Terrible Technique

[bvermillion]

I know this is going to stir alot of arguments up, but I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible. I believe most Muay Thai fighters are hardcore but that is just because they train hardcore. I mean there kicks are slow. They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks. They have no open handed techniques hence the gloves. I think the only good aspect of muay thai is there training regimen. I would love to find a taekwondo school with that same hardcore approach to training. If one exists I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai but there training is severely lacking.

[Dimz18]

OK then... Why dont you look at the stats when muay thai fighter fight TKD fighters. And dont say that its the training regimen b.c im sure that TKD train just as hard b.c they want to win just as much. SO the only thing left is technique so i think you should give Muay Thai some respect.

[bvermillion]

"And dont say that its the training regimen b.c im sure that TKD train just as hard"


You obviously havent ever took taekwondo then because we don't train even to close to the intensity that even a beginner muay thai fighter does. Don't make statements if you don't know what you are talking about. I am talking about as a whole. Of course there are tkd people that train full contact and they are also the people that do good against muay thai fighters it depends on the person. The people that do muay thai as a whole train a lot harder then most tkd people.

[gregimotis]

Well, since no one else is biting...

You commpletely failed to address the MT use of the clinch, elbows, and KNEES. What is your TKD guy going to do when MT guy crashes in, grabs his neck and starts thumping knees into the ribs and body?

And... well that's all for now

[gregimotis]

Muay Thai has historically had complicated techniques, but thoses techniques were eliminated from the ring sport partly because they were 'too dangerous' and partly because they just plain didn't work well (maybe other reasons, too, I'm not an expert on the evolution). When I say didn't work well, what I mean is 'didn't work well relative to the number of hours required too make them effective'.
It's true Thai boxers don't bother with many variations of kicks, but I think is this because the Thais feel that the thai round kick and the foot jab - or 'push kick' are the most efficient kicking weapons. Why should I devote the dozens of hours of training needed to get a jump-spinning-hook-kick fast enough to use, when a round kick to the head achieves the same result with less risk and is still faster.
Arguably, the Thai round kick is somewhat slower than the TMA round kick, but it also much heavier. A lightening fast snap kick just isn't going to hurt a trained fighter much whereas a 'slow' Thai kick will. The Thai reasoning here is plain - 'why bother to throw a kick that won't do any damage?'
Then to one of the strongest aspects of Muay Thai - the clinch. The most damaging technique in the Thai arsenal is the knee. A thai can fight at punch/kick range like a TKD fighter, but whereas the TKD fighter has to maintain that range, the Thai stylist can also fight much closer with knees and elbows. If the fight is not going well from the outside (or even if it is) the Thai fighter can move into the short range and grab the opponents neck then begin throwing knees and elbows all the while twisting and pulling on the opponent in order to keep him off balance. Thai Boxers spend many hours working the clinch.
So, Thai boxers use a limited number simple techniques rather than many complicated ones. They also use their knees better than any other art I've heard of. They also train harder and fight more than any other striking art - except possibly boxing, might be a tie there.
Finally, you state that the only thing Thai boxers have on other arts is thier training regimen. I agree, thai boxers have learned that the best way to fight well is to train hard. It's not fancy kicks, or open hand techniques that make a fighter effective, it's plain old toughness and conditioning coupled with effective blocks and attacks. That conditioning is part of the art of Muay Thai and not part of the art of (TKD etc.).
Until TKD/TMA practioners start training the right way (to fight, that is), arguments about their relative effectiveness remain theoretical only. The fact is - Thai boxers consistently defeat TKD fighters where the rules allow both arts to use all techniques. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the exception does not make the rule.





As an aside - This is a response to the suggestion that Muay Thai technique is terrible, not an attack on traditional martial arts generally.

[Khun Kao]

First of all, I don't usually believe in feeding trolls.... I leave them to the hands of my Big Billy Goat Gruff, who is much larger than I....

"I belive most Muay Thai techniques are just plain terrible."

Well, opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. But, MT Techniques are 'just plain terrible' as compared to what?

"I mean there kicks are slow."

What Muay Thai have you been watching??? Are you sure it was Muay Thai? Muay Thai is based off of SPEED! Anyone who tried to tell you differently does not truly know their Muay Thai.

"They dont even bother with a lot of good kicks."

MT fighters use what works: Round Kicks & Front Kicks. Side Kicks, Back Kicks, and Hook Kicks are also included in the Muay Thai arsenal, as well as as Crescent Kicks and Snap Kicks, but these are RARELY employed because under fire they have not proven to be very combat effective. In other words, you are just as likely to get Knocked Out as to Score a Knockout.

