It ain't over till Florida is counted

[Tony10]

I don't think of him as a liberal so much as progressive, but I hear you.

RE: The stuff in St. Louis... that doesn't surprise me at all, unfortunately.

Keep your eye on Florida, 'cause since everybody knows it's all at stake there, any and ALL means will be used. Could get very seriously ugly...

[Rabbit]

You are not absolved from some part of the responsibility.

Nader voters knew that this election was absolutely neck and neck, and that if they had voted for Gore at least they could have assured themselves that they would have some representation for the issues they cared about, but instead chose to tilt at windmills. In this case they didn't even seem to make to the blade.(less than 5%)

Even more, you bought the line that "there isn't a dime's worth of difference" which is obviously not the case.

Of course the 50% who didn't vote are partially to blame, but everyone knew that 50% probably wouldn't, and didn't take that into consideration.

Clinton may have crushed Bush, but that is a moot point. Gore is not Clinton, and that is why he needed all the votes possible.

Bottom line: A vote for Nader was a vote for Bush. It could allow some of the things the Greens don't want to happen come to fruition. It's like trying to cure the disease by killing the patient. Possibly sacrificing everything for getting back nothing. And given that Nader didn't reach 5%, it really is nothing.

[Mickey Finn]

I don’t know. The House and the Senate are pretty evenly split with moderates on both sides of the isle. I don’t see any sweeping changes other than the possible exception of Bush’s boys being appointed to the Supreme Court. (Shudder)

I see gridlock and more things staying the same rather than changing, regardless of who wins this thing. And that ain’t necessarily a bad thing.

[Tony10]

I don't think so, Rabbit. Blame people who VOTE for Bush for Bush. Then blame that 50% who didn't vote; they sure would have had a lot more impact than that 2% that voted for Nader.


BTW, because I'm sick of arguing this, Illinois wasn't a swing state. Gore had it in the bag here and we knew that.

[Edited by Tony10 on 11-08-2000 at 01:01 PM]

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
I'm furious about the motions filed by the Republicans to close the polls on schedule in Missiouri (St. Louis to be exact) before everyone had a chance to vote. They deliberately made an attempt to block democracy from functioning.

I don’t understand the logic. Everyone knew when the polls closed. It was predetermined. Everyone was dealing the same deadline. Then you want to come in and change it in the middle of an election? BS. That’s like having money on a losing football team and after the clock expires you decide your guys need an extra hour to play. You don’t change the rules in the middle of a game/election.

[Mickey Finn]

Tony is feeling guilty because he may have cost Gore the election. Nice going Tony.

[nhb_wanabe]

you can kiss my ass.

I never have voted repulicrat (in 13 years of voting) and I never will.

there is nothing progressive about conscienceless corporations making public policy which is all Gore is.

If it needs to get a whole lot worse before it gets better then that's fine with me.

bring it on. The sooner it gets bad the bigger the backlash.

Oh yeah, you'd better bring a good flak jacket you come looking for me, cause my .45 will knock your ass down regardless.

I campaigned hard in the Tampa bay area for Nader and am proud to say that 26% of Florida's Nader votes came from my neighborhood.

Yeah, we screwed Gore good. That's what you get for being a sell-out.

[Edited by nhb_wanabe on 11-08-2000 at 01:11 PM]

[Rabbit]

What type of choice is it to vote for the lesser of two evils?

The right one.

Do you really think Gore would have gotten even half of the vote if he advocated half of what Nader does? He represented the issues that people like me hold most important, but I'll be the first to admit that he wasn't perfect.

Bush voters are Bush voters. They may have liberal leanings, but you must accept that they are to the right.

However, many Nader voters are Democrats that wanted a more liberal canidate. Hell, I want a more liberal candidate. Like I've said before, they knew that their action could and probably has elected the conservative one. Such is why I didn't let my liberal tendencies get the best of me. I know that this was not fight to pick.

The 50% is of course anonfactor in this election, but if the 67% of the 4% of Nader voters who said they would have voted for Gore, did, then for four years we could've kept some of the policies that they would actually like.

Don't call me a moron pally, or I'll be alot less cordial.

[Atomic]

And the fact that Gore was more liberal probably cost him the election and the fact he wasn't liberal enough (for OR and a few other places) cost him votes there.

Clinton was more center than Gore's stance and that really helped Clinton in the last elections, combined with his talk of free trade. I don't know why Gore didn't jump at this and a few other things instead of using the stance he did.

I'll say it again, as have many Nader supporters on CNN--Nader is very idealistic and he could be, given he had no chance to win. That's the only reason people liked his stance and there's probably no chance in hell his ideas would pass. Clinton tried universal health care and had to abandon that road due to politics.

Atomic

[Rabbit]

So by making things worse, we'll be making things better? What type of logic is this?

