Thai Kick defense

[Ghost]

yeah fire cobra, you see i dont think anyone should be beyond questioning. and obviously myself included. Some things have their use, and as you can see at the start of the thread i have issues with this 28 count job.
That doesnt mean i dont respect ajarn chai, but im not going to sit back and just approve because of his name.
We have to have the balls in this game to say hang on a minute, i dont like the look of that because of xyz. Even if the person saying it is a well respected name.

martial arts suffers far too much hero worshiping in my opinion as it is and ill often willfully question stuff even if its just to provoke a thought process in others.
ie justify why its good rather than just say "well he said its good so it must be"

We have to question things. This 28 step thing is pants. Sorry, it just is and ive explained why. But im sure the other 99.9% of what Chai teaches isnt.

We need to question each other, i sure as hell dont mind being proved wrong, i learn from it and put it down to experience.

[fire cobra]

I agree Ghost,the ring version is definatly not inferior to the older versions,its strength is in its simplicity.

Double Dose,just because Ajarn Chais drills etc get critiqued doesnt mean we(or should i say i) dont respect him or think he is a bad teacher etc,all i say is that i dont see drills such as 28 count or whatever practiced in Thailands camps,or for that matter in Muay Boran as i have seen practiced.

[Ghost]

yes same here, i know a lot of tricks, Mae Mai etc and i certainly dont think that the ring game is a cut down version.
double dose i really dont know what you are on about, but please dont assume we dont understand more advanced techniques. many of us here have studied for many years and spent years training full time in thailand.

Please dont assume that ajarn chai is WAYYYYYYYY up there and we are WAYYYYYY down there.

[fire cobra]

I to teach the Mae Mai and luk Mai to my students,some of them competitive boxers others are not, all learn the tricks and the culture/customs of Muay Thai.

Its been my experience in Thailand (2.5 years there) that all thais know the Mae Mai and Luk Mai but use very few of them in favour of what will win them the fight.

Khun Kao is correct all joint attacks are legal in the Rules of Muay Thai.

Chok dee Khap.

[Khun Kao]

One Final Point....

You know very well that many defenses are attacks without defending first as a matter of fact these are usually the highest level of skill and timing, such as a cut kick.

There is defense and there is attack. Of course I realize that the lines often blur between the two. I teach many such things to my students and fighters from the outset.

Again, I will point out that you are commenting in very broad terms about a topic that had gotten a lot more specific in nature.

Respect, though, because in truth I don't disagree with your points. I just feel that your comments don't exactly fit the conversation we were having.

[Khun Kao]

Also, some of the techniques you listed have been banned from Muay Thai in it's present sporting form. Such as the teep to supporting kneee which we call stomp, as this can seriously injure the opponent.

BTW, you are wrong. This technique is still legal in Muay Thai. It's just considered to be a dirty tactic and most fighters won't use it.

[Khun Kao]

First off, please use paragraphs. It's very difficult to read your initial post.

Second, I didn't jump on anyone's bandwagon. You are talking about Muay Thai as a whole, and we were discussing one single facet of the art. Please don't jump to conclusions regarding what we know, believe, and/or teach.

Seriously, reread the thread. The conversation evolved from discussion of Round Kick Defense in general, to what we felt were the most EFFECTIVE Round Kick Defenses. In terms of practicality, I stand by everything I wrote.

However, just to make sure you and I are on the same sheet of music, when I teach Muay Thai, I teach the art as a whole. I teach everything that I know, not just what I like or prefer to fight with. I understand that just because I may personally like a particular set of techniques doesn't mean my student/fighter will. He has a different set of physical and mental attributes than I do and will therefore end up fighting differently than I. I believe in teaching someone to use ALL the tools in the toolbox, and then allowing them to choose which ones to employ.

CORRECTION: I teach all of Muay Thai's techniques save one.... I fucking hate the "Superman Punch" that has become all too popular in Muay Thai & MMA, and I refuse to teach it. Instead, I teach 3 different related techniques that in my opinion are much more effective.

ADDENDUM: I will also admit that I don't hate the "Superman Punch" anywhere near as much as I used to because I *finally* saw a fighter use it in a way I deemed EFFECTIVE within the Muay Thai context. I am now considering beginning to teach the technique the way I witnessed because, well.... it actually worked!