"They have no open handed techniques hence the gloves."

Uh, no. The above should read: Sport Muay Thai uses gloves, hence no open handed techniques. Muay Thai was not born in the ring. There are PLENTY of open-handed techniques. Some of the "open-hand" techniques have been adapted to the ring anyway. Ever heard of a clinch?

"I would love to find a taekwondo school with that same hardcore approach to training. If one exists I guarantee that there are students at that school that could wipe the floor with any muay thai stylist. That doesn't just go for taekwondo either it would be the same for alot of tma's. I believe most tma's have way superior technique then muay thai but there training is severely lacking."

When you find that school, join and train with them. Then feel free to come to any one of our gyms for a friendly sparring match.

Brooks (Khun Kao)

[bvermillion]

"Until TKD/TMA practioners start training the right way (to fight, that is), arguments about their relative effectiveness remain theoretical only. The fact is - Thai boxers consistently defeat TKD fighters where the rules allow both arts to use all techniques. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the exception does not make the rule."

I am pretty sure that is what I said. As far as clinch work in the school i attend we learn alot of clinch work. But this isn't whose style is better. It is about technique. I think muay thai would be superior in a fight by theory just because they can take a hit alot better then most tkd people. Being able to take a hit is probably the most important thing in a street fight. Which goes back to your training most tma's dont train to be able to take a hit they play tag with there feet. But just as far as actual moves I believe that tma's are superior to that of mt. But in the same way they are inferior when it comes to training. The way you train determines the outcome of a fight. What you train just determines the moves you will most likely use in a fight. So thats where I draw my conclusion that if you have superior moves and insufficient training to use those moves and to take a hit then theoretically if you bring your training level up you beat the opponent. But that is just theory it will always depend on the fighter. My reason for starting this thread was just to discuss moves that arent used in mt that should or could be.

[shadowkiller]

I have to disagree with you as well. You say terrible technique, are you basing this on flashy jump kicks or what? Try using a jump kick on someone in a street fight. Tell me how you fair.

MT has thrown out all the crap that doesnt seem to work and put together a very simple, very useful fighting art. Same thing with western boxing, see how many stylists can beat a boxer with punching. Boxing is simple as well, they dont have a huge number of punches, they use what works.

And with street usefullness, MT beats most styles hands down. With only a month or two training under your belt you are allready pretty proficient in most aspects of standup. What if I was training in TKD or karate or whatever, much harder to master complex techniques from these two. Like trapping and pressure points. You cant learn these very quickly, and often unless you are very good, you will not be able to pull off a pressure point strike that will take your opponent out.

It all comes down to simplicity, the less attacks you need to learn the easier you can perfect them. MT might not be the showiest art but its one of the most usefull.

[eXcessiveForce]

I'm Going to weigh in on this although I'm not exactly sure what side of this discussion I'm on.

first I will not fault MT technique, they are effective at close range. the further out the less effective they are but that is okay, they like to close the gap and stay there. This is where their strength lies. The style is relatively simple, Knees, elbows, and a few kicks.

MT Kicks are slow to TKD people this is a fact of life. They are not deceptive and take a very large arc to their targets. This increase the time it takes to hit the target, unlike high level, (repeat HIGH LEVEL) chambered kicks.

Conditioning makes MT exceptional. MT without the Conditioning is no more effective then any other TMA. For instance if you can't block with your shin because they are soft you will likely lose to someone who has not problem sheilding with their shin. I for instance have blocked with my shins in TKD for 20 some years and it is a great advantage because most people do not like to work on building up to take a hit on the shin. People are always kicking my shins and leaving my shin unscathed and theirs a bloody mess.

My system has every technique in MT with in it. There aren't any secrets. To say that MT technique is bad begs the question "in relation to what" and "In what way"

Now, the main difference between the too is the people who take them. At this moment in time MT is not mainstream. Fighters take up MT, soccermoms and kids aren't. TKD is mainstream. It's where the money is at so soccermoms and kids are the bulk of the students. Many hardcore fighters are not willing to train with kids or moms or in a place that has too many of them because they believe this lessens the art.

I think that MT People could learn some tricks from TKD that would help them improve their skills. I also believe that TKD can take some lessons on training from MT.

