Brazilian Ju-Jitsu

[Guest]

That pretty much answers my question.

I think all of us need to be careful in offering "Get REAL" advice to people, if we can't articulate a rationale from REAL experience. Because what's "REAL" about that?

[Tant01]

Getting real...

While I prefer BJJ or Judo to almost everything else, for combat effectiveness....I gotta say, this is fantastic!!

YouTube - Penchak Silat Absolute Efficiency

Or at least, it LOOKS fantastic...now, I know I can't judge an entire art after seeing just a few videos....

My question is, how is this so dissimilar to say, Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Krav Maga or even traditional Japanese Ju-jitsu or Ed Parker Kenpo? I see many similarities.....

The effectiveness of any particular style depends on the man DOING IT and his VICTIM.

You can cripple a guy and feel bad about it or you can cripple a guy and later wish you had killed him.

I can't really discuss details about a certain case right now but you can go free from criminal prosecution only to find yourself in CIVIL court YEARS later...

[Tant01]

Who does it..

I understand what you are saying, but you really did not answer my question:

/./..........

.

Yes, I did. ART is just ART. The things to do are not limited to any particular STYLE.

Silat is just Judo with an attitude and a blade...




"The efficiency of the art depends on the skilful application of theoretical knowledge developed upon the experience of centuries"


Gunji Koizumi

[kingoftheforest]

All MA's have the same goal. It's just the "doctorine". That changes each one.

Most MA's are locked in an "It has to be done this way." attitude.

Without ever considering there may be another way.

2 arms 2 legs head and a torso. Only so many combinations, only so much range of motion.

It depends on what YOUR body does with it that makes it work.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu covers an important aspect of a fight that should not be ignored, in my opinion. Whether you want to take the fight to the ground is irrelevant, sometimes, one can almost argue all the time, shit occurs when you don't want it to. You may find yourself tripping or bum rushed to the ground. When those kind of situations occur, you need to know how to safely escape from your position and run or to attempt to apply a quick submission to end it right there as soon as possible.

Simply stating "I'm just not going to end up there" would be most unwise. That's like saying "I just won't get punched" in a scuffle. In a fight you're bound to get hit, people who are good just get hit less.

Everyone thinks that just because someone trains BJJ that they'll automatically jump guard in a street fight, which is simply not the case. A quick takedown that dunks the opponent into the floor will take him out for the fight and allow you to escape or address the situation.

[Guest]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu covers an important aspect of a fight that should not be ignored, in my opinion. Whether you want to take the fight to the ground is irrelevant, sometimes, one can almost argue all the time, shit occurs when you don't want it to. You may find yourself tripping or bum rushed to the ground. When those kind of situations occur, you need to know how to safely escape from your position and run or to attempt to apply a quick submission to end it right there as soon as possible.

Simply stating "I'm just not going to end up there" would be most unwise. That's like saying "I just won't get punched" in a scuffle. In a fight you're bound to get hit, people who are good just get hit less.

Great post.

[TTEscrima]

Everyone thinks that just because someone trains BJJ that they'll automatically jump guard in a street fight, which is simply not the case. A quick takedown that dunks the opponent into the floor will take him out for the fight and allow you to escape or address the situation.

So, you're saying you don't advocate jumping guard in a self defense situation, you advocate a BJJ takedown and finish?

Which BJJ takedown would you recommend for self defense in the real world?

More specifically which BJJ takedown would you recommend for a correction officer on duty inside the prison system?

What percentage of your daily training is based on this type of response?

What percentage of your daily training includes training while while both you and your opponent are standing up?

What percentage of your training involves practicing takedowns on the sidewalk and concrete?

What percentage involves an armed opponent?

What percentage involves multiple opponents?

What percentage involves one attacker, unarmed, already on the floor, who will not be striking during the training?

What percentage of your daily training focuses on remaining on your feet as the response to an attack?

Now ask yourself what percentage of recorded SD cases or in this case corrections officer duty your training prepares you for.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Which BJJ takedown would you recommend for self defense in the real world?

More specifically which BJJ takedown would you recommend for a correction officer on duty inside the prison system?

Different for every situation. Putting myself into the situation of a correction officer on duty, there's definitely not enough information to determine how I'd react. What's happening? Do I have time to pull out a baton or taser? Do I have a gun? A situation described on the internet is too vague to have a simple answer.

What percentage of your daily training is based on this type of response?

What percentage of your daily training includes training while while both you and your opponent are your standing up?

