Terrible Technique

[Thai Bri]

I never headr that Master's Ken and Toddy were TKD specialists? They came over to Britain straight from Thailand about 25 years ago. There wasn't any TKD influence at all, unless I am very wrong (it has to happen one day).

[S.Anucha]

I never headr that Master's Ken and Toddy were TKD specialists? They came over to Britain straight from Thailand about 25 years ago. There wasn't any TKD influence at all, unless I am very wrong (it has to happen one day).

they do have TKD training, specialist as in stylist. Yeah Master Skenand Toddy both have TKD training. In fact I believe that a lot of Thais in Bangkok particularly train in TKD as well as Muay thai.

Dude maybe the shite I read was bull but i dont think it was. But Sken has been 25 years in Muay Thai now and Toddy I think 20, they are now Muay Thai through and through.

[Thai Bri]

You may be right. I havent seen anything like that. Toddy came over longer than 20 years ago though. Probably about the same time as Ken. And they were both near to my home town! I was too stupid to see what was on my doorstep, preferring to take Shukokai Karate instead.

What a twat.

[bvermillion]

For the fifty thousandth time I am not trying to bad mouth mt like you guys are insisting. I am just trying to find out exactly why you don't use the forementioned moves. If you say they are low percentage moves tell me what about that move makes it low percentage. There was an article in Black Belt a while back that discussed WOO. Which is window of oppurtunity which is sort of like this a jab has a bigger window of oppurtunity where as a spinning heel kick has a low window of oppurtunity. All techniques do have a window of oppurtunity you just have to realize when that oppurtunity is. As far as the moves I mentioned before, excluding the open handed techniques, they all have a decent window of oppurtunity. You can use crescent kicks to knock someones guard down. You can use an axe kick for many things it is an extremely powerful technique if you just make contact there gonna feel it I dont care where you hit. A hook kick is probably my favorite technique, you can use it to knock there guard down, my favorite way to use it is to fake high with a round kick then hook them in the ribs. Those are just a few practical ways to use some of the techniques I mentioned.

[gregimotis]

Two things that Thai boxers like to do are: Close distance and clinch (knee range) and kick to the thighs. Given that we (thai boxers) are good at those two things, you might see why we view many kicks as 'low percentage'.

Kicks like the side kick or the hook kick (in my limited exp.) require that the kicker stand fairly sideways to the oponent. This sideways stance exposes the back of your lead leg to heavy kicks which will over time wear that leg out. I Thai boxers will try to circle behind your sidekick, or will try to counter kick as your leg comes down. This is one reason why, to a Thai boxer, side stance kicks are risky.
Consider now the clinch... One of the reasons Thai boxers fight with their hands outstretched is so they are in a ready position to come forward and grab the opponents neck. Some kicks, like the crescent kick (I think this comes from the outside, right) expose the throwers body for a jump and grab. Also ridge hand strikes that aren't tight and wild hooks have the same effect.
Lastly, TB'ers like the cut kick as a counter to many kicks. Round kicks and crescent kicks particularly allow a fast MT fighter to step 45* into the thrower and kick his standing leg.

I think these are some of the reasons Thai boxers avoid variety in kicking. They have learned from hard exp. not to expose their lead legs, nor to open up enough to get charged, and they have all had thier standing legs hacked out from under them and landed on thier butts.

Keep in mind though, that many MT people do use other kicks sometimes. The back kick (whatever it's called, back spinning side kick) hits hard enough to make it worth practicing and the side kick has it's moments also. I'm sure a strong TKD guy with a fast side kick and some experience with MT fighters could use it to advantage... I just haven't seen it ( As I've said, I don't have much exp. with TKD, just MT)

[papa]

hahaha

This thread is such a joke (pun intended). Why do u think there are no TKD MMA fighters? Because TKD is all weak technique that focuses on flashy kicks that have absoloutely no street value. And i know from experience because i took TKD for 4 years. Even if a TKD fighter with a MT training style (meaning cardio work) fought a MT fighter with a TKD training style the MT fighter would own him.
The TKD stance is weak in the first place and they have absoloutely no clinch work. I know u mentioned the clinch in your post but every fight ends up in a clinch.
Theres a lot more to kicking then flashy kicks. Just because a kick looks good, it doesnt mean it is good. Look at the round house. It's like hitting someone with a baseball bat. TKD its mainly snapping and hook kicks which which are slow and you can see them coming a mile away.
So in the end when an MT fighter and a TKD fighter go at it, either in the ring, or on the street, the MT fighter will come out on top. And i can tell you what is going to happen. The TKD fighter is going the try to do some spin that looks like cracked out ballet and the MT fighter is going to kick out his support leg like its nothing and then bury him. Period.