[Double Dose]

One more quick point. I am surprised at you Khun Kao. You know very well that many defenses are attacks without defending first as a matter of fact these are usually the highest level of skill and timing, such as a cut kick. Did I defend first when throwing a cut kick? Slow down, don't jump on this guys band wagon. He is spreading misinformation. You are better than that.
Kru Bryan

[Double Dose]

I disagree with your assessment of these techniques

Hello,
Although I do see where you are coming from. Each individuals skill level will dictate what techniques they favor or can even pull off in a real competition. To all who posted regarding the effectiveness of these techniques I would disagree. Ajarn Chai as well as many ther great trainers and fighters are skilled enough to actually pull off these techniques. You see, many techniques taught in Muay Thai are at a more advanced skill level and harder to pull off but nonetheless beautiful when they are done and done correctly. Since Muay Thai has become a sport and one that has a lot of gambling, fighters are less likely to try the techniques that require more skill as they also take more risk if they are not able to perform these higher skilled techniques in competition. Also, some of the techniques you listed have been banned from Muay Thai in it's present sporting form. Such as the teep to supporting kneee which we call stomp, as this can seriously injure the opponent. In regards to Ajarn Chais teaching style it is important to note that he, unlike most of you who have replied, is not solely focused on teaching and training fighters for the ring. He has a much greater charge and that is to pass on the art of Muay Thai which includes many more techniques than the average Muay Thai fighter will use regularly in the ring. If you all continue to limit what you teach to the simplest most effective "for the sport" techniques, then the rest of these techniques and part of the art of Muay Thai will be lost. I personally am of the belief that I am responsible to teach the art of Muay Thai to the best of my ability and just because I cannot pull off a technique does not mean that one of my students can't. As a matter of fact I have seen this many times in my career as a fighter and trainer. I have current champions that can do many things I could not when I was fighting and I am glad I taught them regardless of my personal limitations. My own son pulled off Hanuman Tawai Waen (double uppercut) two times in one of his fights. I had never seen this pulled off in an actual fight before by anyone. I thought he lost his mind but he knew exactly what he was doing and it was beautiful. I am glad I taught him this. He had the skill to do it. What if I had limited him to only one single technique would he have even had the option to pull this technique out of his bag of tricks? I think not. In regards to Ajarn Chai being "westernized" I also disagree as well. I have personally trained and fought in Thailand and the principles that Ajarn teaches where directly in line with the Thais. Even though they had no idea who my teacher was I was complimented and told I have a good teacher more than once. This was based solely on my own performance. I have also personally trained with the likes of Lertnoi Looksurin, Samart Payakaoroon, Kaensak Sor. Pleonjit, Pan Petch Sasiprapa, Pud Pad Noi Worawoot, Apideh Sit-Hiran, and the current senior trainer at my school Kru Rex who is an amazing trainer himself and even did a demo with Ajarn Chai at LAX long ago. All of these people have different understandings of the art, all of them have individual skills they are personally good at, many of them teach techniques that cannot be pulled off by average level students but they teach them anyways. All of them are principally aligned with the teachings of Ajarn Chai. All of them have different styles of teaching some better than others. Ajarn Chai has hidden many treasures in his combinations, drills etc. It is a shame if they go unnoticed by many, yet perhaps this is what he wants. Only those who actively search for the treasures within will be rewarded with a true knowledge of the amazing art of Muay Thai, perhaps it is your destiny to choose only to learn the techniques that suit you and limit what is passed on. Perhaps it is best this way. As for me I will continue to seek the treasures taught by all of the Masters of Muay Thai and try to understand not just what works for me but the principles of the art itself. Limit yourself if you must, limit your students if you will, limit the art as you see fit. Where is your belief in the art of Muay Thai? Where is your belief in your students? Where is the belief in yourself? I personally cannot limit it as it is my duty to the art that has given me so much to accept no limitations other than those that are not principally aligned. I find none of the techniques outlined to be principally incorrect. Good Luck to you all, Chok Dee,
Kru Bryan

[fire cobra]

ah ok, im not sure if i saw it and picked it up subconciously or what but i had felt like id worked it out myself if you like. But of course logical counters probably already exist anyway so i didnt try to claim it entirely as my own.

Hey Ghost i didnt take it that way either(as Tant said),i think its great you found it yourself,especially during sparring,shows you think about what your doing,nice one bro.

[the tick]

Heres a defensive measure with counter.
YouTube - Peter Aerts - Power Kicking, Tecnica N 12

[Tant01]

ah ok, im not sure if i saw it and picked it up subconciously or what but i had felt like id worked it out myself if you like. But of course logical counters probably already exist anyway so i didnt try to claim it entirely as my own.

Well... I didn't take it that way. I've seen very similar things taught in JKD and silat.

That's a good fundamental tactic...

[Ghost]

ah ok, im not sure if i saw it and picked it up subconciously or what but i had felt like id worked it out myself if you like. But of course logical counters probably already exist anyway so i didnt try to claim it entirely as my own.

Ghost,

The counter you described in a earlier post where you stepped of on a angle and punched was taught to me by my 2nd instructor,he was from Muay lopburi lineage and would use the elbow/punch to chin and knee to support leg when angling as you described.

[Tant01]

Ghost,

The counter you described in a earlier post where you stepped of on a angle and punched was taught to me by my 2nd instructor,he was from Muay lopburi lineage and would use the elbow/punch to chin and knee to support leg when angling as you described.

Yeah... that's good stuff.

[fire cobra]

Ghost,

The counter you described in a earlier post where you stepped of on a angle and punched was taught to me by my 2nd instructor,he was from Muay lopburi lineage and would use the elbow/punch to chin and knee to support leg when angling as you described.