MMA is Not Self Defense!

[ShawnJKD]

Excellent post and nothing I disagree with.

I stick by my belief that if you train under resistance then you will fight the way you train with whatever good and bad habits/technique that may include. I believe training with resistance, even with bad habits, is better than training without resistance.

I believe standup is the better way to go in a multi-attacker scenario, the "boxing" videos back that up, and I don't see how they apply to the MMA is not self-defense argument. I will mention though that Mike Tyson and many other boxers broke their hands when fighting in the street - hence the "Boxer's Fracture". So, there may be better ways to strike for self defense than those that a boxer uses. Doesn't mean that boxing won't work.

*shrug* Mike you make good points all round. I "tap" to you and admit I need more training all around before I'll ever have all the answers.

[Ghost]

imo the guys that come up with gloves rules argument havent sparred with a boxer.
When i came across to thai boxing from karate i thought i could fight. i thought looking at boxing and thai boxing that it would be fairly easy to counter.
This was 10 years ago or so now and i tell you i got bashed from one side of the ring to the other and back again.
Far from being able to land open hand techniques or even look for a kick to the groin i had so much coming my way and the thing was....
it was well coordinated , well balanced, tried and tested, with rhythm, speed and power. I think for an onlooker i looked like a punch bag.

The reality hits when you spar with someone good. I agree with the notion that its ulimately the person that makes the fighter but i 100% believe that some systems are superior to others in nearly every aspect but that there are some things to be learnt too.

no offense to some of the JKD guys on here but the average JKD wont keep up with an average boxer when it comes to hands for instance. on average id say even. which is saying something i think.

[Tant01]

Perhaps I was fortunate to be exposed to boxing early in my life...? I'm sure I've mentioned getting my face punched in? LOL

Sheeesh, if there was EVER a reason for footwork, an on GUARD "stance" or evasion skills, it's to avoid getting KO'd by a guy that knows how to throw a punch.

Seriously, if you can't make him miss you're in BIG trouble. Don't ask me how I know.

Keep your guard UP!

[Ghost]

No offense taken here, Ghost! That's actually one of the biggest reasons I took up boxing, and it's likely one of the reasons people like Guro Dan and Vunak so often recommend that others do likewise.

There's a lot of truth to what you posted, no matter how upset people want to get by it.

cool, i am aware that there are plenty of JKD delving deeper into boxing but i was speaking on averages but you obviously know what i mean.

[Ghost]

oh man that must have sucked for the cop. I know really very little about guns. am facinated by them and would love to learn really a lot about them but i saw on tv they were saying that it can take cops 5-7 shots sometimes to just stop someone sometimes hence the rise of guns with higher capacity mags.
any truth in that, sorry i know a little off topic just interested, a brief reply would do. thanks

[Tant01]

"You're gonna need more than that"

[ShawnJKD]

I don't think the cop training in boxing would have helped him. That's why they have weight classes. Yes, being bigger and stronger makes a huge difference.

Look, I can accept that MMA can be a viable approach to self defense training - I conceded the point.

I don't understand how you can use people like Dan Inosanto and Paul Vunak to back up the idea that sport combatives are the only way to learn to defend yourself. Guro Inosanto continues to teach Jun Fan and Kali and hopefully believes they are valid, I think in recent interviews he says he thinks himself as a Silat man more than anything else. We know the MMA crowd laughs at Silat. Vunak has his own take on things that contains material the MMA crowd claims don't work (pinching and biting for two).

I can't agree with you that gloves don't make a difference (even the MMA ones). I have boxed. I started out with boxing and judo in the way back when. I will state though that I have not competed as a boxer, just in the gym sparring. I have seen many boxers that have broken their hands and wrists in street fights. They can generate tremendous power in their punches, but without the glovs and wraps some of the damage comes back on them. Those who broke their hands though still managed to break more important things on their attackers and "won" the fight. If by using a different striking approach I can win and still keep my hands intact (and not walk around in a cast for 6 weeks) I'd rather use the different approach regardless of how effective boxing is, but I will continue to learn from boxers.

To say that you don't need to train groin shots or eye jabs because they are simple and will just happen makes as much sense as my saying the rear naked choke is simple and requires no training. They all ARE simple and direct (including the RNC) but require trained skill to set up and execute effectively. And yes I know that the argument will be that MMA sport combatives give you that training and as I said I concede the point. Comes the idea that the sport combative approach is a good supplement to other more "traditional" training and should be adopted by other systems that may not have it. A very JKD idea, no?

Given that I am not a pro athlete looking for a career in the ring it doesn't make sense for me to adopt the ring limitations (minor as they may be or may not be) along with the training ideas and work ethic that are certainly fuctional.

Now, if this is just exactly as predicted it would be in the way of response and the arguments are just spinning wheels for you, than please let me know and I'll stop.

[Ghost]

you could argue that while trying to "set up" an eye gouge as you put it , a boxer will hav hit you 3 times and have you concussed.
this is what i dont get. You cant be looking for trying to do certain things. the fight flows and you react. sure training an eye gouge may be relevant at some point of the fight.
I just think there are better ways to spend your time.
TBH at the point where an eye gouge is available its pretty obvious anyway.