The only place flashy kicks work are on Walker Texas Ranger.
yea you can quote me on that.

later
Papa

[Nick1_S]

I did see a written interview once with Master Sken and he said he learnt TKD to be a more complete fighter. He would then be confident he could fight against any standing style. This is on the net somewhere. If I find it I will post it. Do you think this is why his style is quite flashy - high kicks, etc. Has he integrated a bit of TKD mentality or is that simply the Thai style HE knows, from his region? If I can remember rightly, he was challenged by a judoka at some point. He went to grab him and Sken whipped in a low kick and downed him. Dont know if this is true but hey I would like to believe it! Not sure about Toddy training TKD though.

Both arts have entirely different philosphies in my opinion. Thaiboxing is hard and destructive. Its weapons are developed to 'wear' an opponent down by sheer power and battering. Therefore they are low risk, functional moves. Whenever a Thai stylist delivers a blow, they usually follow directly with a cover. Its like, this is a fight. Im gonna smack you, but then you are surely gonna smack be back so I had better gaurd up or move. Its not like Karate (not sure about TKD here), which in my opinion assumes too much. I will strike you and then you will fall. What if it glances? Even if it does land, will it down an opponent? Dont just stand there open. Thaiboxing assumes none of this. In fact it assumes worst case which is damn practical. Guard up round the head so you cant get knocked out and condition the rest of your body to absorb the punishment. Sounds like a good tactic to me

Saying this, its strength is also its weakness. Nothing in this world is perfect and there is always pro's and con's. By sticking to the basics, the Thai art does not take many risks. Not much spinning stuff because this is high risk. If you miss you are left open, and you probably will miss anyway. BUT..... Spinning stuff can work, and when it does I have seen ppl knocked out. So never right it off. Karate and TKD seems to have this risky, flighty sort of pattern to it. Does not do a lot of damage or wearing down like the Thai stuff but is perfectly capable of putting you down if one gets through. Was there some guy from Honour TKD that put down a Thai with a spin kick. Ever seen Champeuk (spelling?) vs Manson Gibson? Champeuk was, get this, knocked out with a spin kick to the midsection! Then, again on mikemiles.com, Champeuk is knocked down badly by (Thompson??) in one of the clips. Apparently he suffered internal damage. This is a Thai legend with 100's of fights!!

Now lets get this in perspective. I have just given a few examples of a Thai being knocked out by an untypical spinning move. When you consider the statistics, this does not happen often. But it can work, even though the risk of it is very small. Some ppl, have got those spinning techniques off very well. They are very fast, extremely powerful and they can pull them off again and again. But these are very rare, HIGHLY talented induviduals. They are simply not practical for 99.9% of us.

Saw one fight once with Sakmongol in an 8 man tournement. This guy is pure class in my opinion. He battered up most of the guys but came to fight in the semi I think, and the guy he fought (I am useless with names as you can tell)was using loads of spinning stuff in the previous fights. Sakmongkol was very cautious in the first round. He was not fighting like he seemed comfortable. He was clearly giving this unorthodox fighter loads of respect. In the second Sak downed him big time with a short right , but was probably one of only a few moves he landed. If not for this the fight could have gone iethe way, but just thought it interesting to note how a top Thai fighter responded to this type of offense.

[S.Anucha]

Thai fighting style is simply this, well at least the style I am taught.

It is what works, it is what is easy to do, it is what KO's! it is all about power.

Muay Thai kicks are at all heights, legs, waist, head/neck. Its the way they deliver that makes them different, no kick is ever snapped in Muay Thai, why? because why snap a kick when you can either KO or paraylise with a devastating roundhouse? snap kicks dont do much damage and only waste time. All Thai kicks are aiming way past the target, you kick through never snap, a front side kick is not practical in a fight so is rarely ever done, IF EVER, in a fight. Kickboxers do this kick that is how you can tell a kickboxer from a Thaiboxer when both seem to be fighting Muay Thai. Spining heel kicks are great and are occasionaly done but you must consider timing, and speed, it must be done so quick that "he" doesnt see it coming! that is hard so is often left for the very good.

Thaiboxing is about fighting not flash, if you are good at thaiboxing you can look very graceful and powerful. Its not about looking good its about what works.

Sken is kicking thai style but he has very good fexability.

[SOUTHPAW]

MuayThai's weak techniques!!!