Furthermore, how delusional is it to think that Gore voters are sell outs? We went out to pick what would be the best thing for the country. Sometimes something must be conceded when it is lost. Either way it went "big business" would have their say, and they always will. The Nader Candidacy was a lost cause. Which would you rather have? The 3 or so % of the vote go to Nader, or for things to more to the right.

Yes, you probably have screwed Gore. Keep in Mind you also f*cked yourself over royally as well.

I'm secure in the fact that Nader won't get dick in matching funds when he runs again. Not reaching 5% is the equivalent of some weenie in gym class not doing one pull up.

[nhb_wanabe]

yeah you're right.

it always will so just accept it.

yeah its wrong but just accept it.

slavery is wrong, but just accept it.

dim mak death touch is wrong, but just accept it.

Can't argue with that "logic".

[Masala]

Umm Mickey,

there was a much heavier turnout than expected, resulting in long ass lines. Are you gonna turn someone away who has been waiting in line for 2 hours to vote, because it's 7pm? I guess when we have double the population that we have now it should be like Combat Voting...fight your way in to get your chance to vote before the polls close lol.

The Nader issue is moot, because Gore got 250,000 more people to vote for him than Bush. THis is a travesty of justice.

[Tony10]

This is the last I'm going to say on this, because we're going around in circles.

I didn't call you a moron, Rabbit.

BTW, I don't criticize you for voting for Gore, especially compared to Bush.

You keep conjuring up facts and figures saying that I am somehow to blame for Bush by voting for Nader, using the assumption that there's only ever going to be two choices and to not accept that is chasing windmills.

If I accept that, than there's only GOING to ever be two choices. Just because everybody's been brainwashed that unless a candidate has the elephant or donkey good housekeeping stamp of approval, they're not viable, or they're "fringe" or they're "liberal" doesn't mean that I have to go along with the herd and get corralled into stall #1 or #2.

It is this mentality that GETS us people like Dubya and Gore, lesser candidates and surely lesser minds who nevertheless survive only because they've been ordained by their respective corporate toady political parties.

John McCain shared a lot of Nader-like views yet he was undone not by an electorate with whom he didn't adequately connect, he was undone by Dubya's Dollars. And away with him went that pesky campaign finance reform idea.

Here we are in a country which was FORMED in rebellion to having to follow the king's wishes, and yet you chastise me for not selecting This Year's Model, plopped in front of me by groups that have absolutely no overriding interest except perpetuating their own existence by selling out huge chunks of our democratic process to lobbyists with fat checkbooks while I concur with that by selecting the lesser sellout because that is just "the way it's ever going to be done."

Well, I reject that, my man. Unforunately, many of the other people--the majority--also in the Matrix are duped every election into this False Choice, and as a result nothing ever, ever changes.

My job as a voter isn't to protect people in this country from themselves, it is just what it is: my choice on who should run things. Just as you've been selfishly doing math to suggest how I could have helped your guy--despite my wishes and MY vote--I was hoping that 5% figure would materialize. So what if it didn't? So now because it didn't you're criticizing me? If we all listened to you, it wouldn't have even been 2%!

Get this through your head: if Gore had been a better candidate, if Gore had better made people understand why he'd be better than Bush, if Gore were more in tune to what this country's voters want, Nader would have never made a difference. Period. An incumbent vice president in good economic times should have crushed Dubya. But he didn't, and BECAUSE he couldn't get it together, all of a sudden Nader's a factor. It should have never been close.

And labeling the Nader crowd the liberal left doesn't really fit either. How about the no-bulls*** middle who's tired of these two tired circuses expecting us to get excited over their respective clowns?

If everybody keeps relying on those two choices, Rabbit, that's all we'll ever get. It's gotta start somewhere. Call it windmill chasing all you want, but again: I guess there's a windmill on top of the Minnesota Governor's mansion, then...

[Edited by Tony10 on 11-08-2000 at 02:19 PM]

[nhb_wanabe]

moron?

damn right Tony10.

and Rabbit, if you can't see the forest for the trees, maybe that's because you're ARE a moron.

Only a FRICKIN MORON would exult in the greens not getting 5% and moving our democracy forward.

but like Manco said about arguing with idiots...

[Mickey Finn]

Originally posted by Masala
...it should be like Combat Voting...fight your way in to get your chance to vote before the polls close lol.

I like it. Survival of the fittest. Only the strongest and most aggressive voters are able to contribute to the gene pool…. I mean vote.

Seriously though, if the lines were truly that long, I’ll go this far. Anyone in line at their polling place before closing time should be allowed to vote. After 7 the end of the line closes. Anyone who can’t get their shit together to get in line before 7 pm doesn’t deserve to vote. If they knew they had a problem they could use an absentee ballot. Looking at losing a close race, and then deciding to try and keep the polls open EXTRA hours so you can get on the phones and put on the full court press is plain BS. That’s changing the rules in the middle of the game.