None of my training is based on defending myself in that specific type of environment. I train to be as good in all areas of hand to hand combat as possible. I don't train with a weapon or to defend a weapon. I feel that when someone has a weapon, you either better improvise and find one too or you're pretty much SOL.

(On a side note this reminds me of a story one of my training partners just told me. He was walking home from a club when a large fellow asked him for a couple bucks. My friend declined and the fellow pulled out a knife and asked for his wallet. My friend responded by throwing a high kick that knocked the guy to the ground and dropping the knife. My friend got on top of him and started pounding oh the guy, all the while the guy that tried to mug hiim was trying to bite him from the bottom. In the end my friend beat on him until he got tired and went to the nearest hospital to treat his bite wounds. This story pertains to none of this, just thought I'd share lol ).

What percentage of your training involves practicing takedowns on the sidewalk and concrete?

What percentage involves an armed opponent?

What percentage involves multiple opponents?

None of my training practices takedowns on sidewalk or concrete, that is just absurd. I'm sure you don't practice gun defense with a live gun and your partner trying to shoot you for real. The risk of injury is too high.

The other two notes were answered in previous paragrpah.

What percentage involves one attacker, unarmed, already on the floor, who will not be striking during the training?

What percentage of your daily training focuses on remaining on your feet as the response to an attack?

Now ask yourself what percentage of recorded SD cases or in this case corrections officer duty your training prepares you for.

Actually I've done training in both, although the attacker is always unarmed. I'm not too positive what you're asking in the first question, is somebody not supposed to strike? We've done drills with one person on their back in guard position and the opponent standing, the drill is to have the person on bottom learn to take minimal damage while being able to stand back up to his/her feet or secure a better position. This also lets the top person work on striking a person in guard.

We've also done drills where one person has a goal of taking you down and your goal is to stay standing.

My training would probably help me to work under pressure and learn what it's like to go full contact with someone trying to take my head off.


I'm running out of time to write as I have a final to take but looking back it seems that your questions seem to assume that one individual is reserved to one art and not cross training. Why can't the individual cross train? The key to being good in all ranges of combat is to learn from everyone who specializes in each one.

[TTEscrima]

Different for every situation. Putting myself into the situation of a correction officer on duty, there's definitely not enough information to determine how I'd react. What's happening? Do I have time to pull out a baton or taser? Do I have a gun? A situation described on the internet is too vague to have a simple answer.

And here we see why I often object to the BJJ crowd pushing their preferred sport on people looking for SD.

This is a thread started by someone looking for advice for SD for a corrections officer....and here you are advocating BJJ.

When questioned about the logic and training BJJ provides for this scenario you reply with a cop out about which weapons you might have on you to rely on. Well, if you knew enough on the subject to offer advice, you'd know NONE of the things you listed "Do I have time to pull out a baton or taser? Do I have a gun?" are even possibilities for a corrections officer

So what we have here is another a case of a BJJ fan recommending it for something he hasn't got the slightest idea about.

None of my training is based on defending myself in that specific type of environment. I train to be as good in all areas of hand to hand combat as possible. I don't train with a weapon or to defend a weapon. I feel that when someone has a weapon, you either better improvise and find one too or you're pretty much SOL.

So you don't actually train with or for weapons... but you plan on finding or making one when attacked.

So how much training do you have using or making field expedient weapons? Or is this something else you have no experience with yet constitutes part of your survival plan?

None of my training practices takedowns on sidewalk or concrete, that is just absurd. I'm sure you don't practice gun defense with a live gun and your partner trying to shoot you for real. The risk of injury is too high.

So you advocate he bet his life on techniques that WILL happen on surfaces you're readily willing to admit are too dangerous for you to practice (much less use) these techniques on.

And we do practice with weapons that will fire a projectile that is capable of doing injury, we don't simply ignore the scenario because its too dangerous to actually practice what we plan on doing if attacked.

Actually I've done training in both, although the attacker is always unarmed.

The attacker is ALWAYS unarmed in your training, nuff said.

I'm not too positive what you're asking in the first question, is somebody not supposed to strike?

You're dodging the question because you don't want to answer it.

What percentage of your bjj classes include striking? I've never seen a BJJ class that incorporated striking as a NORMAL part of every training session, but everyone I've seen has prohibitions on striking during training.

I'm running out of time to write as I have a final to take but looking back it seems that your questions seem to assume that one individual is reserved to one art and not cross training. Why can't the individual cross train? The key to being good in all ranges of combat is to learn from everyone who specializes in each one.