Hey, this is for the guy that said TKD had it all over MuayThai (if the conditioning aspect were equal)....that's a bunck of BS!!!! I remember the 1988 Olympic games in Seoul and I got to see TKD as an exhibition sport. Those guys were pretty shitty and I remember thinking that anyone of the Olympic boxers would have no problem in kicking their asses. Fast forward 15 years and I am now involved in MT...a tough and brutal ring sport (like western boxing) and I still think we would have wiped up the canvas with those TKD guys, not so with some of the MT boxers that I know and train with these days. Just my humble opinion based on my own observations...but valid I think.

[Nick1_S]

All those snap kicks in other martial arts are no comparison with the power of the Thai roundhouse. Do think they take a little longer to load up though, but maybe thats just me! You could probably take those kicks up and down the body all day if you are used to the Thai kicks. However, you dont need that much power to knock someone out do you? (If landed correctly) So I would say the only danger those kicks posses is if they land on your head/chin.
I once fought someone from a karate background under limited rules. Just to get some experience. He did not hurt me much and I went at his legs big time which he did not like at all. However towards the end of the round, with me getting tired and a bit lazy (lack of experience), he sent up a lead leg karate style kick to my chin. That took me by suprise in a big way. I saw stars for a bit and became much more aware for the rest of the fight. I am sure if he had kicked me Thai style to my open face it would have been lights out! But I would not say that he needed much more in that karate kick of his as it landed flush on my chin.

Have you seen the Sanda vs MT matches? Those guys continually use those side snap kicks to push off the Thais. They do this in defense every time the Thai comes in to kick/punch. Dont think they do much damage to the Thais, but must be really annoying to deal with. Probably better for them to push them off than stand there and trade toe to toe coz the Thais would win this game. But from perspective of the Sanda fighters, the techique works as a defence strategy, so I would give it that much.

Also saw some Thai taking a beating in a Kyokoshin match once. The rules were no head punches I believe. The Thai guy was whipping in low leg kicks when catching the karate fighters high kicks but he just shrugged it off. He must have been very well conditioned to take those kicks. The Thai appeared a little perplexed by what was happening to him. The karate guy was blasting up kicks so fast when the Thai moved his guard a bit. Lacked the power to knock him down though but the Thai did look out of his element. Even saw the kyokushin fighter land a knee on the Thai, which is supposed to be the Thais game!!

So dont shrug off the high kicks of these other arts! If performed as intended, they can knock you down or at worst seriously mess up your game plan. But I would say this would need a high calibre fighter to do this. For most of us this is not possible.

[S.Anucha]

So dont shrug off the high kicks of these other arts! If performed as intended, they can knock you down or at worst seriously mess up your game plan. But I would say this would need a high calibre fighter to do this. For most of us this is not possible.

no one is knocking their high kicks, I just said that the Thai style of fighting is about using what is powerful and works best, it just so happens that a roundhouse when trained well and delivered with Thai style is very effective and lightening fast..... were the hell did you hear that they are slow? do you think whipping 10 full power kicks, not snap kicks but full power roundhouse kicks in less than 6 seconds is slow?

Teep push kick is used the same as the Sanshou guys using their side kick. only you aint turning side on.

Those karate guys are tough, the kyukoshin guys, they are conditioned well and also I think karate use elbows and knees too, knees and elbows aint just a Thai thing

[Nick1_S]

Ok, just have always felt they were a bit slower compared with snap kicks just b/c you never get something for nothing. Usually those snap kicks are lifted straight up without the step in first. Therefore no momentum behind them from the step to the side. Maybe I am wrong here, I am really not experienced in any other standing style.

About your kicking prowess, I geuss it depends on the fighter. I have huge legs, sometimes I wish I did not. It takes a lot to get them moving but then again you better get out the way when they come So I find most kicks slower and have to work on disguising them.

[eXcessiveForce]

Okay here is the article on Master Toddy and TKD.

It is from a magazine I picked up a long time ago.

The magazine details are

IKF presents
Complete Guide to Kicking & Stretching
December 1993


The article is
The Logic of the Leg kicks By Jane Hallander
Pictured are Master Toddy, John Hielsen and Bob Chaney
Page 5

"At age 13, he (Master Toddy) joined the first Tae kwon Do school in Bangkok. One year later Toddy had his black belt and had followed the Tae kwon do master, as his assistant, to Ootapau, thailand....
During his time in Ootapau, Toddy discovered the advantages of combining Tae kwon do techniques and principles of Muay Thai. He still follows that formula, requiring his own fighters to learn several years of Tae kwon do at his training center, before they enter a boxing ring.