Also the world has different standards for fighters. In the US. most fighters have other jobs. They have families that they support by working somewhere and they fight and train in their free time. TKD is not made up of these people. It is mostly hobby martial artists. They do not plan on stepping into the ring, they do not plan on having to fight on a consistent basis, they do not want to take injuries in training that are as severe as a street altercation.
Much of the rest of the world has fighters that do that for a living. MT is an example. they train all day, fight and get paid and feed their families from that. In so doing they elevate their prowess as fighters. The system is made up of pro fighters, the teachers are or were pro fighters and it is taught in such a way to create pro fighters. As it becomes more mainstream others with no ring experience will open schools and because of the hype of the pro fighters their schools will grow and turn out more MT people who do not fight in the ring. In 20 years MT will be a completely different animal. That is the way of things. At that point it will be the exception that great fighters are MT fighters and not the rule.

Right now someone who says they are a MT fighter is given great respect as a good fighter without much question as to their true ability. everyone assumes they train under good instructors and are on their way to be great MT fighters. But even now you have people who go to MT class once a week. train for a few hours, maybe even miss a few weeks and they claim they are fighters.
If such a person was to go against a training TKD blackbelt they would get beat. Realize I said a training TKD blackbelt. not a soccer mom. realize also there is a trend in martial arts for people to take blackbelt as a sign you have finished your training. In most systems it is a master of basics only, It is at the beginning of your true training.

If you would like to test out who is better then do it fairly. take two comparable MT fighters and Train one with some TKD material that would be of use and see if it does not improve their fights. Or take to TKD fighters and add MT and see what happens.

It's like anything can you add value. There is value in MT. There is Value in TKD you just have to know were to look.

I would ask for a better description of how MT techinque is lacking. Simple to say that it sucks is insufficient. You must explain why it sucks.

No open hands does not mean their technique sucks, it means that there are a lack of those techniques.

Lower speed power kicks does not mean the technique sucks as most of them perform those types of kicks correctly. In ATA we call the thai kick a PPCT kick or fluid shockwave kick.
The lack of higher speed higher level TKD kicks is even seen in TKD itself. It's lack of use in MT also does not mean their technique sucks. only that they have not been trained or choose not to use those types of kicks.

end rant

[Damian Mavis]

I recently posted a couple of long posts arguing against stupid attitudes people had about TKD and here I am going to do the same thing for stupid attitudes about Muay Thai.

Bvermillion, I think you can respect my opinion a little more since I am a 4th degree black belt in TKD and run a school so I hope you hear what I am saying. When I saw Muay thai on TV and when I first started training it I thought it looked messy, ugly and simple. My Kru was a 3rd degree black belt in TKD and he thought the exact same thing when he first started. Once you train and learn the differences in technique for Muay Thai you realise it's not just a kick being thrown in a haphazard fashion, it has a very distinct way of being executed and the way they do it is EXACTLY the way Muay Thai is supposed to be done. The way the hip turns, the way the knee bends, all these things need to be perfect, just like when we do turning back kick in TKD. If it isn't done right it simply isn't correct and Muay Thai is exactly the same, you are either doing their techniques the right way or the wrong way and just like TKD there are reasons to do techniques a certain way. Reasons for power, speed and safety (not injuring yourself).

Once you train muay thai you realise it is a very complex art with exact ways of doing things and so many little things to learn, and the techniques that once looked sloppy suddenly look pristine and sharp... because now you know what to look for. It's like when you get good at TKD and suddenly you can pick out the lousy technique in action movies and realise just who is an actor and who actually trains in martial arts, or you can tell when they brought in the stunt double to do a kick you know Uma Thurman couldnt do.

You are way off on saying Muay Thai is slow, and I'm surprised some people were agreeing but saying it was stronger. Neither of these are true. Muay Thai has a slow RHYTHM but when a technique is actually executed it is lightning fast (at least for the experts) If you watch an amatuer it would be like watching a green belt... it's gonna look slow. The good pro's kick as fast as any TKD kick I've ever seen and it's very scary. There are plenty of slow lower level fighters though just like in TKD. They need more training or experience but bottom line Muay Thai is no slower than TKD. The pace of a 5 round fight is slower, but the bursts of attacks are fast as TKD. TKD is usually fast the whole time because they only have 90 to 120 seconds to win.... instead of needing to go 15 minutes.

