the time the first side kick has landed, the fight has escalated into a clinch or to the ground.

Moving forward: Reviewing clip after clip of anti-grappling demonstrations, the wing-tsun stylists appear to want to keep the fight standing where they can overwhelm their opponents with strikes in the infighting range..

or

keep the top position if they are forced to the ground so they can continue striking their opponent into unconsciousness or maim them?

Why not integrate free style wrestling?

The style has excellent takedown defenses and seeks to maintain the top position while on the ground. A creative genious would be able to see where he could execute his wingchun strikes, while controlling his opponent with wrestling defenses or holds.

If they want to keep it eastern, they could just as easily pick sambo, shuaijiao or judo.

[J-Luck]

First, contrary to popular belief, an "opinion" is not something you just pick out of the sky. You have to have a reason for having the opinion and that reason has to have a foundation of some sort. If you foundation is faulty then your opinion is shyte.

Second, and most importantly, I'm not making threats and I don't want to kill you, hell I don't even want to hurt you. I just want to give you the opportunity to find out if the horse-patooey your instructor has told you is true or not.

I don't want this to become emotionally combative. I just think your biting statement is not only wrong, but dangerous. I can just see someone trying to defend an armbar with a bite in a violent situation and not only ending up with a broken arm but getting their face curbed as retribution for the bite.

You have to understand simple things like when you are in a bad position and what to do to not make it even worse before you can start to think about adding "dirt".

And I won't tell you that biting is always a bad thing; however, you better: #1 be in a position where your opponent cannot bite you back, #2 be able to create enough space that you are able to escape and get the hell out of there. Both points bring us back to understanding when you are in a bad position . . . if you are and you bite will you get away or just piss them off? Do you know your hip-escape and technical standup well enough that you can explode away from your attacker and get to your feet before the distraction caused by your bite dissapates as their adrenaline kicks in and you get to feel your skull bouncing off the cement from the pointy side of their elbow?

Biting, gouging, fish hooking, eye poking, are not even close to a secondary attack option unless you already have a sound grappling back ground. Otherwise your just much more likely to just piss off your opponent and get yourself seriously maimed.

Well put as usual my friend.

[DJColdfusion]

A few key points that have been brought up:

1. Dirty Techniques: TMA stylists argue that dirty techniques can counter submission holds.

I think there is some truth to this, DJ - I think a dirty technique could be a good distraction to buy time and work on a legitimate escape/reversal.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that dirty techniques can help in a desparate situation; however, it is my assertion that the mere application of these techniques is no where near enough. They are not a magical panacea. They are, really at best, a tool to create a distraction and hopefully a little space that may allow the victim of an assault to then use well practiced grappling techniques to escape a dangerous situation.

By themselves they will do two things:

#1 piss off someone who has already decided to cause you harm

and

#2 Leave you in a position where the individual who wants to cause you harm can continue to cause you harm.

The skills needed to escape the situation are found by spending day after day in a Jiu-Jitsu gi (or even a Judo-gi if you train at a Newaza happy dojo) getting your ass handed to you by people who are just plain more skilled, tougher, and are dedicated to your growth in the art and show that dedication by taking it to you.

And yes, I honestly think everyone in the world should train Jiu-Jitsu . . . and NO it doesn’t have to be the center of their training but the skills taught absolutely must be there.

Why not integrate free style wrestling?

The style has excellent takedown defenses and seeks to maintain the top position while on the ground. A creative genious would be able to see where he could execute his wingchun strikes, while controlling his opponent with wrestling defenses or holds.

If they want to keep it eastern, they could just as easily pick sambo, shuaijiao or judo.

One of my training partners is a world class wrestler . . . and yes I mean WORLD CLASS . . . just to illustrate this point, here’s his bio from MaximumG.com

Brandon Ruiz is a world class wrestler who won his high school state championships twice and has been recognized as a 4X Greco Roman and Freestyle All American, a Pan-American silver medalist in Greco Roman, a 2X U.S. Open All-American, a 3X Pancrase Submission Wrestling North American Champion (220 pound + Expert division), an ADCC North American World Trials Semi-Finalist, and much more.

And if you know Brandon then you will also know that his brother is an even better wrestler than he is (he took third in the worlds and was the only American to medal in Greco). However, every time they roll for submissions Brandon destroys his brother.

There’s no doubt that the skills will help you a tremendous amount, and I can’t over-emphasize that, but how often do you get to choose who you are going to be assaulted by, or how you are going to be assaulted? How much good will your sprawl do you when you are tackled from behind or trip over a chair as your trying to escape an assault by running out of the bar you were in?

Wrestling is an awesome sport and the sport, the techniques, the training will definitely help your training and improve your overall grappling game but it just isn’t enough.

In other words, I completely agree with you . . . with a little addition here and ther.

[jubaji]

Wrestling isn't gonna help very much with submissions, so that is important to work on, but that's all.

[jubaji]

How much good will your sprawl do you when you are tackled from behind or trip over a chair as your trying to escape an assault by running out of the bar you were in?

Reversals and escapes.

[Tom Yum]

That's awesome, DJ.

I've been whooped by some decent wrestlers and I'm not afraid to admit it. While they weren't All-American champs, they were quite good and competitive at the collegiate level; I learned some pretty decent fundamentals in the process of getting taken down and man handled.

I studied free-style for about 2 semesters (10 months), but the club, non-competitive team was unable to continue its funding since few people were interested in learning it for self-defense, fitness or as a hobby.