If you all are real nice and I can figure out how I may scan the article and try to post it.

[bvermillion]

This thread is such a joke (pun intended). Why do u think there are no TKD MMA fighters? Because TKD is all weak technique that focuses on flashy kicks that have absoloutely no street value. And i know from experience because i took TKD for 4 years. Even if a TKD fighter with a MT training style (meaning cardio work) fought a MT fighter with a TKD training style the MT fighter would own him.
The TKD stance is weak in the first place and they have absoloutely no clinch work. I know u mentioned the clinch in your post but every fight ends up in a clinch.
Theres a lot more to kicking then flashy kicks. Just because a kick looks good, it doesnt mean it is good. Look at the round house. It's like hitting someone with a baseball bat. TKD its mainly snapping and hook kicks which which are slow and you can see them coming a mile away.
So in the end when an MT fighter and a TKD fighter go at it, either in the ring, or on the street, the MT fighter will come out on top. And i can tell you what is going to happen. The TKD fighter is going the try to do some spin that looks like cracked out ballet and the MT fighter is going to kick out his support leg like its nothing and then bury him. Period.

The only place flashy kicks work are on Walker Texas Ranger.
yea you can quote me on that.

later
Papa

Dude you are so far off and obvisouly didn't even read all the posts. I am not even going to dignify that crap with a response

[bvermillion]

I did see a written interview once with Master Sken and he said he learnt TKD to be a more complete fighter. He would then be confident he could fight against any standing style. This is on the net somewhere. If I find it I will post it. Do you think this is why his style is quite flashy - high kicks, etc. Has he integrated a bit of TKD mentality or is that simply the Thai style HE knows, from his region? If I can remember rightly, he was challenged by a judoka at some point. He went to grab him and Sken whipped in a low kick and downed him. Dont know if this is true but hey I would like to believe it! Not sure about Toddy training TKD though.

Both arts have entirely different philosphies in my opinion. Thaiboxing is hard and destructive. Its weapons are developed to 'wear' an opponent down by sheer power and battering. Therefore they are low risk, functional moves. Whenever a Thai stylist delivers a blow, they usually follow directly with a cover. Its like, this is a fight. Im gonna smack you, but then you are surely gonna smack be back so I had better gaurd up or move. Its not like Karate (not sure about TKD here), which in my opinion assumes too much. I will strike you and then you will fall. What if it glances? Even if it does land, will it down an opponent? Dont just stand there open. Thaiboxing assumes none of this. In fact it assumes worst case which is damn practical. Guard up round the head so you cant get knocked out and condition the rest of your body to absorb the punishment. Sounds like a good tactic to me

Saying this, its strength is also its weakness. Nothing in this world is perfect and there is always pro's and con's. By sticking to the basics, the Thai art does not take many risks. Not much spinning stuff because this is high risk. If you miss you are left open, and you probably will miss anyway. BUT..... Spinning stuff can work, and when it does I have seen ppl knocked out. So never right it off. Karate and TKD seems to have this risky, flighty sort of pattern to it. Does not do a lot of damage or wearing down like the Thai stuff but is perfectly capable of putting you down if one gets through. Was there some guy from Honour TKD that put down a Thai with a spin kick. Ever seen Champeuk (spelling?) vs Manson Gibson? Champeuk was, get this, knocked out with a spin kick to the midsection! Then, again on mikemiles.com, Champeuk is knocked down badly by (Thompson??) in one of the clips. Apparently he suffered internal damage. This is a Thai legend with 100's of fights!!

Now lets get this in perspective. I have just given a few examples of a Thai being knocked out by an untypical spinning move. When you consider the statistics, this does not happen often. But it can work, even though the risk of it is very small. Some ppl, have got those spinning techniques off very well. They are very fast, extremely powerful and they can pull them off again and again. But these are very rare, HIGHLY talented induviduals. They are simply not practical for 99.9% of us.

Saw one fight once with Sakmongol in an 8 man tournement. This guy is pure class in my opinion. He battered up most of the guys but came to fight in the semi I think, and the guy he fought (I am useless with names as you can tell)was using loads of spinning stuff in the previous fights. Sakmongkol was very cautious in the first round. He was not fighting like he seemed comfortable. He was clearly giving this unorthodox fighter loads of respect. In the second Sak downed him big time with a short right , but was probably one of only a few moves he landed. If not for this the fight could have gone iethe way, but just thought it interesting to note how a top Thai fighter responded to this type of offense.

Finally someone that understood my question and actually answered it.