Well, you came in and recommended BJJ, not crosstraining, yet we just found you didn't do any of the crosstraining in weapons etc yourself, yet you still recommended and defended BJJ as viable for a corrections officer....and you recommended he INITIATE the groundfight by taking his opponent down. Plain and simple (and in your own words) you advocated a corrections officer intentionally go for the takedown which in his world is essentially suicide, nice job.

Ive never met a group of people so determined to push their own ideas on others as the BJJ crowd, the fact that they give advice on everything from Military combatives to police/corrections work all without having the slightest idea of what they entail says it all.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

And here we see why I often object to the BJJ crowd pushing their preferred sport on people looking for SD.

This is a thread started by someone looking for advice for SD for a corrections officer....and here you are advocating BJJ.

When questioned about the logic and training BJJ provides for this scenario you reply with a cop out about which weapons you might have on you to rely on. Well, if you knew enough on the subject to offer advice, you'd know NONE of the things you listed "Do I have time to pull out a baton or taser? Do I have a gun?" are even possibilities for a corrections officer

So what we have here is another a case of a BJJ fan recommending it for something he hasn't got the slightest idea about.

You look in my name and assume that's all I do. I cross train in other disciplines as well. Every situation and scenario is going to be different. To say that you'll never have time to pull out a defense mechanism is absurd to say the least, hell why even have the weapon in the first place then? When I advocate BJJ for self defense, not once did I say that that should be the only Martial Art you do. Taking the situation of the corrections officer. Even if there were more than one person involved, wouldn't it be better to be versed in the ground so that you could defend yourself as much as possible so that you could get back to your feet?

So you don't actually train with or for weapons... but you plan on finding or making one when attacked.

So how much training do you have using or making field expedient weapons? Or is this something else you have no experience with yet constitutes part of your survival plan?

Yes. If the other guy has a weapon, even if I am trained to defend against it, I'd much rather find an equalizer than rely on my own hands to defend against that weapon.

How much training have I had in grabbing makeshift weapons? None. I train unarmed hand to hand combat. Would I try to find anything on the ground or in the environment to use as an equalizer to a weapon? If running wasn't an option? Hell yes I would.

So you advocate he bet his life on techniques that WILL happen on surfaces you're readily willing to admit are too dangerous for you to practice (much less use) these techniques on.

And we do practice with weapons that will fire a projectile that is capable of doing injury, we don't simply ignore the scenario because its too dangerous to actually practice what we plan on doing if attacked.

A few scrapes and bruises are a short price to pay when in a self defense scenario. However, there's no need to unnecessarily subject yourself to serious injury on an everyday basis. Even Flying Trapeze people in the Circus practice with a safety net.

You're dodging the question because you don't want to answer it.

What percentage of your bjj classes include striking? I've never seen a BJJ class that incorporated striking as a NORMAL part of every training session, but everyone I've seen has prohibitions on striking during training.

I get the feeling you're making this a rather heated argument. Don't assume I'm dodging the question. You worded it rather peculiarly so I had to ask. I train Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing, MMA, Judo, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Our MMA coach has us do these drills because they occur often in MMA.

Well, you came in and recommended BJJ, not crosstraining, yet we just found you didn't do any of the crosstraining in weapons etc yourself, yet you still recommended and defended BJJ as viable for a corrections officer....and you recommended he INITIATE the groundfight by taking his opponent down. Plain and simple (and in your own words) you advocated a corrections officer intentionally go for the takedown.

Correct me if I"m wrong but I'm pretty sure I didn't say "only do BJJ" in my original post. I said something along the lines of "BJJ covers an important aspect of a fight." Why the hell would it not be viable? Who said that the corrections officer HAD to take the opponent down? I did not recommend he initiate the ground fight, I merely provided an example of what might a BJJer do in a situation instead of the age old myth of them jumping guard.

[TTEscrima]

You look in my name and assume that's all I do. I cross train in other disciplines as well. Every situation and scenario is going to be different. To say that you'll never have time to pull out a defense mechanism is absurd to say the least, hell why even have the weapon in the first place then?

This has nothing to do with your screenname and everything to do with your posted advice.

You're trying to change the subject, this was a thread about BJJ for corrections officers. Where you advocated he go for the takedown. Then you tried to weasel out by claiming which takedown you would use depended on his gun, taser or baton.