The problem is when someone says that they can do better than a boxer because they have eye gouges and groin shots etc.
No offense but it smacks of lack of experience in sparring.

[ShawnJKD]

You think boxers and MMA fighters don't set things up? They just "react and the fight flows"?

[Ghost]

You think boxers and MMA fighters don't set things up? They just "react and the fight flows"?

in a street fight?

and you are missing my point, trying to set up an eye gouge against a boxer... think about it.

[TTEscrima]

I looked for some more videos of sport fighting against other types of realistic training. Found one of a boxer against a cop armed with pepper spray, a radio, and a pistol. Boxer is shot in the belly and still manages to beat the cop near to death.

And TTE, would you care to guess what saved our hero the cop in this case?

Backup - his buddies - showed up.

Maybe there's some creedence in all this Army Combatives nonsense after all...

YouTube - Cop Fight For His Life Against Ex-Pro Boxer

Which of these two "trained for reality?" Which one was hindered by all those bad ring habits (like determination, will to win, competitiveness, aggression...)?

Said it before...saying it again,
It's the man, not the style. The firstest with the mostest...

I said it on page 2 or so.

It's about the person and not the art.

Now the pure humor of you trying to portray police officers as trained professionals is worth reading this thread all by it's lonesome. How many videos of cops shooting themselves, their partners or firing 75 rounds and all missing their target do we need to refute that? Now before you start jumping up down pop into any LEO forum and read it, they complain about the piss poor training they receive themselves. Besides you can find plenty of stories of MMA guys dying in streetfights or winding up in the hospital. I know of at at least 2 famous MMA people who are hardened criminals who targeted women and the elderly. What's all this mean? It means it's all about the individual which we already covered eh? Talk about predictable behavior following a script. This is interesting since it seems you're saying MMA is SD, or at least thats the impression all this seems to be intended to give. See the title to the thread, Is MMA SD? That's a yes or no question. I said No and went further to say nothing you learn in any school is, you have to functionalize your training before it becomes SD. All this "what if "and "this one time BS" is just that because ANYTHING could be classified SD in some situations and it only needs to work once for people to want to point it out as proof of its validity.

[TTEscrima]

Gosh. We seem to have strayed a good deal from the whole "Can you use it for self defense" and right on into the "MMA guys can be real assholes" line of logic.

Actually I was simply illustrating that one cop getting beat up by a boxer doesn't prove anything more about using boxing in a gunfight than 2 famous MMA fighters being scumbag criminals proves about MMA fighters being criminals.

As for cops being trained? They are. In reality based methods, no less. And they go hands on with people a whole lot more often than soldiers.

Well "since cops go hands on with people a whole lot more often than soldiers" the fact that one of the most respected LEO officers and trainers I know has a shirt and motto: "You can't tap out on the street" says a lot! So it seems the guys who nearly always have backup and go hands on most find MMA unacceptable for SD. Once again read the LEO forums, the common consensus is it doesn't get the job done.

My contention is that MMA can be used for self-defense, that it has been used for self-defense, and that it going to continue to be used for self-defense into the foreseeable future. Self-defense is the act of defending oneself, yes? If an MMA guy does that successfully (gasp! I know...it's actually happened on occasion), then MMA was self-defense in that instance. May not be your favorite thing to accept, but it does happen.

I've heard of some incredibly stupid reactions to stress that somehow worked out, like the lady who gave the rapist her number and said "I'm too busy now but call me later" And by god it WORKED, sheesh guess that makes it a viable SD technique huh? May not be your favorite thing to accept, but it did happen, so it was self-defense in that instance. Run right out and teach your wives and daughters folks.

[DickHardman]

If you (and others) are going to insist on asserting that sports martial arts are no good for self defense, then you need to have some valid reasons why this professional boxer was able to take out a professionally trained, gun weilding police officer. After all, if the so-called "sport" methods are no good for reality, that never ever should have happened. But it did, and that completely destroys the argument you've been making.

And what do you know? All that boxing didn't seem to affect the boxer's ability to grab, disarm, kick or anything. Odd, isn't it? All those things coming naturally to someone tainted by rules and regulations?

it also destroys that argument you hear the SD guys always use, that you will fight the way you train, no exceptions. they completely disregard the remarkable ability of the human mind to adapt to various situations.

[lb1978]

YouTube - Why Aliveness? Matt Thornton explains

[HERQ454]

The two positions that are coming out in this discussion is one stating sport martial arts are valid(and some stating its all you need) where the other side is stating you need more than the sports martial arts offer(with some stating sports martial arts arent valid).
Lets make it simple.If you use it and it works,IT WORKS.
Do MMA methods and principles cover every possible situation in 'street' situations?NO
Would MMA methods and priciples be great in a 'street' situation.HELL YEAH
Percentage wise in a 'street' situation it probably would be the highest.

The head doorman I work with comes from a boxing background and is phenominal to watch in action.But in one situation his hand swelled up due to infection because he used a closed fist and scraped a bit of knuckle open on the guys tooth.Normally he avoids this and uses palm heel strikes.
Did the boxing fail him,NO.Was there a side effect,Yes.

Remember that quote of Bruce Lee's taking about how different fighters look at combat from their own unique viewpoint and miss the total view.Dont we all agree thats this is a valid point.