Conclusion: Muay Thai has excellent technique, not horrible technique. That is like watching Judo and criticising their technique when you havent a clue, and no offence dude but you havent a clue. I'm VERY fast with kicks, and some of these pro's I spar here are just as fast and it scares the poop out of me. It just makes me train harder. YES I do have an advantage by having a few aces up my sleeve from TKD that most of these guys do not train to defend from, but if I'm not an expert at their techniques and defence as well I would get raped when I sparred and fought them. I'm continually working on getting to that level of expertise and hope I get their before I'm too old heh.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[bvermillion]

Terrible technique is probably a little harsh I probably should have said lacking technique. I would prefer my chambered round kick as oppose to a muay thai round kick but thats not the point I was trying to get at. What I am trying to get at is that most TMA's use all the same techniques as mt and some but they don't condition there body to use them in as devastating as a way as mt stylists do. I guess I should just pose the question why doesn't muay thai incorporate or use regularly the followin: hook kicks, crescent kicks. axe kicks, front snap kicks and just about any open handed technique. As hard as muay thai stylist train I am positive they could take the hit without the gloves on. Like I said before most of these guys are hardcore.

[gregimotis]

I'd like to give some kudos to bvermillion at this point for successfully posting an intelligent style vs style type thread - Its tried often, seldom achieved.

[Khun Kao]

"Terrible technique is probably a little harsh I probably should have said lacking technique."

Lacking? Coming from someone who obviously has not trained in Muay Thai.

"TMA's use all the same techniques as mt"

False statement. Again, this is coming from someone who obviously not trained in Muay Thai. Anyone can throw a roundhouse kick, thrusting front kick, elbow, knee, or punch. That does not make it "the same technique" as Muay Thai.

"why doesn't muay thai incorporate or use regularly the followin: hook kicks, crescent kicks. axe kicks, front snap kicks"

Didn't I already answer this???? Hook Kicks, Crescent Kicks, Axe Kicks, Front Snap Kicks.... They ARE part of the Muay Thai arsenal. You never see them trained with and used because they were discovered to be low percentage technniques. As in there is a low probability of effectively landing this technique without giving up a serious advantage to your opponent.

Damian Mavis, by the way, is 100% correct.

[S.Anucha]

Terrible technique is probably a little harsh I probably should have said lacking technique. I would prefer my chambered round kick as oppose to a muay thai round kick but thats not the point I was trying to get at. What I am trying to get at is that most TMA's use all the same techniques as mt and some but they don't condition there body to use them in as devastating as a way as mt stylists do. I guess I should just pose the question why doesn't muay thai incorporate or use regularly the followin: hook kicks, crescent kicks. axe kicks, front snap kicks and just about any open handed technique. As hard as muay thai stylist train I am positive they could take the hit without the gloves on. Like I said before most of these guys are hardcore.

Dude www.muaythai.com you should get just a couple of techniques on this main page.

Muay Thai - "be like a snake" <--- that is a quote from my Kru in Thailand. Thaiboxers move slowly and pace accordingly in and out of the ring, fighting slow but always moving with relaxed muslces and fluidity, striking fast and hard, like a snake stalks its prey, it moves slow never taking its eyes of its prey then when it strikes! man it comes down hard and fast and that prey doesnt know what the hell hit it.... "be like a snake"

As for kicking, Muay Thai roundhouse is a very nice kick indeed!! when done right is both fast and very hard. Master Sken is a TKD specialist along with Master Toddy, both are now teaching Muay Thai and live for Muay Thai.

Techniques, TKD may have flash and stylee but in a fight mate you had better drop the flash because thet shit simply doesnt work.

Muay Thai is pure technique and relys totally on delivery of technique and your strength and stanima. Some guys (including myself ) can kick 10 full power kicks in a mater of seconds, not just leg kicks but full power kicks using the hip!

Go learn some Muay Thai then criticise its technique when you actually learn how to deliver some techniques from Muay Thai.

Empty hand system of Muay Thai, haha... man you really havnt a clue do you? I think there are something like 120 empty hand techniques in Muay Thai not to mention the locks, throws, ground work, trapping, clinch grapple, breaks, knives, swords, sticks, batons, improvised weapons... man its a very full fighting system indeed, ground work isnt BJJ but it works for self defense.... Thaiboxing is practiced in a ring! thats how you get good, by fighting, you cant expect two fighters to kill each other, well they did before 1930's, but dude if that was happening now I am afraid I'd be only a spectator and not a fighter. Only now for many people its more a sporting hobby so they dont care much for the rest of it.

[tai-gip]

Dude firstly i have to ask have you been to thai land and seen the fight there?????????


secondly less moves means more time to work on timing and evasion why block when you can counter or move???????

thirdly each art has benifits and if you as an individual have skills you can benefit from learning any art and in fact limiting yourself by believing one is best will hold you back because when you learn a particular style all you realy learn is how to defend against that style because you know all the attacks that they can use against you ./...