I get the feeling you're making this a rather heated argument. Don't assume I'm dodging the question. You worded it rather peculiarly so I had to ask. I train Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing, MMA, Judo, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Our MMA coach has us do these drills because they occur often in MMA.

So now it's not just BJJ you recommend, but the entire MMA curriculum, which still ignores the fact you're always outnumbered and unarmed, two things MMA doesn't even bother to address.

Correct me if I"m wrong but I'm pretty sure I didn't say "only do BJJ" in my original post. I said something along the lines of "BJJ covers an important aspect of a fight." Why the hell would it not be viable? Who said that the corrections officer HAD to take the opponent down? I did not recommend he initiate the ground fight, I merely provided an example of what might a BJJer do in a situation instead of the age old myth of them jumping guard.

You didn't mention crosstraining at all until I asked you to detail ONE freakin aspect of BJJ that applied to a corrections officers SD training that BJJ provided that he couldn't get elsewhere.

No matter how much you wiggle you still recommended a corrections officer go for the takedown...you won't find a single corrections officer anywhere who will agree with you that he ought to ever seek a BJJ takedown on an inmate.

But just for fun, since you clearly advocated for BJJ for corrections officers and now you claim he didn't have to use a takedown (although thats EXACTLY what you recommended in your first post), which stand up BJJ techniques do you recommend for a corrections officer?

[Bjjexpertise@be]

This has nothing to do with your screenname and everything to do with your posted advice.

You're trying to change the subject, this was a thread about BJJ for corrections officers. Where you advocated he go for the takedown. Then you tried to weasel out by claiming which takedown you would use depended on his gun, taser or baton.

Lol oh please. I provided an example to expel a myth and that was all to it. As for claiming what would I use depending on the situation, call it as you will, it's apparent that you refuse it to from any other angle than yours so it's a dead argument. Call it a cop out, or weaseling out, if you will.

So now it's not just BJJ you recommend, but the entire MMA curriculum, which still ignores the fact you're always outnumbered and unarmed, two things MMA doesn't even bother to address.

You asked me what part of my curriculum did that and I told you, that was all.

You didn't mention crosstraining at all until I asked you to detail ONE freakin aspect of BJJ that applied to a corrections officers SD training that BJJ provided that he couldn't get elsewhere.

No matter how much you wiggle you still recommended a corrections officer go for the takedown...you won't find a single corrections officer anywhere who will agree with you that he ought to ever seek a BJJ takedown on an inmate.

But just for fun, since you clearly advocated for BJJ for corrections officers and now you claim he didn't have to use a takedown, which stand up BJJ techniques do you recommend for a corrections officer?

I had an opinion to share and you go ahead and make it sound like I'm advocating for kids to play on the highway. I mentioned that BJJ covered an aspect of a fight that others would be hardpressed to cover. So who better to learn it from than them?
Like I said, I provided a random example to expel a myth and now you make it sound like I"m trying to advocate correction officers to do flying armbars on inmates.
Just to tickle your fancy, lets say throws.

[TTEscrima]

Just to tickle your fancy, lets say throws.

Please name some traditional BJJ throws. Even better show me a BJJ practitioner execute one of these BJJ throws and remain standing in an MMA match since thats the format/"proving grounds" from which you all have decided its so awesome for the battlefield and prisons.

[Bjjexpertise@be]

Please name some traditional BJJ throws. Even better show me a BJJ practitioner execute one of these BJJ throws and remain standing in an MMA match since thats the format/"proving grounds" from which you all have decided its so awesome for the battlefield and prisons.

Harai Goshi, Uchi Mata, Hane Goshi, O-Goshi, KouchiGari, Ouchi Gari, Ippon/Morote Seoinage, etc. BJJ curriculum teaches Judo and Wrestling takedowns, FYI.
"You all?" Who's "You all?" If you're assuming that all people who train in MMA have the same exact opinions on everything then I'll have to say you're wrong. For you to assume that is like me assuming that all Traditional Martial Artists are like Bruce Downey.

[TTEscrima]

Harai Goshi,

That's Judo.

Uchi Mata,

Also Judo.

Hane Goshi,

Also Judo.

O-Goshi,

more Judo

KouchiGari,

uh, more Judo.

Ouchi Gari,

still listing Judo...

Ippon/Morote Seoinage,

and, wait for it...more Judo

Hahahahahahaha It doesn't appear much of BJJ is applicable to a prison guards needed skill set does it? Seems to me you should have advocated a traditional martial art, perhaps, I dunno.... JUDO?